I know that you know how I think, I know you think that you know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by tibilicus
but no
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I know that you know how I think, I know you think that you know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by tibilicus
but no
Yeah..... Agitators like Holocaust survivor Hedy Epstein, or famous novelist Henning Mankel?Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
Unarmed civilians on a civilized ship get attacked by Israeli army and end up dead, therefore my expressions are disgusting ?
I can't really compete with neo-connazism when it comes to being disgusting. Your even-worse attempt crowned with "ooooh mods got shieldz" argument had expired in some warez forum long ago. Please renew.
Screw the holocaust, the one who did it are dead or barely alive. The ones who would gladly give it another try aren't. Lefties believe every word Hamas says except when they say they want to whipe Israel from the face of the earth. You got it all wrong. Phrase removed. Sweeping characterizations of religions are not permitted, as Ser Clegane noted above. Keep it clean folks.
I'm sorry Fragony but you've never offered anything to suggest that your thought pattern is anything but hate related when it comes to the middle east. Just a couple of pages back you stated you would be happy if all the ships were sunk, and all those on board died.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Maybe if you actually explain your thought process instead of offering your musings in a form which advocates the death of civilians, I might be prepared to listen to you. You seem to paint most Muslims/Arabs with the same brush, did it ever occur to you those on board the convoy might be doing what they're doing because they think it is right? Contrary to your opinion, most on board were there to do what they saw as helping those in need, they didn't see themselves as part of some Muslim plot to shatter the very foundations of Israel and western society, despite your claims.
Even if you do hate them, how can you justify wanting all those on board to die?
Q: Is it locked in concrete, dead certain, everyone agrees, that this action took place in "International Waters", and not Israeli Territorial Waters, or its (Israel's) Contiguous Zone, or Exclusive Economic Zone?
All those zones, defined by international Maritime Law, represent various levels (and distances from the shoreline) of rights of sea control to sovereign nations. We should take care in throwing around the term "International Waters", and therefore asserting International judgment rights, when those jurisdictions are not clear in this case.
All that said: my condolences to the dead and their relatives. That better, less-violent methods of enforcing blockades couldn't be found is a shame. I had come to think that the Israeli military had come closer to conducting this kind of action casualty-free. Wishful thinking, I guess - not reality. If they were fired upon as they report, why do we not see Israeli wounded among the injured?
I extend my condolences as well. Kukri, according to what I have read there are 10 Israeli personnel injured.Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Quote:
Israel defended its actions, saying armed activists attacked Israeli soldiers as they were being lowered onto the deck by helicopter. The Israeli army said early Monday that one soldier's weapon was taken and turned against Israeli forces. It said earlier that more than 10 people had been killed but later lowered the number of dead to nine people, the Associated Press reported. At least a dozen activists had been injured, as well as 10 Israeli military personnel.
Whether the flotilla was justified is debatable (I personally think it was, due to the fact that it's purpose was an attempt to break the blockade, rather than just deliver stuff), but Israel's actions are certainly not. Was it impossible for the Israelis to snare the propellers of the ships, and then tow them to shore once the protesters had surrendered? Or was it really necessary to for the helpless, vulnerable commandos to blow away anything that moved, as a few sticks and knives were used by the fearsome civilians?
A commentary - of course still with the caveat that the information that is available is rather limited.
Israel Falls into the Trap
I see. The same article continues:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
Obviously, those worries have come to pass.Quote:
Israeli officials have for days warned that they wouldn't let the flotilla reach port in Gaza. Last week, Israel said that if the ships docked at an Israeli port first, it would allow the full shipment of humanitarian cargo to reach Gaza, after undergoing security checks.
Sensitive to the possible public-relations fallout of any confrontation, Israeli officials had debated the appropriate response to the flotilla, with many worried about a heavy-handed approach that could deepen Israel's current diplomatic woes.
'Israel fell into the trap', yes, that I think is my overriding sentiment. How could they be so unprofessional? I think everybody could've seen this coming. Israel was way too eager to respond to the provocation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
People have died, they've got the martyrs they sought, Israel has been lured into bullying again, it's a pr disaster, Israeli - Turkish relations have been undermined. All the goals of Israel's enemies have been achieved, I'd say.
That's how it looks from here, as well. With the tiny exception that the supplies were diverted to Israel first, as was their insistence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
-edit-
So Israel wins the logistics and tactics games, but loses the strategy and public-relations games.
The people in that convoy got exactly what they wanted. They deliberately provoked Israel into acting stupidly.
CR
Normal police officers have zero problems with quelling rioters and hooligans throwing stones, firebombs, etc etc without a single casaulty here in Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Israeli special forces are incapable of the same, with 5-10 years of training and experience? I don't buy that.
Forget doctor-assisted suicide, just go to Israel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Normal police officers don't rappel one by one onto boats full of hostiles attacking with crowbars and the like. Of course, sometimes American officers have problems raiding non-resisting, non-violent alleged criminals without killing small children.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
CR
A simple question here: Why did the Israeli's wait until the ships were in their territorial waters and surround them with a naval blockade? They could have demanded (rightly) that the ships be boarded and inspected, or face hostile action.
This was just plain stupid and sloppy.
* is curious too *Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
A contrary example:
For years, IRA terrorists bombed Britain's pubs and shops and eventually nearly killed the entire cabinet in the Brighton hotel bombing. Those terrorists lived among the population in both the republic and Ulster? Did Britain bomb Ireland in response? Were republican areas in the north sealed off and pulverized as happened in Gaza? Were British casualties one hundredth of Irish casualties in response?
None of this happened. Margaret Thatcher no less accepted what became known as an "acceptable level of violence" because the alternative would a) have caused domestic outrage and b) made the situation far, far worse and recruited a new army of terror. Again, one has to ask: why is Israel different?
Lolz. No, they're not normally attacked by crowbars; they're usually attacked by firebombs and molotovs - both of which are drastically more dangerous than a mechanical tool. Yet somehow, they manage not to kill a single person.... I wonder why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
You kidding? British police will beat an old guy to death just for standing near the parade...Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Okay? Could you please show me some proof that british cops kill around 10 people per demonstration...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
This isn't Israel's first rodeo so it's hard to believe they could have miscalculated the pr implications that badly; maybe they just don't care or feel they can win the pr game no matter what.:shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
And shoot brazilians rushing to catch the tube
I imagine they were confident of finding terrorist material and all sorts of dual use stuff that kind of thing. The fact the Israeli ambassodor was on the six o clock news here tells me they might have only realised how far up that proverbial sewage filled creek they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
Maybe Israel would think more about pr implications, if a certain superpower would stop vetoing UN resolutions taken against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
Maybe there is something to say to get rid of the veto power for the permanent members of the security council. That is, if the intention is to have a UN that is to be taken serious.
Way to miss the point; the Israelis were vastly outnumbered by people with deadly weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Oh, and US (Boston) police manage to kill rioters, or rather bystanders, who aren't even attacking police, just rioting and causing some property damage.
CR
Well the British aren't having to blockade foreign assisstance to a terrorist/paramilitary/resistance/whatever movement on thein own soil. When that was happening, and the stakes were higher, they killed 14 on Bloody Sunday...Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Don't mess with the bobbies, we might let people think they are these quaint old people that occasionaly shout "oi oi" and chase people with their batons... they are hardcore.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
"The people in that convoy got exactly what they wanted. They deliberately provoked Israel into acting stupidly." Ehm? Israel's forces are supposed to show some professionalism; not be a gun-ho militia that likes to shoot people to assert their presence, just because this the Wild, Wild Mid East you know. Or in other words: Israel is supposed to display military force proportionate to the threat (which it spectacularly failed to do), and Israel is supposed to abide by international law (as it is, they committed an act of piracy: where are the Russians when you need 'em?).
So provocation is not an argument; and I don't think it can be used to excuse blatantstupiditybrutality on Israel's part. Of any kind. Comparisons to police officers from the police brutality thread only serves to underline that this behaviour is exactly the same and every bit as outrageous for it.
They should've waited till they were in national waters and then done exactly what they did.