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I just want to say that this dialogue between HoreTore and Tellos is exactly what the American education system needs. Discussion on what exactly the students should be learning and how to go about it. This kind of discussion never occurs in the greater discourse in America. Go on HoreTore and Tellos, this is great to follow.
Leaves me wondering, what is being discussed in the "greater discourse in America"?Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
God.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
90% complaining about teacher pay, 10% reading stories like the following and blaming teacher pay for it:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&client=ubuntu
http://www.accountabletalk.com/2010/...sequences.html
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/met...ion_teach.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/18/ny...erland&emc=rss
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/ed...dd4&ei=5087%0A
Oh, HoreTore here is a post on a website I go on, where a guy said he is a high school teacher in America and got suggestions on how to make the classes "better" read his list he was given to make the class more "effective":
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comment...uggestions_we/
God in the science classrooms (although this is mostly just for extreme conservative or southern towns).Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Censorship in english classrooms across the entire country.
How can people expect to get better qualified personnel if they're not prepared to pay for it? How can people believe that lowering pay will keep the best and make the worst leave, instead of the other way around?
But it's not all bad over there ACIN, here's a really good article I used in the last paper I wrote:
http://teachers.net/gazette/wordpres...-from-day-one/
Btw, this "overpaid slob" is sitting alone on a saturday night working on school papers... With no extra pay of any kind, of course.
The goal for conservatives is in deconstructing the state's hold over their children, including the "brainwashing" education system. The goal of lowering wages is to make sure the teachers are terrible so the kids don't learn. That way the parent's beliefs are held and not challenged. Of course it is covered up under the guise of fiscal responsibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
And yes, it really isn't all that bad. Like I said, we are not completely ass-backwards. But we are rapidly falling behind. Even in your own article you have shown the last paragraph says this:
Connecting with every student every day is impossible. Connecting with some students every day is not. Using this simply exercise, whether it’s the beginning of the year or halfway through your year, will help give you the tools you need to make those meaningful connections with your students. Those connections will help you differentiate your instruction, which in turn increases your effectiveness as a teacher.
This exercise and tool for helping students continues to get less effective as classroom sizes increase dramatically. Overcrowding is one of many problems facing the education system and this tool essentially becomes pointless when you start to have 40-45 kids a class with 5 classes a day. My classes were all in the ~35 student range, with increases to 47 being discussed.
My knowledge of the american system comes mainly from those relevant to my studies, ie. people like Bruner and this guy. And I use them as my main source, really, I use Norwegians and such mainly as back-up material. Because it's good stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
I won't have to deal with backwards religoous stuff like you describe, however, and no censorship either, my hands are pretty much free when it comes to controversial issues.
Overcrowding was an issue in the early 2000's here too, but it has mostly been fixed by now, as the effectivization policies that was started have been scrapped and the usual class size is 20, though teachers typically teach in two classes at the same grade, thus giving each teacher around 40 students in 2-3 subjects.
I blame this on corporate governerning entering the public sector. Things have to be "accountable" and we should provide some numbers, some statistics to prove that we are going forward. But what the politicians fail to see is that you can't introduce incentives, bonuses and such in education. It just doesn't work, not everything in life can be turned into a statistic.
Quoted for truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
But yeah, the religious factor and the self censorship are two of many problems. To be honest, the parents are a major reason why the system isn't as great as it could be. Stupid parents try to perpetuate stupid students.
If you want to know what books are trying to be withheld from students by stupid parents, here is the wikipedia article with data from 1990-1999, so a bit out of date, but not really since I doubt these long controversial books are suddenly ok.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...oks_in_the_U.S.
EDIT: Actually, here is the ala.org website that tabulates the most challenged books list. Here is the direct link and on the left you can click on each individual year and by the decade.
http://www.ala.org/ala/issuesadvocac...nged/index.cfm
My head is hurting from all the stupidity.
How many hundreds of thousands of girls started to enjoy reading after they read books like catcher in the rye, twilight, etc etc? And they want to take that away from them? Nonsense.
Also, the nature pf the school should be to challenge peoples perceptions, not to conform them. If you believe x is true, the school should question you with y. The school is supposed to challenge assumptions, as that requires people to reflect on their beliefs instead of blindly following something.
Yeah, welcome to the American education debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
lol, the nature of school to many Americans is to memorize useless facts that you don't need in the real world pushed by "liberals" so you can get a job. CAN YOU TELL ME WHEN I AM EVER GOING TO USE CALCULUS IN REAL LIFE? I'M NOT GOING TO BE AN ENGINEER! NO? THEN WHY AM I LEARNING THIS HORETORE!?!?!?!Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Connecting maths education with the real world is a very important aspect. A lot of people feel that maths is too abstract, that it doesn't represent anything in the real world. Of course, it does do that, and focus should be on making sure our students make that connection.
Calculus and all the other abstract maths subjects are an excellent way of teaching someone how to work through a problem. We rarely have all the relevant information we need to make a decision so we must work through the problem logically.
There is your best reason for calculus in school.
13-year old Mike is far from satisfied with that answer I'm afraid ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
True but if he went on to college he will end up agreeing with me eventually, we should be attempting to show how important problem solving is in later life and calculus is a good start.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
No, relating it to their life as it is right now is much better, you can't expect a 13-year old to think about his future that much. Why talk about how it is important later, when you can relate it to the real world they live in right now?Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
I was educated in the public schoo system and I came out ok, of course one of my teachers almost ran me over in her new BMW once
I'm hoping to sell my car by friday.....won't get a new one either....Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
But shouldn't you make enough money with a four year education, performing a vital service to society, to drive a middle-price car like a bmw?
Technically, word problems are supposed to be relating the math to the real world and most of my fellow students will agree that word problems are the most challenging/frustrating.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Not just technically - in every way. 2 + 2 means two apples and two apples, making that clear is vital.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
It was a joke,,,,,come down marxistQuote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Well, when the situation they give you isn't realistic, then it loses it's purpose. Then again, I have only come across few books with questions that were not realistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
EDIT: Again, my point though is that younger students are less receptive to the word problems then any other in my experience.
When I was in High School my Spanish II teacher sat on his computer all class period long while the rest of the class messed around and talked. Some days he didn't even bother to hand out assignments, or the assignment was watching The Goonies and taking notes on the movie. I was pissed, because I really wanted to learn Spanish. Most of the other kids loved it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I remember a lot of students complaining about word problems in my math classes too. In my opinion, this is part of the problem, US students aren't challenged enough, so they get so used to things being easy that when something is challenging they back down and don't want to use their brains to figure it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
But parents will get angry when their kids are not getting B's and A's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuchip
What are these mythical challenging word problems you speak of? As opposed to what other problems?Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Students don't like not having the data and the function right in front of them. At least none of my fellow high school students liked that. When you tell them this is a compound interest function, they want every question to start with them giving you the function right off the bat and then asking you to plug the number they give you into the one variable the function has. Heaven forbid you give them a word problem that says, "You have 1000 dollars in the bank, what is the difference in the account between the interest gained at 9% after 5 years and 4.5% after 10 years?" HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO WORK WITH THIS?!!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
So to sum up once in a single question the problem difficulty exceeds that of primary school, you've lost them? (Once you've broken down the problem to its component problems you get to something a primary school kid can work out.)
Only the stupid and the lazy. But from my experiences in high school, that seems to be a good portion of the students. Like I said before, the school system isn't completely bad. But word problems like the one I just made up are really complained about as if they are the most terrible thing ever. Much less so in the final years of high school though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
Of course I knew that Strike, but it raised an interesting question ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
....And that is the reason why the focus should be on word problems ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name