[Official Testing] Updated EDU with all the "unofficial" fixes and many others

An update with new infantry speeds should be coming soon. We've got an agreed approach on everything bar the lights, which we're testing now to find some appropriate values. The intent is faster than cataphracts, and thus potentially difficult to catch with anything other than light cavalry or other skirmishers.

Which battle difficulty setting are the EB2 settings balanced for? I usually play with H battle but my results will not be very meaningful if you are using M or VH.
Regards
Vermin

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Originally Posted by Vermin

Which battle difficulty setting are the EB2 settings balanced for? I usually play with H battle but my results will not be very meaningful if you are using M or VH.
Regards
Vermin

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I always assume M, and that's what I always play on. The AI getting hardcoded bonuses isn't necessarily very helpful, testing-wise.

EDIT6 is up - wholesale changes to infantry speeds; phalanxes are untouched; non-phalanx non-skirmish infantry have a uniform speed, skirmishers are faster. Additionally, new values for testing for Akontistai, Sphendonetai and Thanvare Parsig (Persian Archers) - I'd appreciate particular observations on how those three do. Also a new descr_projectiles.txt, make sure you get that too.

Given the testing nature of those three units as stand-ins for their type, I'd recommend not using this one for a campaign.

I would also add to please test them from all angles, and to note the direction of the shot, if the frontage of your missile-men is wider than the enemy formation, etc.

As a concession to those who do want to play a campaign with the updated EDU, I've done a version with unmodded test units - ie Akontistai, Sphendonetai and Persian Archers are back to their usual values in this one.

EDIT 7A:

This gives an equally balanced play experience for all units, but won't let you test our new thinking on how to do skirmishers, which isn't consistently applied across all units.

I'm using MOROS FASTER BATTLES

Speed of skirmishers feels nice. Now i can put them in front of my battle line and not feel like they will just get charged. Skirmish mode is a bit more reliable now. At first it feels strange to see that kind of speed for infantry, now i enjoy the faster skirmisher tactics.

The 3 new idea units have more reliable casualties per volley and more total casualties inflicted.
The old idea units have varying casualties per volley and less total casualties inflicted.

'Casualties inflicted' test results - first type is from behind a battle line. Second type is a typical chaotic battle.

Attachment 15077

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Originally Posted by Chap

I'm using MOROS FASTER BATTLES

Speed of skirmishers feels nice. Now i can put them in front of my battle line and not feel like they will just get charged. Skirmish mode is a bit more reliable now. At first it feels strange to see that kind of speed for infantry, now i enjoy the faster skirmisher tactics.

The 3 new idea units have more reliable casualties per volley and more total casualties inflicted.
The old idea units have varying casualties per volley and less total casualties inflicted.

'Casualties inflicted' test results - first type is from behind a battle line. Second type is a typical chaotic battle.

Attachment 15077

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Very interesting, particularly that the effect of the changes on archers and javelineers is pretty big, but on slingers is quite small (I suspect the removal of ap has something to do with that - though javelineers lost ap too).

javelineers are 240 per unit

slingers are 120 per unit

that might have something to do with it

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Originally Posted by Chap

javelineers are 240 per unit

slingers are 120 per unit

that might have something to do with it

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Sizes are relatively consistent within a unit type; I don't think that explains why archers and javelineers roughly doubled their casualties compared to other similar units, but slingers only added about 10%.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Sizes are relatively consistent within a unit type; I don't think that explains why archers and javelineers roughly doubled their casualties compared to other similar units, but slingers only added about 10%.

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well remember that the battle_config has already increased the accuracy of the missiles from 0.33 to 0.85 or so, and attack is about doubled for both, and missile mass for both is lower than before. balancing that out is that missile radii are much smaller, and in the case of the Akontistai, accuracy is decreased (in descr_projectile). It ends up doubling casualties for both.

with slingers, the attack is much higher, but ap is removed, and mass is increased (so that it works more like a bullet than an arrow). With that in mind, according to Chap's data, slingers armed with glandes are so far the most efficient long-distance killers. the most efficient overall however are the javelins, but of course you have to get up close for them to be effective.

Javelins being deadliest, but you have to get really close, is a very good trade-off. That's exactly as it should be, risk v reward.

i just did Balearic slingers vs scutari spears

2-4 per volley

82 total


and i realized would Drapani and Gaisatoi move as fast as skirmishers now?

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Originally Posted by Chap

and i realized would Drapani and Gaisatoi move as fast as skirmishers now?

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No, they're regular infantry and so have a speed of 0.83.

Big update coming soon, which should be used in concert with z3n's pathfinding/BAI changes. To give some more details of what to expect:

• Some tidying up of stats; there were about ten units who hadn't been updated to the new morale setup (ie it was far too high).
• Better unit cohesion, especially infantry, when used with z3n's pathfinding updates.
• A complete overhaul of missiles; all skirmisher, missile and precusor-javelin using units had both their unit stats and their projectiles amended. No more ap for missile weapons. Archer and slinger ranges are more realistic. Users of the ankyle/amentum get an attack bonus on javelin throws, which needs feedback.
• A revised approach to elephants.

Of the things we've been looking to address, that leaves only chariots. In the upcoming formal release, you should see all these changes (possibly tweaked again if we get lots of detailed feedback), plus some new units.

I'm eager to see what you have achieved, come on, team! You are great!

New EDU and D_P in the original post, a host of pretty significant changes, building on the feedback from the last iteration:

• Some errors fixed; Ethiopian archers now have a loose formation; some units with the wrong morale values adjusted
• Infantry speeds all adjusted; phalanxes are slow (but not as slow as they were); regular infantry share the same speed; skirmishers/missile infantry are faster
• A wholesale update to charging distances, which combined with z3n's pathfinding should improve infantry cohesion
• A complete overhaul of missiles; all skirmisher, missile and precusor-javelin using units had both their unit stats and their projectiles amended. No more ap for missile weapons. Archer and slinger ranges are more realistic. Users of the ankyle/amentum get an attack bonus on javelin throws, which needs feedback.
• Increase in the number of soldiers for the Petere Fleet from 15 to 18 - which should skew auto-calc in their favour.
• Elephant updates didn't make it in time, I'm afraid, I was keen to get this out rather than wait for them.

Sorry to anyone who just started a campaign with EDIT8 - I've now sorted all the queries out and EDIT9 is fairly close to final in most respects. EDIT10 with elephant stats may be early tomorrow, it's being worked on now and I'm off to bed.

One area in particular I'd like feedback (and will be testing myself) is javelin cavalry, but also javelineers more generally (skirmishers and precursors). A few times I've looked in on them, they've not been as effective (or consistent in throwing their missiles) as they were a while back.

Could people take a look and report their observations (referencing which unit in particular you tried)?

EDIT10 with the much-anticipated revision to elephant stats. Most of the rest is unchanged from EDIT9.

Hi people:

I've just started a new campaign as the AS to test as many units as possible in a single game. This made me question this: are unit upkeep costs intended? I felt a bit surprised when comparing hellenistic units with their eastern counterparts, for example:

Gund - i - palta: around 320 shinies

(the most similar unit i can think at this time)- Euzonoi: 129 shinies

It can be that eastern units, for some reason, where truly more expensive to maintain, but if this is not the case (I've always thougt that eastern infantry levies were treated as fodder) will this be changed in the future?

Thanks, and sorry if this has been explained elsewhere, this is not my native language and I find some difficulties exploring around the ORG.

And again thanks for the tremendous amount of work you are doing, team, remember: "Finis coronat opus"

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Originally Posted by Saigrin

Hi people:

I've just started a new campaign as the AS to test as many units as possible in a single game. This made me question this: are unit upkeep costs intended? I felt a bit surprised when comparing hellenistic units with their eastern counterparts, for example:

Gund - i - palta: around 320 shinies

(the most similar unit i can think at this time)- Euzonoi: 129 shinies

It can be that eastern units, for some reason, where truly more expensive to maintain, but if this is not the case (I've always thougt that eastern infantry levies were treated as fodder) will this be changed in the future?

Thanks, and sorry if this has been explained elsewhere, this is not my native language and I find some difficulties exploring around the ORG.

And again thanks for the tremendous amount of work you are doing, team, remember: "Finis coronat opus"

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Indeed, costs need reworking. It's outside my remit; Ibrahim and I do battle mechanics, but they are being revised as we speak.

Update to the first post with an optional EDB update.

EDIT: Apologies to anyone who downloaded a couple of hours ago, I'd missed some commas, so they wouldn't work. The two in there now should be fine.

One more associated file added so that you are using the same values as the current build: the battle_config.xml. It's in a zip in the first post, just unzip it into the same place as the other files. Kill rates for missiles has been increased (from 0.35 to 0.75), and for melee slightly decreased (from 0.35 to 0.3).

EDIT11 now available, a host of small changes, this is very similar now to the current build:

• Caetratii now have the correct weapon; small change to Kombaragoues defensive stats
• Myriad morale changes, a collection of about ten units with old values that were much too high

New kill rates in the first post (0.45 for missiles, 0.325 for melee), which should do for now. There's a big mod-pack being prepared at the moment which will supercede all these changes (including some more EDU tweaks), but I'll leave you all with this version for now rather than badgering you with constant little updates.

EDIT12 - I know I promised no more, but some material changes in quite a few places:

• Numerous sword/knife discrepancies resolved
• Carthaginian Sacred Band, KH Bodyguard and Epilektoi Hoplitai now equal in attack stats to Hypaspistai
• A few more morale tweaks
• The two Kretan units now have the correct secondary weapon stats
• Some stat_ground changes for Celtic and Germanic units

This should be the last one of these I issue before the big update bundle, which may be a week away.