Add FF to that one too, eventhough a few of us still host 15k games as we try to not to focus on one special setting and running the risk of becoming overspecialized (and predicatable)Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Printable View
Add FF to that one too, eventhough a few of us still host 15k games as we try to not to focus on one special setting and running the risk of becoming overspecialized (and predicatable)Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
I apologize for the whole exclusive "skilled players" comment, it was a joke but a somewhat poor one. I've gained a great deal of respect for FF during this whole florin war, you dont always win but that does not turn you away from competing at different levels, you people have a good fighting spirit.
The trouble with low florins is that a proper decision on an unprepared enemy can result in a completely resounding victory. Many do not see "skill" in this, it did not require enough clicking and goes too fast. However, when you are prepared and specialized enough to take on cav, missiles, and infantry, battles can last a very long time and require a good deal of thought.
This debate is older than Swoosh it seems, as she has either failed to follow old posts or is 'back' so resently as to not to know better.. But to declair that playing at 10k (or less) requires skill and 15K does not, smacks of out-right aristrocratic snobbiry, "I'm better cause I play at 5-10k", pardon moders but thats bullshit.. 5k is DIFFERENT not better...Swoosh tops the poll out at 15k as if thats high florins, it tops out at 99999k; and a load of people host that amount. I dont host at that amount but I dont look down some long nose at them for it...Ive played at 5k 7k 10k and others,....I ran many posts on it and stated that low florins gives many advantages to hill campers and clans fighting ronin and noobs that dont know that they are walking into a sucker game. The people calling 5 7 or 10 THE florin level ive seen dont host 1v1 games attacking any sort of hills. Low florins shifts the imbalances of the game to different units nothing more, The statement that people playing at 15k just rush at each other like oxes is just about the stupidest statement ive seen on these forums.
imo.
different florins means different ball games.
there is definitely no correlation between florin level and how skilled a player is.. if you do not win as often @ 15k Swoosh, then maybe you are not as polished in a particular skill-set at that florin level, e.g. Kongamato's collide sword lines and _maybe_ win by flanking as an example.
quoting Kongamatothat is just too sweeping a statement.. trying performing that 'skill' on Magy's balanced army @ 15k.. I'm pretty sure you will need REAL planning and tactics than simply rushing in the 8 swords and flanking with some cav.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
winning 100% @ 5k doesnt make one a truly all-round skilled player.. just skilled @ 5k. at least in my definition, the ultimate truly skilled understands the game so well, that (s)he can win at any florin levels, and exploiting all the game's 'flaws' *not cheat*.
its a pretty bad culture to see players with preference for certain settings condemning the other camps. it is not constructive to the process of making the TW engine more appealing to most, if not all, of the current and potential players.
I'll retract the "skill" comments, as they may have offended some people.
It looks like a large portion of the community sees skill and victory as nothing but the exploitation of a game engine. If that is true, then maybe I ought to go play another game because it would be no different from this one and would probably have better graphics and service.
My opinion at this time is that the lower florin settings place a greater emphasis and diversity in employing and defeating methods of protection from the combined threats of cavalry, missiles, and infantry, encouraging creativity in overcoming a unique set of obstacles every game. The lower morale makes everything more volatile, and as a result there are great punishments in assaulting defensive positions and not protecting oneself properly. The problem lies there, as many do not last very long if they make a mistake or attack a hill with equal strength. To me, high morale seems like fighting with pillows, low morale like fighting with knives, on most occasions it's going to end faster and is not very accessible to amateurs. It is a loaded game if you do not know what to look out for.
like i've said.. being able to handle low morale army doesnt make one better, or more profession than one more apt in handling higher morale army... only when you also beat him at his homecourt... its like saying a thai kickboxer is more professional than a taiji master because his games is faster, inferring that he needs to think and react faster, and therefore is more tactically surperior? hmm....Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
are 15K games less tactical than 10K or 5k games? It seems to be the main point of your arguement.. I think it is too much to generalise it so.
Oh my aristocratic snobbery? i dont win as much at 15k games? seems i cant have an opinion without either of these comments coming out, A word for u guys its not snobbery and i win as much at both games types and lose as much at both game types, as for the highest set being 99999 florins dont be daft we both know those sort of games dont even come into the equasion. I find that 15k games are won by good army selection and i dont get a feeling that i won at 15k because i played better, but at lower florins i get that feeling of oh i did well there. I just feel that at 15k you can make 3-4 mistakes in a game and still win it just seems silly to me, But hey who am i to judge i am a snob if you want to play these sort of games thats upto you, But i prefer to lose if i make mistakes.
And the part about low florins give advantage to hill campers, hills give advantage to hill campers, anyway its good to give opponents advantages in games especially when weve been around as long as alot of us here have, Play the wolves 2v2 in a 9k game and you shall receive 1k extra for each player. Not because we dont respect these players but because we choose to defend so that there is not a situation of camping and the battles are fought on an even scale. As we will advance to meet our opponents.
Sorry if i seem abit snippy but the way your post is worded annoyed me, not once do you address me in your post and talk about swoosh as if i wasent part of the thread, i may have been away along time lahill but ive been reading the forums alot. It doesent take long to get the general feeling of the game although i admit i have a bit to go untill im back to my best. I dont disrespect players who play 15k (kanuni plays it all the time) i just feel theres not as much skill involved (not to say the players who play it dont have skill) it just seems too much of a cushion or safety net for me
Swooooooooooooooooooooooooosh
And with that said i shall pull out of the florin debate. I did not start this thread to create arguements it was started because i was coming back to the game and wasent sure the florin levels being played in vi. i shall have broadband on tuesday and shall be able to host my own games, so i guess it wont effect me in anyway if theres alot of 15k games around.
I have to say I'm a little torn between the two sentiments here. For one I agree with tootee that this is a rather sweeping statement, but then I also agree with Swoosh and am perfectly sure she can win a lot in 15k games too.
Handling low morale armies is a great skill, but it's also a fact that still the army selection is a great factor. You can play as well as you want, if you took a non standard army just for the fun of it (which I do mostly), and your opponent has calculated the perfect 5k army (or found it by trial and error), chances are you will lose most of the times.
I, for my part, try to play at different florin levels because it's more fun and variable, and because there's nothing more I hate than seeing the same maps and standard armies clash over and over again. Sometimes you just look at your and your allies' vs the opponents' armies and know who's going to win right from the start. That's just bleah
But to each their own, I'd say.
PS: I really like that for example Wolves attack even when defenders. It adds some realism, because who said defenders have just to sit and watch the enemy approach?
Having played a number of 5k games (low morale) you would have to slow not to note that the units of choice are fedual knights, fedual foot knights ect, all units with normal moral....oops... did I say normal? (back to the pillow fights!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif I played a game where I had such units and the opponent had MAA ect, I did not need to bother with flanking, just frontal attack and wait for his men to reach the rout thresh-hold, lots of skill there I guess....and plz call me lahll (not La Hill), Its hard for Indo-Europeans to pronounce but it is a single syilible, close to lill, or lall, And excuse my own heated retorts on this post, I tend to reply in kind, without much thought to diplomacy....
Id have to disagree with the 5k statement have u played amp at 5k? not a foot knight or feudal knight in sight.
Yeah, he crushed my FFKs with his Byzantine Infantry... Eventhough I managed to rout the first of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
His only 'pillowed' units were his Varangians, and the battle was more or less over when they entered the fight.
I was mightily impressed by him then.
He handled the morale better than me and outplayed me greatly. It was all about skill...
Yeah, but have you played him at 15k or back in STW/MI? I am sure you would be equally impressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
That is what tootee is talking about, a skilled player will outclass you on any florin level. It proves nothing except the obvious (i.e. AMP is skilled player).
Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif Back in 1.1 we played in the 12-25 range... now it seems we play in the 5-15 range... Sadly we play 5k as often as we played 12k, not much thus http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
I personally do not believe in overspecialization and I think we grow better just by playing at different settings all the time, as that forces you think about what really matters as well as relying on improvisation and flexibility rather than relying on the same army composition over and over again on the same settings.
When florins change, the only two things that need to change with it are timing and composition
Yes, I know his skills.
Never played him before that though. And I was sure I would lose, until I began to rout his forces, but then he managed to do something I haven't been able to do with low morale troops in 5k games... stop a massrout before it became one. And I'm basically what you can call a 5k player, I'm very observant towards my morale.
Before 5k games it didn't help me much, but now it does.
There is no need to be fielding units with morale higher than 8 in this game, and highly defensive units such as spears can be much lower than 8. 10k is all you really need for that. It's not a question of attacking hills. It's a question of achieving a balance between attrition and position. If you can charge into the back of a unit with one of the stronger cav types and that unit doesn't rout, you are playing with too much morale.
Amp doesent really play 15k ive played with him almost every night for a week now and hes never hosted 15k he prefers the low florin games. his fav is 5k i think not sure.
Yeah, I know, he prefers games in which he has a chance to chainrout more than one armies. This is really difficult or near impossible at 15k. But trust me he played a lot of 15k games. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
Hi All,
My favorite amount of florins is 5k - 8k, but i'll play higher just to get in a game.
That's right i like lower florin games where you have the chance to chain rout armies. It kinda sucks in the higher florin games where you fight one army and both your allies lost that most likely to lose also. I like to atleast have a small chance of winning when i'm out numbered about 2 to 1...
Would be even easier to chain rout armies if we had powerful missile units as strong as the muskets in stw and stw:mi. Also for lower florins we are missing the wonder spear that can drop cav fast enough. Right now spears are really just holding units, which they should also drop cav faster, especially when they are charged by cav head on.
totally agree on this point.. its pretty unrealistic when I see a CMAA@v3 fighting other units, and in came a cav at its rear.. its took like 15-20 sec *size around 50* for it to start routing? not too sure of the duration but i feel its too unrealistic long, even for seasoned and elite soldiers. i prefer they rout in 4 to 6sec... i mean.. for sure CMAA@v3 should be real elite soldiers.. but I dont think they have eyes on their back and fight facing backward as proficiently as frontally? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
maybe its not that morale is too high? cos frontally its still feel ok for CMAA@v3 .. higher morale mean the unit tends to fight to a smaller size *frontally* before starting to waver.
probably double the penalty/bonus for attack in the rear/flank may improve the gameplay *at 12 to 15K*.
It finally dawned on me that there is no such thing as 'best' when it comes to florin level, era, map, faction, version of Total War, and few other things.
I went back to MTW and found lots of very high florin games, and enjoyed them immensely. Louis has convinced me that low florin games make spears more balanced, and improve other aspects of game play. Lahll correctly points out that at low florin games morale makes a big difference on hills and in desert or snow.
What matters most to me now is to have fun and to connect with others in the online community.
The strategies and tactics that are best vary between factions, terrain, and florin levels. It is in learning the tricks, and sharing them, that I find the most pleasure.
It matters more how we respond to the various situations, how we use the troops we can afford on the terrain upon which we fight.
ichi