Armour in the desert

I see you don't offer solutions to the problems I presented. You outline some premises under which this army will work, that's why I answered to most of them in my previous post. Still, my own answers are also circumstantial, but more than enough to show that this english army is somewhat less than "undefeatable".

But for debate's sake, I'll add a few clarifying notes.

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V0 lbs are very cheap. How will I be forced to attack unless your turks with tons of arrows? If you are it wont matter as ill run you over.

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They cost more than any type of archer without any upgrade at all, while having the same amount of ammo.

About the range:

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No I out range them If he tries to get them in range my cav will chase them back or kill them.

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I sorry I don't see how outranging normal archers makes them unable to shoot at your inf while having a) hybrid archers/HA in support b) 1 or 2 extra archers in reserve or two lines of archers,one to shoot the inf, while the other the cav thus providing depth for retreat and still being able to shoot incoming cav c) saharans/alans,faster than english cav, certainly capable of covering the archers.

Also the fact that

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Your wrong again. Are we talking 10k here? I havent seen anyone use v3 jhi in 10k. Meanwhile my clan are v4 w2 beleive me they go through anything at that level in 10k. Also all they have to do is engage the enemy inf while my cav flanks both sides.

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shows that the case is reserved. v3 JHI I never mentioned, it was JI v3 - JHI v3 cannot be purchased at 10k without any suicidal tendencies, I think it's quite clear to everyone :balloon2: .OTOH highland clansmen v4 wpn2 are certainly a risky investment of 1477 florins. They very vulnerable to missiles and can be brought to a halt by the much cheaper JIv3, who ,if engaged frontally, will deplete the clansmen # of men to over 70% or over 75% of their initial size by MS v3 wpn1.
I also see that you presume total inactivity on the part of your opponent. Why are you so sure that the cav will flank both sides while your inf remains blissfully engaged into a 1v1 duel. If you face any faction with cav ~;) (and you have paid so much for the highland clansmen) then we can safely assume that the opponent's will be superior or he 'll have more inf unit of decent quality.

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Check the stats they are fast and will run circles around camels. In fact they will rout camels if you can get them in the open

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No I think you confuse RTW with VI...there isn't any special ability called "avoid-the-camel circle" ~D and no english cav is fast, after one billion games you should 've known that m8 hehe The camels don't need to start chasing the cav as I said,they can hold the enemy cav and win it if it closes in, and so provide support from the ,presumable, numerically superior inf - I don't like repeating myself ~;)

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Then you are clueless and havent the foggiest idea of what you speak. I have one I would say over a thousand battles in the desert with this army and I would venture win over 90% of such games. Again ask anyone who has faced me in the desert. I really am quite fearsome ~D

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Yep, that's me , a clueless poor fellow :bow:

BTW I'm open to this:

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Well, well, well - the only way to find it out that you two get together in an online fight (maybe a tournament of a few battles) and see who is better Each one of you can pick the favourite faction and you can do different priced battles

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Steppesinland03 high 10k rock desert summer- surely this setting isn't representative of the qualities a desert army should have and I'm not fond of basing my statements on such "lab" environment games but it'll be fun ~;)
..provided that GS is active again.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

V0 lbs are very cheap. How will I be forced to attack unless your turks with tons of arrows? If you are it wont matter as ill run you over.

...
Stuff
...
I pwnzer j00
...
ENTER THE PH34R!!!!
...

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I hope you like the abbr. quote.

Just FYI, camels suck and will autorout in the open. You get what you pay for.

4 Longbows, 4 CK, 4 FK, 4 Clansman, huh?


That's hard to combo without mass archer hybrid spam... I think there's a way to beat it without archer camping since archer camping is annoying and not all that effective. I don't play online for I have 56K so, this is all theoretical.

4 Ghazi, 4 Ottoman Infantry or JI, 4 AHC, 4 Ghulam with suitable upgrades may be able to work. The Cavalry serve as the real killers while the Clansmen are auxilliary high carnage pinning infantry. The Longbows cover as both and as a tertiary melee infantry. I'm approaching this from head on. Ghazis and Ottomans are the main force. Basically, the idea is to try and hack through the cav using armor piercing units while countering your knights with comparable cav and armor piercing infantry.

I doubt it'd work against a good player, but hell, why not?

antisocialmunky
Let us have our bragging game, it is overly needed these days in VI mp.

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Just FYI, camels suck and will autorout in the open. You get what you pay for.

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Well how can you prove this?

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4 Longbows, 4 CK, 4 FK, 4 Clansman

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No, this isn't a desert army, unless you about to rush immediately, so you' d better load up on the FMAA and CMAA as well. CK will get toasted.

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4 Ghazi, 4 Ottoman Infantry, 4 AHC, 4 Ghulam with suitable upgrades may be able to work.

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It depends on who controls it;)

56k isn't a reason for not playing online, I started playing on 56k and I had no probs (not that I have moved technologically a lot heh).

Just go online and fight it out ffs! Oh and show us replays afterwards ~:)


CBR

and let's keep it friendly folks... ~D

DE

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Originally Posted by L'Impresario

antisocialmunky
56k isn't a reason for not playing online, I started playing on 56k and I had no probs (not that I have moved technologically a lot heh).

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I have a PCI graphics card, those two put together make the normal 32 unit battles with normal and small lag.

Well, I thought he said several high charging cav, I thought knights, but I guess Hobs and Mounteds then. I don't think he posted a list, but then again, I skimmed through it.

As for camels. The raw power of heavy cavalry means that if each unit has the same valour upgrades, the heavy cavalry will win. Though, I was refering to single player when I said that so I take that back since camels are cheaper and can face down knights in multiplayer since it's not based on the general.

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I sorry I don't see how outranging normal archers makes them unable to shoot at your inf while having a) hybrid archers/HA in support b) 1 or 2 extra archers in reserve or two lines of archers,one to shoot the inf, while the other the cav thus providing depth for retreat and still being able to shoot incoming cav c) saharans/alans,faster than english cav, certainly capable of covering the archers.

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Actually I have three options. I can shoot your archers and destroy them without you ever getting in range or I can move up 1 lb and start shooting your second line. Maybe you can get 1 or 2 archers on it but I will be killing much more expensive men. I then bring up another and then another. I can also use all 4 at once . Again florin wise which is really what counts in mp you will lose far more money. If you try to move your archers up my cav will kill them. saharans and alans are as fast as the english cav but no faster. Besides your going to take camels right. You only get 16 units.

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I think it's quite clear to everyone .OTOH highland clansmen v4 wpn2 are certainly a risky investment of 1477 florins. They very vulnerable to missiles and can be brought to a halt by the much cheaper JIv3, who ,if engaged frontally, will deplete the clansmen # of men to over 70% or over 75% of their initial size by MS v3 wpn1.

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No risk at all. You wont hit them with missles because I save them for the coup de grass. They are way to the rear. Again nothing stops them I dont care what you believe.

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If you face any faction with cav (and you have paid so much for the highland clansmen) then we can safely assume that the opponent's will be superior or he 'll have more inf unit of decent quality.

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All my cav is fast and 6 att and def. All they have to do is keep yours where my Lbs and clan can get to them.

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No I think you confuse RTW with VI...there isn't any special ability called "avoid-the-camel circle"

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Since I dont play RTW I doubt im confused on this matter. The facts are that camels are slow as hell. If you take say 4 their good only for defense. Any attempt to send them out will result in me doubling them. Also camels run from Clansmen like the plague.

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Yep, that's me , a clueless poor fellow

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Look once more sp doesnt prepare you for mp very well. Ask anyone who jumped into mp after playing sp for quite sometime how bad they got their butts kicked in mp. Its a different animal. Im not a great player but that desert army makes up for my lack of skill. I dont win anywhere near as many battles on other maps. Im telling you that my post count is small compared to the number of battles Ive fought. I bet Ive played more mp games of MTW/VI than anyone in the world. So I guess its me that clueless as you havent even been online yet.

I just rechecked the UNIT_PRODS for VI:-


Saharan Cavalry
March 9, Run 24, Charge 26

Alan Mercenary Cavalry
March 9, Run 24, Charge 26

Hobilars
March 9, Run 20, Charge 22

Mounted Sergeants
March 9, Run 20, Charge 22

Chivalric Knights
March 9, Run 20, Charge 22

Feudal Knights
March 9, Run 20, Charge 22

Bedouin Camel Warriors
March 9, Run 14, Charge 16

Berber Camels
March 9, Run 14, Charge 16

As you can see, Saharan's and Alans are "fast" Cavalry. The other English cavalry are "regular" speed cavalry, but in the desert the Knights will tire faster and won't be able to run or charge for long periods of time after the fatigue levels rise. And Camels are "slow" Cavalry, which however won't tire quickly at all and may well end up being quicker than the all the english cavalry types after a bit of fatigue. All depends on the fatigue and time issue of course. :dizzy2: Do your homework before saying what is fast and what isnt. ~:cheers:

PS - We want a replay. ~D

EDIT: A bit too slow, I see.

50,000 florins on Gawain

ichi :bow:

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Actually I have three options. I can shoot your archers and destroy them without you ever getting in range or I can move up 1 lb and start shooting your second line. Maybe you can get 1 or 2 archers on it but I will be killing much more expensive men. I then bring up another and then another. I can also use all 4 at once . Again florin wise which is really what counts in mp you will lose far more money. If you try to move your archers up my cav will kill them. saharans and alans are as fast as the english cav but no faster. Besides your going to take camels right. You only get 16 units.

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I surely love your deterministic approach. I used to talk like this in clan tactics threads with Sac, Ein and Marcus (ofcourse I did get my stats right and was expecting that each time an opponent may not play "nice" and comply to my wishes~;) ) ~:cheers:

And, since you say that you can take cav, which according to you

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is fast and 6 att and def

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then I think I'm entitled to take more than 16 units, ain't I ~D

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Again nothing stops them I dont care what you believe.

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Yep, that makes two of us. I don't care what I believe either but I do care about what the stats and reason believe.

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The facts are that camels are slow as hell. If you take say 4 their good only for defense. Any attempt to send them out will result in me doubling them. Also camels run from Clansmen like the plague.

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Hmm, it's all so calculated...if I don't move my mouse at all, will I rout or will I be spared?

This guy made a good proposal:

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Steppesinland03 high 10k rock desert summer, best out ot 10

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Tonight 21 GTM, dropped games after more than 1/4 of the units are engaged will be calculated with cwb rules or/and a referee if there's a disagreement. As I nearly know your army selection (although you purposefully misguide all heh) I'll be the attacker in all games and will play more than 3 factions, in order to challenge your claim of this army being undefeated (because If I won with a single setting and continued to do so then it wouldn't make any good points now, would it?).

Oh -must not forget-

*slaps ichi* ~;)

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Oh -must not forget-

*slaps ichi* ~;)

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Is this a challenge to another duel? ~:joker: ~:)

p.s.
Don't forget the replays. ~;)

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Originally Posted by ichi

BTW, EYG is a great online name, IMHO

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Thanks. It's great for forum postings but was intentionally frivolous. I thought something else might be appropriate for the actual arena. EatYerArrows, or some such. ~;)

The only way 'EYG' can be interpreted as in any way threatening is the implication that the opponent's men will end up, face down, chewing on the grass... :leer:

I wonder how well Gothic Knights do in the desert compared to other Knights.

They are transformed into FK in no time and then.... hmm obviously they'd not live that long heh

PS. I'm left wanting. Maybe tonight same time?

More specifically is fatigue just X rate of tiring or a YX rate of tiring with Y being a variable derived from armor and X as a constant. I can't find anything on it. And what are the penalties of exhausted?

If it is just an X rate, they would still be the dominant knight in the game, if its XY, then it would suck. So how is heat exhaustion counted?

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

More specifically is fatigue just X rate of tiring or a YX rate of tiring with Y being a variable derived from armor and X as a constant. I can't find anything on it. And what are the penalties of exhausted?

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It's YX with Y kicking in at armor = 4 and getting worse for values above that. Armor = 7 is is quite bad in the desert, and will eventually tire a unit to exhaustion even if it's just standing and never moves. The shield doesn't contribute to Y. Also, X isn't a constant. It has different values for standing, walking, running, charging, reloading and fighting.

There is a recovery rate which increases as a unit becomes more fatigued. This sets an equilibrium point which is highest for units that are standing because standing has the lowest fatigue rate. Units can recover fatigue up to a ceiling imposed by this equilibrium point. This ceiling in arid conditions, where armor has no effect, is 3 bars at 20 min and two bars at 40 min.

Fatigue combat modifiers:

4 bars (fresh) no penalties
3 bars (quite fresh) no penalties
2 bars (quite tired) -2 atk
1 bars (very tired) -3 atk, -1 def, -3 morale
0 bars (exhausted) -4 atk, -2 def, -6 morale
0 bars (totally exhausted) -6 atk, -3 def, -8 morale

Each combat point lost reduces a man's change to kill by 20%.

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Originally Posted by MizuYuuki

Fatigue combat modifiers:

4 bars (fresh) no penalties
3 bars (quite fresh) no penalties
2 bars (quite tired) -2 atk
1 bars (very tired) -3 atk, -1 def, -3 morale
0 bars (exhausted) -4 atk, -2 def, -6 morale
0 bars (totally exhausted) -6 atk, -3 def, -8 morale

Map sizes are:

Large map = 31 x 31 tiles (25 x 25 minus red zone)
Medium map = 26 x 26 tiles (20 x 20 minus red zone)
Small map = 20 x 20 tiles (14 x 14 minus red zone)

Fatigue rate due to walking tested on large, flat, arid map:

1st bar is lost at about 4:40 min
2nd bar is lost at about 11:15 min
3rd bar is lost at about 30:45 min

Fatigue rate due to standing:

1st bar is lost at 20 min
2nd bar is lost at 40 min

Time required to walk edge to edge on a large map:

Speed 4 unit takes 14:30 min
Speed 6 unit takes 9:40 min
Speed 9 unit takes 6:30 min

Time required to walk edge to edge on a small map (56% of large map):

Speed 4 unit takes 8:07 min
Speed 6 unit takes 5:25 min
Speed 9 unit takes 3:38 min

The walking fatigue is recoverable up to whatever ceiling the standing fatigue imposes. So, the player who has been moving his units can equalize fatigue with a player who has never moved, but it takes time

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That's from an old thread on 10k heh
There was also one on desert a long time ago but I don't think I can find it ~:handball:
Adding to the numerical wisdom above, I can only add that armour is indeed a factor that reduces the above times needed for the loss of bars, in a quite a geometrical rate, though I guess a unit with armour 10 won't tire visibly faster than one with 9, as certain armour level groups exist (hmm or is it just for AP calculation purposes :dizzy2: ).

EDIT: Argh Yuuki, now you have posted twice heh