hey Gawain , can you edit your post and make the word "IF" stand out in really big bright letters , because that is a bloody big if . ~;)
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hey Gawain , can you edit your post and make the word "IF" stand out in really big bright letters , because that is a bloody big if . ~;)
OK ill bite. Whats ORC?Quote:
So Gawain you subscribe to ORC?
No more so than your onesided view of things. You just have a different IF. If things go as bad as you say yadda yadda yadda.Quote:
hey Gawain , can you edit your post and make the word "IF" stand out in really big bright letters , because that is a bloody big if .
IF it does work out then what will you have to say?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
surly the allies fighting back nazi germanies attempts to rule the world could be considered "right". War is never good, but it can be neccesary. The war in Iraq is not neccesary.
Its one of the acronyms that I use regarding self improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
ORC = Only Results Count.
FAB = Focus Achieve Become.
GIT = Guru In Training ~D
Niether was US involvment in Europe during WW2. No war is neccesary.Quote:
surly the allies fighting back nazi germanies attempts to rule the world could be considered "right". War is never good, but it can be neccesary. The war in Iraq is not neccesary.
Yeah I figured that it was something like the end justifies the means. No I dont subscribe to that theory. Again I was opposed to invading Iraq for the very problems we face today. However as has been said its too late now. Im just saying dont count your chickens until they hatch. No one knows where this will lead in the end. All this doom and gloom from the left only helps prop up the enemy.Quote:
Its one of the acronyms that I use regarding self improvement.
ORC = Only Results Count.
FAB = Focus Achieve Become.
GIT = Guru In Training
English/russian/etc... inlovment in ww2 was neccesary, unless of course you mena they should have let the nazis conquer them and purge their populations. U.S involment was good though as leaders the Axis of Evil really were evil.Quote:
Niether was US involvment in Europe during WW2. No war is neccesary.
Im beginning to think that the moral we're being taught here is that the only wars worth fighting are the easy ones... 'What? You mean this war isnt a sure thing? Well, why even bother then- lets all just go home.' With today's attitudes, we may as well sat out WW2 as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Im beginning to think that the moral we're being taught here is that the only wars worth fighting are the easy ones...
Correct , lets attack a country with no allies , a demoralised mainly conscript army , no effective air force or navy , anti government terrorists already in place armed and ready , a population that is mainly hostile to its own government and it will be defeated very quickly and easily .
You hit the nail on the head there Xiahou ~:cheers:
Its a pity that the easy war didn't result in an easy post war .
You see he cant or wont answer your questions but just keeps up his nonsensical wise ass remarks all the time. Maybe he thinks hes a funny man. He really has developed this into an art form ~D
Poor France... :drummer:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
~:joker:
Thank you. :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Indeed, many supported the war when it was just as you outlined. The fact that so many shift their views to "it wasn't worth it" once it gets more difficult is disheartening to me and speaks to my previous point.
Hey not only France but most of the world. Africa night be a good place to start or South America as the logistics are much easier.Quote:
Poor France.
I just saw this which is at least somewhat reassuring.
I think statements like these are important- particularly to the morale of our troops. Also, even though both votes were largely along party lines, a sizeable number of Democrats did cross over.Quote:
The measure, approved 291-137, says the United States should leave Iraq only when national security and foreign policy goals related to a free and stable Iraq have been achieved.
"Calls for an early withdrawal embolden the terrorists and undermine the morale" of U.S. and allied forces and put their security at risk, the amendment to a State Department bill reads.
-snip-
Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (news, bio, voting record), R-Fla., author of the Iraq provision, stressed that calls for an early withdrawal were counterproductive to security aims in Iraq.
"Words matter," she said. "Incessant calls for an established date for withdrawal from Iraq have a negative effect. ... Do we want to send a message to the terrorists that their war of attrition is succeeding?"
"To establish such a deadline," added House Majority Leader
Tom DeLay, R-Texas, "all but ensuring disaster, would be morally and strategically indefensible."
500 London Bombings.
Over 8, 9/11's.
Yet it is interesting to see the responses of those who are the most vocal about these attorocities, laugh, joke, poo poo and support this slaughter. It is no wonder we get bloody bombed, you people sometimes make me feel like we ask for it and we probably do.
Do we ask for it? Is there any real dialogue or is it my way or the highway kind of attitude.
Either belong to a fundamentalist religion or die. Die anyway if you do and become a martyr.
If you bother to look at the stats two very interesting things occur:
A third are dead from criminal activity.
10% are dead from suicide bombers.
Cross reference that with 90% of the dead are adult males.
If it was purely civilian deaths of adults then the ratio of the males to females would be higher and closer to 1:1. Also the ratio of adults to children would be higher.
This points to a significant part of the dead being purposely in the wrong place at the wrong time.
[Edited by Ser Clegane]
The sanctions on Iraq, WORKED.
Your own bloody reports, and my own governments stated how the sanctions meant Saddam was UNABLE, to get his hands on any parts needed for WDM, they SUCCESSFULLY, restrained him from being able to get close.
Since when was the pretending to have WDM a reason for invasion a country? We knew they had no WDM, a year before the invasion your own government was declaring they had no WDM! Our intelligence services, it has now come to light, never stated to our heads of state that they thought Saddam had WDM, they merely were unsure. That is why we sent in the INSPECTORS. Do you forget that?! We sent in Hans Blix and he told us before the invasion Saddam had NO WDM. He stated he needed more time to search everywhere, but he stated Saddam's regime was increasingly more co operative, yet we invaded anyway.
There are a billion reports, including more government reports from my govt and yours which states that there was NO link between Saddam and AQ and other terrorism. We also know that Saddam disliked them and did not allow them in his country. LOOK at the situation NOW.
You state the same old tripe, peddled out like an old woman PJ, that is why people do not respond and ignore you, it is all bollocks, and it is only the die hard pro war people who actually still believe it. The rest of us, including a growing and majority of people in your country - find the present situation abominable and can see the reality, that this has been a huge mistake.
Now, need I remind you of my links and not of my parting comment in the threads starting post?
No one has addressed them, simply because you cannot handle the reality of the situation over there. Go on, tell me how all the links are crap and how the UK government is so bias against the war!!!!
You are kidding right? A majority are men because they specifically target police officers, politicians and their aides / other government officials and most importantly they target the mass lines and queuing areas for the Iraqi army, police force and other government areas. Men are the only ones found in all these places.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
We created all this, a hotbed of terrorism, a training and recruiting sargent for the terrorist organisations... it goes on and on. We created it all. We also act no better than terrorists by our actions either by our politicians or soldiers... We do paint a target on our backs.
Oh boy - and should someone say the same about you. ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by JAG
Now that is not the complete truth and we all know it. Care to explain the missiles that exceed the cease fire range?Quote:
The sanctions on Iraq, WORKED.
Care to explain the precuser found in the desert. Care to explain the inconsistency in the records as mentioned by the Duelfer Report, care to explain the actions of Iraq in their intelligence operation, also confirmed in that report, to lead the world to believe they were pursueing WMD.Quote:
Your own bloody reports, and my own governments stated how the sanctions meant Saddam was UNABLE, to get his hands on any parts needed for WDM, they SUCCESSFULLY, restrained him from being able to get close.
When you focus on only one thing - you get burned every time.Quote:
Since when was the pretending to have WDM a reason for invasion a country? We knew they had no WDM, a year before the invasion your own government was declaring they had no WDM! Our intelligence services, it has now come to light, never stated to our heads of state that they thought Saddam had WDM, they merely were unsure. That is why we sent in the INSPECTORS. Do you forget that?! We sent in Hans Blix and he told us before the invasion Saddam had NO WDM. He stated he needed more time to search everywhere, but he stated Saddam's regime was increasingly more co operative, yet we invaded anyway.
Care to explain the bounty paid by Saddam to palenstine terrorists who blow themselves up in Israel?Quote:
There are a billion reports, including more government reports from my govt and yours which states that there was NO link between Saddam and AQ and other terrorism. We also know that Saddam disliked them and did not allow them in his country. LOOK at the situation NOW.
And the polls show what - a population who is discouraged with the current circumstances - that is really all it truely shows.Quote:
You state the same old tripe, peddled out like an old woman PJ, that is why people do not respond and ignore you, it is all bollocks, and it is only the die hard pro war people who actually still believe it. The rest of us, including a growing and majority of people in your country - find the present situation abominable and can see the reality, that this has been a huge mistake.
Not me - I been rather enjoying the snide comments being passed along by many,Quote:
Now, need I remind you of my links and not of my parting comment in the threads starting post?
I haven't address them because I recoginze the reports for what they are - reports. I can draw my own conclusions from them.Quote:
No one has addressed them, simply because you cannot handle the reality of the situation over there. Go on, tell me how all the links are crap and how the UK government is so bias against the war!!!!
Or the billions of dollars in kickbacks and corruption- unless he considers that "working". Also, lets not overlook the fact that many wanted to end the sanctions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Or the 500 tons of uranium that has been found in Iraq...Quote:
Care to explain the precuser found in the desert. Care to explain the inconsistency in the records as mentioned by the Duelfer Report, care to explain the actions of Iraq in their intelligence operation, also confirmed in that report, to lead the world to believe they were pursueing WMD.
Or why the 9/11 commission said "there was no question in our minds that there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda." :bow:Quote:
Care to explain the bounty paid by Saddam to palenstine terrorists who blow themselves up in Israel?
Jag didn't the oil for food program cost about 60,000 childrens lives per annum while Saddam syphoned off the money and so did people in the UN.
So 25k mainly adult males vs 120,000 children over a two year period.
I think the invasion wins hands down.
Care to explain the missiles that exceed the cease fire range?
Would those be the missiles that could exceed the range by a tiny amount , only if they are launched without a warhead and guidance system ?
Now , as an artillery man Redleg could you tell me , is that a threatening missile or an expensive useless firework ?
Well no you don't have enough information to draw that conclution, as the 25k was for violent deaths, and not for other reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
I do think that more people would have died without the invasion though.
Personally on the Iraq issue, I didn't support the war and thinks that best situation now is a slow success to a stable Iraq. An unstable Iraq equals a serious risk for big problems and isn't something to strive for. On the other hand a quick success can make US quite aggressive on invasion plans for other nations and that I find very problematic.
On the media issue, we have the big system of "bad news is good news and good news is bad news" and that sudden news (10 killed by car bomb) is better than slow news (new hospital built), so it's very natural (with the current media structure) that almost only bad news comes from Iraq. Although if only bad news comes from Iraq, then you have a bias.
Finally, when did you hear good (on the ground, not big political) news from:
Irael- Palestina
Sudan
Afghanistan
Bosnia
Kosovo
LOL it exceed the range imposed by the cease fire agreements by more then a tiny amount. And if you really go back and look at the data - here is some for your ease of readingQuote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/samoud.htm
Quote:
According to the British dossier Iraq’s Weapons of Mass Destruction released in September 2002, it was unclear whether chemical and biological warheads had been developed for the al-Samoud/Ababil-100 ballistic missiles but given the Iraqi experience on other missile systems, the British government was judging that Iraq had the technical expertise for doing so. According to that same dossier, the al-Samoud liquid propellant missile has been extensively tested and had been deployed to military units. Intelligence indicated that at least 50 had been produced. Intelligence also indicated that Iraq had worked on extending its range to at least 200km in breach of UN Security Resolution 687.
In February 2003, U.N. inspectors evaluated two versions of the Al Samoud 2 missile using four separate computer models. Both versions were found to exceed the range limit of 150 kilometers set by the U.N. Security Council. The lighter version of the Al Samoud 2 was estimated to have a range of 193 kilometers, while the heavier version would be capable of a 162 km range. Accordingly, it was requested that all Al Samoud 2 missiles and warheads be delivered to the inspectors for destruction.
And again the arguement is not about what effect the missile would have if launched - it again was Jag's assertion of The sanctions on Iraq, WORKED. That missile was built in direct violation of the cease fire agreements and in spite of the Sanctions that were suppose to prevent the material from being sent to Iraq to develope said missile.
Now if you want to get into warheads and effects - you would most likely be surprised. The weapon was still under development - again in violation of the UN resolutions, the ceasefire, and in spite of the sanctions imposed. - so the potential of the warheads planned and effects were still being developed by Iraq.
Thanks Papewaio I've been wondering about that...Tell me again why Annan is still at the UN?
Azi
You didnt address 90% of my post, and your claims that sanctions worked and that it was perfectly fine for Saddam to pretend he had WMDs and play games with the inspectors are laughable.Quote:
You state the same old tripe, peddled out like an old woman PJ, that is why people do not respond and ignore you, it is all bollocks, and it is only the die hard pro war people who actually still believe it. The rest of us, including a growing and majority of people in your country - find the present situation abominable and can see the reality, that this has been a huge mistake.
I can only assume that you are forced to agree with all those points you ignored?
Hell, at least someone read it.. longest post ive done in a while. :embarassed:
According to the British dossier Iraq’s Weapons of Mass Destruction released in September 2002, ~D ~D ~D ~D ~D ~D ~D
Thanks Redleg , thats a classic ~:cheers:
Oh and a computer simulation , how wonderful .
Jag didn't the oil for food program cost about 60,000 childrens lives per annum while Saddam syphoned off the money and so did people in the UN.
Yes and the country whose businessmen took the biggest slice of the pie was ....errr. ...oh yes the same country that helped its "allies" break sanctions and circumvent the oil for food program . Cheers for bringing that up Pape ~;)