BI Demo Comments

The infantry marching speed for MTW and RTW is the same: around 6 km/h. Yes it is actually too much for a line trying to keep its formation but it works fine for a game. For that matter running/jogging/trotting, or whatever we are gonna call it, doesn't have to be realistic either but its more a question of control.

For standard infantry in MTW "running" speed is 66% faster than marching speed while in RTW its nearly 3 times as fast as marching speed. Overall units in RTW run about 50-60% faster than MTW. Sometimes MTW battles could be a fast clickfest but in RTW its guaranteed.

It is certainly not realistic nor fun for me with so much chaos and clicking.

Funny thing is, at least from the numbers I have, is that in RTW infantry running speeds was increased more than cavalry run speed (60% increase for infantry and only 50% for cavalry)


CBR

well infantry can run mighty fast in RTW, making battles not very long.

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Originally Posted by Intrepid Sidekick

The game unit movements and kill rates haven't sped up, at all, in any area of the game. :dizzy2:

Perhaps this perception to the contrary is either as a result of playing modded versions of the RTW game? i.e. where speeds and kill rates have been significantly reduced or a mistaken recollection of the original game speeds?

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I play an RTW mod where the movement speed is slowed by 10%. My impression of the BI demo was that at least heavy cavalry was moving about the same speed as in the mod which would be slightly slower than vanilla RTW.

Remember, LongJohn made the argument in MTW that movement speed determines the effective size of the battlefield. Slower movement making the battlefield effectively larger. He refused a request to increase the running speed of cavalry in MTW, which was set at about 15 mph, by even 10%, and he even argued that 15 mph was historically accurate. I can dig out the post if you want it.

Relatively fast movement means you have to separate units by a greater distances, and it therefore takes more time to scroll the camera which makes it more difficult to control all of your units. The Battle of Chalons devolves into total chaos very quickly if you try to make individual unit matchups as the AI is doing. You were able to play by making individual matchups in the Total War games prior to RTW.

The way I got around this fast pace, and the way virtually everyone in multiplayer is coping with this is to use what CeltiMordred calls "snowball" tactics. For instance, as the Huns in the Chalons battle, I put my infantry line in guard mode and put my cavalry into two groups way out on the flanks. Once the Romans charged my line, I swept in with the two groups of cav on each flank. I didn't target any specific enemy units or give any unit specific commands. The battle is effectively reduced to 3 things to control, and that's how you keep up with the speed at which things are happening. In multiplayer, it's even more simplified as players are mostly using only two "snowballs"; one to engage frontally and the other to flank. In singleplayer, you have an AI that's trying to make individual matchups, and doesn't recognize the threat from massed groups sweeping in from the flanks.

At least with mods which slow fighting and movement, you can get back to a gameplay that allows giving orders to the individual units at the height of the battle. The mod I use only slows movement by 10%, but when coupled with a slowdown in fighting speed it allows a player to issue more movement orders to individual units which makes maneuver of individual units more important and increases the tactical complexity of the game. The AI copes well with this because it's trying to do the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

Remember, LongJohn made the argument in MTW that movement speed determines the effective size of the battlefield. Slower movement making the battlefield effectively larger. He refused a request to increase the running speed of cavalry in MTW, which was set at about 15 mph, by even 10%, and he even argued that 15 mph was historically accurate. I can dig out the post if you want it.

Relatively fast movement means you have to separate units by a greater distances, and it therefore takes more time to scroll the camera which makes it more difficult to control all of your units. The Battle of Chalons devolves into total chaos very quickly if you try to make individual unit matchups as the AI is doing. You were able to play by making individual matchups in the Total War games prior to RTW.

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That's the point! Balancing the speeds crucially bound with battlemaps effectiveness. Ta da! :duel: Thank you PUZZ 3D! You expanded the critical subject.

An please mate dig it and post it the message. I guess we need some a succeed reference to get a clear stance. :book:

Ive unzipped the files/folders now they are sitting on my desktop where must they go or was it automated for you lads???

Just open the folder and launch the bi_demo.exe. Doesnt need to be installed.


CBR

With the Demo disc the instal created its own folder in
Program Files/Rome-Total war/Barbarian Invasion and also put a shortcut on my desktop.

You could create a folder in Program Files called Rome-Total War/Barbarian Invasion and put all the files in there. Then create a shortcut to your desktop.

Jochi

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Originally Posted by King Ragnar

Blackhawk i find it a very immpossible that a battle only lasted 1 minute. It would take one minute to get your army engaged with the other nevermind the fightinh taking place.

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im talking about the actuall fighting, where my units engaged there units

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Originally Posted by CBR

The infantry marching speed for MTW and RTW is the same: around 6 km/h. Yes it is actually too much for a line trying to keep its formation but it works fine for a game. For that matter running/jogging/trotting, or whatever we are gonna call it, doesn't have to be realistic either but its more a question of control.

For standard infantry in MTW "running" speed is 66% faster than marching speed while in RTW its nearly 3 times as fast as marching speed. Overall units in RTW run about 50-60% faster than MTW. Sometimes MTW battles could be a fast clickfest but in RTW its guaranteed.

It is certainly not realistic nor fun for me with so much chaos and clicking.

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I agree. It doesn't have to be 100% realistic, as long as it's controlable. One of the things I enjoyed about M:TW and S:TW was the slow pace of the battles, whereas in R:TW once combat is engaged it's over so fast that there is little you can do to influence it.

Melee killing rates may be the same as in M:TW, but that does not explain why I always manage to annihilate the enemy army. Once the battle lines are joined it is too easy to roll up the enemy line with cavalry charges from the flanks. And routing units, especially infantry, lose men very quickly.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

I play an RTW mod where the movement speed is slowed by 10%. My impression of the BI demo was that at least heavy cavalry was moving about the same speed as in the mod which would be slightly slower than vanilla RTW.

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You have mentioned this mod before. Where can it be found?

Most mods lower the movement speed by 10%. It's not done by actually lowering the unit's movement, but by editing the terrain modifiers so that units move more slowly over different types of terrain. Somewhere in the data folder there should be a file for terrain modifiersm all you have to do is decrease the number for each terrain type. (for example, it will say grass- 1.0. Change that to .9 to make units move 10% slower over it) The animations will remain the same, so it will look a little funny.

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Originally Posted by BobTheTerrible

Most mods lower the movement speed by 10%.

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But simply lowering the movement speeds is not enough. This mod raises morale and defense slightly so that units fight longer, it reduces lethality of all non-spear units to 0.75, and increases the anti-cav bonus of spears. There are a few other minor changes like better javelins and longer range slingers. The result is better RPS gameplay, and the time to make use of it during the fighting. It typically takes 2 to 4 minutes for the fighting on the battleline to be resolved depending on the units involved. The AI benfits from the improved RPS as well. I've seen the AI counterflank my flanking units, it's flanking units now have time to seriously threaten your general, archers have more time to inflict damage and the AI is very smart about choosing good matchups. The suicide general is still a problem, as is the AI's tendency to use one unit at a time in certain situations.

I'll post the link to Mordred's mod here when I get home. He has a new version v0.11 which reduces the anti-cav bonus slightly because online experience with the mod was showing that infantry was beginning to dominate the battles.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

Remember, LongJohn made the argument in MTW that movement speed determines the effective size of the battlefield. Slower movement making the battlefield effectively larger.

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Yes, and there is always going to be a scaling problem until the game can support tens of thousands of men on each side at a time. The scaling problem is "aspect ratio" and the difficulty of turning large formations. The typical RTW formation is about 1/5th to 1/10th as wide as it would need to be. Running laterally accross the field should be incredibly difficult to do mid battle. Rotating would have similar limitations, since the folks on the outside of the formation must walk much further, thereby limiting formation turning speed.

The scaling aspects present trouble for using a full motion video capture approach to the game.

Played a few battles choosing sides depending on wether there were interesting units. I played casually and did use the pause button. I did not not use overly clever tactics and was able to win the battles. Perhaps I didn't pick the hardest sides, but as I got 2 CTDs already (never happened in normal R:TW) I got fed up with it already. Not impressed by it.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

Melee killing rates may be the same as in M:TW, but that does not explain why I always manage to annihilate the enemy army. Once the battle lines are joined it is too easy to roll up the enemy line with cavalry charges from the flanks. And routing units, especially infantry, lose men very quickly.

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Well the formula used for RTW combat has indeed increased killing speed but that is compensated by increased defense stat. Of course when using barbarian units that doesnt have enough defense the killing rate is higher.

I cant remember if a general's command rating increases both defense and attack stats or just attack stat...

But one thing for sure is that killing routers is now done a lot faster than STW/MTW and cavalry can get huge amounts of kills and IMO its too much.


CBR

Frankly, the units move far too slowly to suit me. It's duller than dishwater to wait for units to creep slooooooooowly across the battle field to engage. I always end up running things on triple game speed because otherwise I'm bored to tears during the movement phase.

It's a good thing that cavalry can get kills on routing units, because units on foot can never catch up with routing infantry units, which seems absurd.


And on another kind of movement, why does it take 4-5 years to sail from Spain to Egypt? It certainly seems like sailing ships should move at least as quickly as men can walk in formation, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

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Originally Posted by gardibolt

Frankly, the units move far too slowly to suit me. It's duller than dishwater to wait for units to creep slooooooooowly across the battle field to engage. I always end up running things on triple game speed because otherwise I'm bored to tears during the movement phase.

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This isn't a game where you are supposed to have constant non-stop action. The speed control is there so you can speed up the initial movement of the armies and the final stage of chasing routers.

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Originally Posted by gardibolt

It's a good thing that cavalry can get kills on routing units, because units on foot can never catch up with routing infantry units, which seems absurd.

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I wouldn't expect infantry to catch infantry since they both run at the same speed. Routers do slow down once they tire, but the chasers are going to get tired as well.

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Originally Posted by gardibolt

And on another kind of movement, why does it take 4-5 years to sail from Spain to Egypt? It certainly seems like sailing ships should move at least as quickly as men can walk in formation, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

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I think it's a game balancing thing because of the turn based nature of the strategic campaign. Even the land movement takes longer than it would have in real life. This gives the enemy a chance to interdict your movements since the game doesn't allow that in mid-turn. MikeB said they experimented with longer movement distances, but the gameplay became a blitzkrieg. There are traits which increase the distance a fleet moves per turn.

in the Demo i am finding things happen slower

if you give the guys an experience point or two and it makes them stand that little bit longer

movement speed seems to have been reduced for units,
get close to a routing infantry, it is moving across the ground slower than it's animation,
which, unless you get in real close, matters not one little bit because you cannot see it from a distance.

it still seems that all cav travel at same speed,??

i am seeing Heavy cav stay ahead of HA's.
and HA's getting caught by Heavy Cav

can anyone confirm? perhaps it was the unit matchups, or just me.

B.

well i havent noticed much cav speeds, but inf seem to run alot faster!
and cav are more powerful now, so they can actualyy breal formations!

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Originally Posted by Ludens

You have mentioned this mod before. Where can it be found?

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You can download it from here:

MCM-v0.11 English

Enjoy

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Originally Posted by barocca

it still seems that all cav travel at same speed,??

i am seeing Heavy cav stay ahead of HA's.
and HA's getting caught by Heavy Cav

can anyone confirm? perhaps it was the unit matchups, or just me.

B.

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I did a quick and dirty test in Chalons. I simply lined up three units in extended lines then I double clicked an equidistant point for each unit to race to. Fresh Hunnic archers were definitely faster than Hunnic Heavy cav and Hunnic elite cav (the last two were the same speed)

More to that.

I'd estimate the distance raced to be about 1/3 the distance of the total battlefield length (assuming that the Hun line is set up at approx the centerpoint). What was noticable was that the difference in speed between the cav units was not visably noticable until about half the raced distance had passed. Therefore, over short distances (1/6 total battlefield) the differences in speed will be negligible and I would suggest that the speed differences at combat distances are moot (which agrees with your observation). If CA wants to have speed differences between cav types (and they should) the speed differences need to be more exaggerated (unless there is also a 'time to react' factor which could also be used to give light cav a speed advantage).

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Originally Posted by SpencerH

I did a quick and dirty test in Chalons. I simply lined up three units in extended lines then I double clicked an equidistant point for each unit to race to. Fresh Hunnic archers were definitely faster than Hunnic Heavy cav and Hunnic elite cav (the last two were the same speed)

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TRUE,
but,
saxon heavy cav can catch goth horse archers, even if the HA's are on skirmish mode

goth HA's cannot catch saxon heavies

the hunnic cav are the fastest of the lot


put any HA on cantabrian circle and they are dog food if you dont watch em,
they seem to forget to skirmish in time to avoid charging cav, especially if you charge the cav past them.


it is currently impossible to put Goth HA's and Saxon heavies in the same army for a proper test
:(

B.

One thing I noticed is that unit coherence seems more flexible. I´ve seen a unit of Frankish spearmen spread out and building two bulks. In RTW 1.2 it could happen that a unit got "pulled back" because one or two men were engaged with an enemy unit. That seems to be less now.
Also, some unit animations seem more detailed now.

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Originally Posted by barocca

TRUE,
but,
saxon heavy cav can catch goth horse archers, even if the HA's are on skirmish mode

goth HA's cannot catch saxon heavies

the hunnic cav are the fastest of the lotB.

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Perhaps Goth HA are considered heavy (as are the Hunnic elite despite being HA) and saxon 'heavy' is calc'd as medium speed.

From a realistic perspective one would expect that a charging heavy cav unit might occasionally catch HA that didnt react quickly enough. After all it takes a fair bit of time to turn a horse 180 degrees and ride away. OTOH, from a historical perspective, it should be a rare event.

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Originally Posted by barocca

put any HA on cantabrian circle and they are dog food if you dont watch em,
they seem to forget to skirmish in time to avoid charging cav, especially if you charge the cav past them.

B.

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Why would anyone use cantabrian circle? IIRC it never worked correctly and any units using it were always 'easy pickings'.

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Originally Posted by Celtibero Mordred

You can download it from here:

MCM-v0.11 English

Enjoy

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Thanks for the link.

I have installed it just now, but I couldn't get it to work. The game said there was an error loading the mount database. I did install it twice in different folders (I wanted to see which files where affected) but the problem remained after I uninstalled both, did a registry clean up and reinstalled the mod. Normal R:TW still works.

Do you know someone who can help me with this?

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Originally Posted by Ludens

I did install it twice in different folders (I wanted to see which files where affected) but the problem remained after I uninstalled both, did a registry clean up and reinstalled the mod. Normal R:TW still works.

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All the files go into a MPComMod folder under the main game folder, and the new shortcut points to that folder. I installed v0.11 andit works for me. Make sure you aren't installing it into a modded version of RTW.

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Originally Posted by SpencerH

Why would anyone use cantabrian circle? IIRC it never worked correctly and any units using it were always 'easy pickings'.

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It was very useful for dealing with the elite missile units. You could slowly attrit them while keeping them engaged without them cutting you to pieces in the process. They had to send another unit or two out to deal with the threat. Where it didn't work was versus fast charging units that could melee.

well the cantabrian circle was pretty usefull in RTW for Hores archer v other archers!

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Originally Posted by SpencerH

Why would anyone use cantabrian circle? IIRC it never worked correctly and any units using it were always 'easy pickings'.

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eh?, because this is BI not Rome
bugs are supposed to have been fixed

we are doing what testing we can on the demo while the devs still have time to tweak the code

testing means trying to find the limits and testing as many features as you can,

BI Demo Bug Thread

BKB and Myself are making new battles for just that purpose,
well, that And to have a bit of fun too.
B.

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

It was very useful for dealing with the elite missile units. You could slowly attrit them while keeping them engaged without them cutting you to pieces in the process. They had to send another unit or two out to deal with the threat. Where it didn't work was versus fast charging units that could melee.

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Hmmm? Perhaps I never tried that since I dont think I actually play a campaign where I had that many HA. I just recall the mounted javelin-based cantabrian circle as being a bit of a jerk (so to speak).