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Well, I don't post in here as much as I do the frontroom so I don't generall know GC's usual posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Well thats good to know, we have (usually) have a strong opinion against those of the continent :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
And yes it's calmed me down, coupled with the fact that you weren't specifically talking about me :2thumbsup: You've reasserted my faith in the backroom as a civilised place :laugh4:
When I began at this forum many decades ago, I kept a low profile until people started writing things like: "people criticize America because they're jealous" (they meant envious) or they are ignorant of the "real" US (like post #27 here). I decided to chime in because I am a US citizen, born and raised on US pop culture in the heart of US suburbia. I have been to the four corners (except Florida) of the country and seen a lot in my 44 years.
My "anti-Americanism" has been well-known at The Org for a long time. I wonder if the forumers who label me that way ever consider why I criticize the US so much.
No one wants to hate their country. I received the same pro-US propanganda as anyone else. I wore a sun visor in red, white, and blue patriotic colors when I was ten. I wanted to paint the fire hydrant in front of our house red, white, and blue during the nation's bicentennial in 1976.
But, slowly, over the years, I learned to see the country objectively. It really helped when I spent time in Europe, Asia, and South America and saw the people and societies there*. I also teach ESL in San Diego and work closely with hundreds of foreign students every year. I married a Japanese.
Once I looked at the US more objectively, not as an American, but as a human, I became increasingly critical of it. The actions of the government; the people I see every day who indulge in food, conveniences, and entertainment like children out of control, and who prefer to live in illusions; the lack of moderation--everything done to extremes, against the very core of the lessons of wisdom of sages like Aristotle and Lao-Tse. I didn't decide to distance myself and become shameful of the US; the people and policies convinced me.
I like what Silver Knight said in his first post (#35). I think patriotic Americans are more ignorant of their own country than many outsiders. Just like the forest for the trees cliche. Posts #50, #20, and #51 are spot-on as well.
To be sure, the US has its strengths, mostly in the culture brought in by the underclasses and the progressive laws introduced by liberal politicians and popular movements (like consumer protection and civil rights). I love the US highway system, with its very informative signs and carefully tested, well-maintained roads. People here come up with great practical inventions, like T-shirts, sneakers, and White-Out.
But this society is seriously ill and paranoid. The ultra-nationalism and ultra-religious fervor (governments love a faith-based, rather than critically-thinking, populace) are symptoms of it. The bulk of the population is immature, gluttonous, and ignorant. They demand democracy as a vague ideal, but have no clue what is going on and can't be bothered to vote anyway. Meanwhile, the ones who did vote selected a man to be the national leader of the most powerful nation on earth because he's a "good Christian" and his "common man" image (however, he's a member of the priviledged elite--I told you Americans live in illusion).
It's hard to see that every day and be proud.
*In the US, generosity means providing a bed and food for a visitor. Fine. No complaints here. But, I have been to and heard about societies where generosity means giving up your own bed and meal for a visitor. That's generosity.
People, people...We all know why we hate america. It's because % 90 of americans are vampires the rest is trying to become one. Their leaders however are a mixture of reptil and bufalo with human brain. We all know that Vladimir Dracul took a trip to america 100 years ago and infected a lot of people there, it appears that Karl Robe is a descendant from one of those infected families or from Dracul himself. The war on Iraq wasn't either for oil, no it was for reasuring a constant supply of fresh blood.
This studies done on american people couldn't get the nature of Condoleeza Rice however, so we really don't know what she is yet.
Sorry to hijack, but travelocity has never pointed me towards anything like this, even when I sort lodging fares by price. Will you help me plan my next vacation? I wouldn't want to waste any alcohol/food/car rental money on unnecessary hotel fees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tachikaze
Try visiting people's homes, rather than hotels. Although, I recommend staying only if invited. Even then, I wouldn't put anyone out of their food and bed, so I personally haven't had to inconvenience anyone to that degree. However, I have friends who have been given such hospitality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
First of all, I'd like to say, I live in America and I love it here.
With that said though, I am a VERY strong liberal and I feel America has had many mistakes, but I think we've done right as well.
I look at it this way:
When a kid is really quiet no one hates the kid, but no one really loves him either. If a kid is really outgoing, people will love him, but also people will hate him. America is like the outgoing kid. We are absolutely hated by many, but there are those who love us.
My input anyway...
One of the reasons why some hate the US, is shown very well by a few US posters in this thread, including that of the first.Of course, that doesn't make hating the US any better.
But a single spoiled fish in a basket of hundreds can spoil all of them. A single fat, arrogant, loud, ignorant, white, protestant, Puritan, rich, corporate, capitalistic "Joe" is enough to confirm one's prejudices, ignoring a thousand of those who are not "Joe." The key, though, is prejudice, not Joe.
Soly, gimme a tissue paper.
I...truly doubt that is the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
You see, you are generalizing Europe--a diverse continent of many nations and many histories--the way some Europeans generalize the United States. And your attacks on it makes no sense whatsoever.
Generalizations are often not very nice. The mobs do that, not the mages and the scholars. The Ivory tower sees far.
And I have yet to see a satisfactory justification from you of America's need to be superior.
On a side point, I am not European; I am in the United States, immigrated two years ago, and before you ask, legally, of course.
Also, you missed my point that prejudice, not Joe the spoiled fish, is the key to the image. What forms that prejudice, though, is a larger subject, and I am a lazy ass not too bothered to analyze and define such subjects right now. :sweatdrop:
Erm...is that indirect ad hominem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Nevermind, see my post in the other thread for why it is irrational to claim as such, and let's get back onto the topic.
Sticking your nose into everything and invading countries to seize oil does help. And the things GC are saying in the Taiwan China thread also make others hate America, if that is what you think about other countries and your right to rule the world.
It is just fashionable to bash America. Makes you look smart.
Well, I don't like how US governments stick their nose into everything going on. They usually build up good deck of cards to keep other players arguing over and when it is their turn they bluff/threaten and/or satisfy whoever needs it to keep their game crashed and their own hand comfortable. For example, I simply don't want any Johnnies driving into Iran to bring peace that will grow severe consequences for my country.
Tachikaze may be making some points, experience always has something to say. But once again I came up with the question :
Assume that Turkey (substitue yours) and USA had exchanged their positions. How would my people start behaving, would my government stick their nose into everyone else's job like whom we are criticising ?
I don't have a clue. But it is still fashionable to criticise USA for even catching a flu. I wonder if Turkish movie industry will produce a sequel to the movie "The Valley of The Wolves" (my ***) :smoking:
Ok. so you helped us and now we are complaining everything you do? Lets get couple facts straight. First why do you generalize Europe like its a single country? Yes you have helped a lot of countries of Europe in past,but not all. I come from Finland and America has always been good trading partner to us,but we never received a penny of Marshall aid,or in matter of fact any other aid from US.While Finland were paying war compensations to Soviet Union after the third war against them in 20th century.
So you have not gave us freedom or money so do we owe you something?My answer is:No.
Personally i dont hate US.In my world its very hard to hate a state.I can hate a person but not a state.But what im sick and tired is hearing all the time how everybody owes you guys something when its not true.
Here we have a saying: Who´s food you are eating,his songs you are singing.
I or my country have not eaten your food,so we dont have to sing your songs also,right?:bow:
Ahh, well that's alright then. I was provoked by comments that European colonialism was to blame for all the ills in the world, and since you nice American folks consider Britain different from Europe that might perhaps mean continental colonialism is to blame, and since I have little knowledge of that I cannot argue against it, but we all know how bad the Belgian Congo was...Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
:laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by BHCWarman88
I admit I'm guilty of this selective perception myself. I see a car on a US highway with 20 US flags and jingoistic slogans or fundamentalist Christian tripe and forget that there are 50 cars around it without such symbols.Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
For all you European critics of the US, I just want to point out that there is a significant portion of the population here that resists the stupidity of the people I mentioned in Post #65 and policies of the Bush Regime. They are largely pooled in places like Boston, New York, Washington DC, Minnesota/Wisconsin, parts of the West Coast, and Hawaii.
For every ignorant, gluttonous American, there's a critically-thinking, compassionate, and well-educated one. Well, I don't know if the ratio os one-to-one, but there are many anyway.
I hope, someday, they will have greater effect on US policy.
In my experience as an Irish-European visiting and living in the States, the ratio is much, much higher in favour of the latter (compassionate etc). I would agree with your list (excepting DC, which like many capitals has some deeply unpleasant people in it) and add the mid-west, most southern states and of course, Texas. (Florida is a bit wierd).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tachikaze
Americans have many idiosyncracies, and in many ways reflect the very best and worst of the countries and races they came from. But I have found most to be unfailingly generous.
The American people are scared at the moment, as the world which they believed they were insulated from has shown itself to be nastier than they hoped. When a nation with the capabilities that the USA has gets scared, more than a few trees fall over in the storm. A great strength of the US is its idealism - and this is a weakness too, not least when one's ideals are punctured. The concern as to 'Why hate America' is part of this.
There's no need to be scared, because America has friends, dear friends in Europe and elsewhere. Sometimes friendship means having to say hard things, like 'you're wrong'. And sometimes it means standing together. To American ears, European criticism sometimes sounds harsh and cruel. That's our fault for not understanding our audience, because we are much nastier to our own politicians and peoples - European debates are very fierce, we're just used to being inflammatory to get our point across, since for most of history we just invaded each other, and we miss it. :charge:
Unfortunately, politicians of all flavours are using this sense of fear and confusion to their own ends. They are doing this in the UK and Europe, and throughout the world. Fundamental rights are being stripped away, while we're fibbed to about "threats".
As I look at it from across the pond, the US is having a big internal debate about what it stands for. Many American citizens are asking questions of the wider world - this thread is a good example, even if there is an injured tone. That strikes me as the sign of a strong and concerned democracy, and of a people who in the main, still believe in the ideals of their country. This debate won't be over in a month or even a couple of presidential terms. For a start, it needs a Democratic party to decide what it believes in, just as real debate in the UK needs a strong Conservative party to decide what it stands for.
Yes when refering to Europe I usually do not mean the UK. I consider it seperate from the continent, its it's own special continent Britian. Britian has done quite alot to help their previous colonies, look at india one of the worlds fastest growing economies. If you notice my comment about the human experimentation was refering to Danish colony. Sorry if I offended you too much DM, European hatred is just a raw nerve. I dislike them not taking their fair share of the blame.Quote:
Ahh, well that's alright then. I was provoked by comments that European colonialism was to blame for all the ills in the world, and since you nice American folks consider Britain different from Europe that might perhaps mean continental colonialism is to blame, and since I have little knowledge of that I cannot argue against it, but we all know how bad the Belgian Congo was...
Mr. Jello Cube we are a nation built by immigrants. And will be continued to be built by immigrants, we are the fastest growing 1st world country. Also Haruchai this debate has been going on (violently raging at some points) for well over a hundred and fifty years. Things don't get resolved very fast here, they get debated over again and again till the horse is all but rotted and turned to dust. A good example of the current debates is 3 people siting at a table, ones a 350+ lb women chowing down on a couple of whoppers. The others a smoker he's smoking right now. The third is giving the smoker a ration of s**t about how it can kill him, while carefully not mentioning to the obese women how the whopper is going to kill her, and faster I might add.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
See my posts in the other thread as to why Leftist americans, even Immigrant Americans who happen to be Leftist, are inherantly against America's freedoms. Such a motive cannot produce unbias arguments.
Also Mr. Tiberius there is far more oil in Alaska and the Gulf coast (possibly one of the worlds largest supplies of oil in the Gulf) oil wasnt even part of the debate for going to war with Iraq unless you happen to be french.
Depending on where you go, they are hated by the vast majority of the American Populous. Though south carolina might be different (think they forget what happened to the last states that wanted to sucede from the union.)Quote:
arrogant, loud, ignorant, white, protestant, Puritan, rich, corporate, capitalistic
Very very true Mr. LeftEyeNine, I'm still expecting to see the U.S.A. blamed for the bird flu. But maybe the conspiracy wacko's have already gone down that rabbit hole, bioengineered virus to destroy China before it becomes to powerful?:wall: :shame: :juggle2:Quote:
But it is still fashionable to criticise USA for even catching a flu.
Ok I see that my joke didn't helped to distract the heat here.
I don't really think that it's for their people that the rest of the world hates USA. All countries have that kind of people, if you ever visit Buenos Aires you'll notice how "proud" many are of decadence and how they treat extrangers (specially the traders in the centers). The problem with USA is that this kind of people receive much more notice and the government too, it's not wonder however because that's what gives money. Besides such a powerful contry has many interests around the world it's not that rare that they "stick their noses" into everything, and this helps a lot to bring up those hated faces and to increase the hatred directly. If you ask me I don't like that idea of "manifest desteny" but that's just me perhaps...:idea2: :juggle2:
I wanna be honest, when i joined the .org i was just as anti-american as your run of the mill middle eastern types who blame everything else on anyone.
When i see my old posts i feel embarrassed ~;p
But people grow to love the US over-time, appreciate them for what they are... and uh alot of other things. So here is to world peace and lets all smoke the peace pipe.
<3
P.S:i'm stoned on the bong, so don't mind me, just feeling like a hippy at the moment.
It`s a small chance that the US would`ve been safer if it hadn`t secured its security by wars all over the world. :book:
I find it interesting that Americans here are quick to point out the truth that most of their fellow citizens are in fact not *insert obscenely long list of bad things concering Amercans*.
On the other hand my fellow Europeans are trying to defend some of the less than brilliant aspects. I wonder why nobody has pointed out that Europeans in general don't mind Americans per se. In fact we hardly notice you.
But when Ameriancs trudge around looking like, well American tourists they do become easy targets.
Add to that that we have our equal proportion of idiots, just like you Americans do. And to be honest I get sick of them at times.
But even these idiots seem to understand one thing, the USA is not a bad place by itself. Most would not mind living there, and I have even heard one of our most US bashing politicans say that she would prefer to live in the US over a various collection of 'glory'-states (term for those that are always glorified).
So do not fear/expect that the 'hate' is very deep, it is not.
“unless you happen to be French” I am French, and if you really believe that oil wasn’t in the agenda, you should read about why wars happened. And the oil fields in Alaska are so easy to exploit, known fact.
No, the French government was against the war because it was no proof of WMD. It was no proof of link between Al Qaeda and Iraq. Iraq wasn’t a menace for the world. And all the US arguments to go to war were prove to be wrong…
So, if they were wrong, and I believe that the US Government knew they were wrong, why to go to war?
Now you have a choice to do: either the US Government lied to his allies, either the Us Government is incompetent… What happens in a company is you are one of these two hypotheses (and not both)?
Now, now, the US liberated Europe. Right they did, but it wasn’t really a choice. They were attacked by Japan. Because when the cowards French declared war to Germany to defend Poland, where was the USA? Sleeping…
Now, why do you hate Europe? Without Europe, no modern America. No USA. Point.
About the eternal debts, did the US reimburse Louis the XVI for the help he gave to the Rebels? Not only the newly US didn’t respect the words not to start separate negotiation with the English, but they even never paid the French for the troops, the navy and the heavy artillery which won their independence.
And you want to know why some people in the world hate the US: just read what you wrote. At least I had a good laugh…:dizzy2:
Some of yall are taking pretty far stances for a country of 300 million people. And yes my post was a J/K (I dont see how you dont see that but whateva) so stop being so damn petty. No should judge people on there leaders although it is clear here many people are. This thread is actually quite pointless and gets us nowhere it just brings up prejduces and stereotypes. So I say we burn it. http://humferier.free.fr/sav/flamethrower.gifhttp://humferier.free.fr/sav/flamethrower.gifhttp://humferier.free.fr/sav/flamethrower.gifhttp://humferier.free.fr/sav/flamethrower.gif
Is that legal in the UAE? I'm just curious, that's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by faisal
BigTex: it's obvious that Bush and his other Republican cronies want to get their hands on Iraqi oil. Keeps them rich and denies China Iraqi oil, all while getting more reserves in case Russia decides to bump up the price of oil with their huge reserves.
Duh!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberius
~:idea: :2cents:
Bring on the Axe this thread is going nowhere! We've argued to the point of exhaustion and there is no longer a (as SFTS put it) point to this thread, as i can see this spiralling downward into a "my country is better than yours" flame war. I say close it!
I'm sure you already know though, that it's getting harder to get oil now? Bush tried to help us and he just in fact hurt us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberius
I will however give Bush some credit, because as wrong as it is to invade countries and things of that sort, I think he really had some good intentions. The leader was horrible, but he mainly was unfortunetly thinking mainly of the American people in his "striking first" policy. It ended up with thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians.
Also, his father went in the first gulf war and was obviously unsuccesful, so maybe it is to protect his family honor?
Finally, one may wonder about the possibility of a religious motive for such actions as invading Iraq/Afghanistan. A modern Crusades perhaps?
Teh onleee ting si us Amrekanz cnanot splel four owr lifes. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by strike for the south