A Toe in the Water (Redux)

But I am positive about the prospects of the nation of Gah and its direction.

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

Unbelievable...

First, you accuse me of personal attacks...

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Charging someone repeatedly of arrogance is a personal attack. Noting a person's lack of resolve when that person sets his own standard is not.

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Also, what is "very telling" is the fact that you purposely edited a baiting attempt into your post, in order that I would reply, and when I didn't, you actually called me out on a grammar problem as a second baiting attempt...

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I know, and despite it being obvious you fell for it.

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Very deep plotting, don't you think?

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I have to entertain myself in the face of entrenched dogmatism: all the more given I suggested the actual topic be the focus but was ignored.

Now, if you would like to return to the actual topic I promise not to treat you like a cartoon.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Negative. In eight-year-old style: France drastically needs some reforms, especially in the economy, especially in labour laws. President is a lame duck. Prime minister tries to show off with a solution to the massive protests of last year: new labour law that would mean less youth unemployment to increase integration. It is the wrong law at the wrong time by the wrong person. Even more massive protests follow. PM is a lame duck now too. Reform from the right therefore unfeasable. After all of this the left will certainly not go into the elections next year with a program of economic reform. So nothing will change when change is what is needed most, country will fall behind even more, making people even more uncertain, which makes them cling on even more to current social rights. So:

Pwnd.

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Do most French want a more flexible economic model?

Oh man. This thread went off the deep end.

I like the topic. Let's focus on the topic.

I hereby declare the war of petty philosophers over. And the winner is...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

...all of us in the backroom, since the silly posturing and one-up-manship is over. :2thumbsup:

I know France is also suffering under immigration problems, especially middle eastern males. How does the economic situation relate for you in that respect? I know they aren't "doing the jobs the French won't do".

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Originally Posted by Pindar

Charging someone repeatedly of arrogance is a personal attack. Noting a person's lack of resolve when that person sets his own standard is not.

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If that is your logic, than noting one's arrogance falls under the same category. As does taking "points" off...

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Originally Posted by Pindar

I know, and despite it being obvious you fell for it.

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Nice turn around. I fell for nothing, rather, I pointed out the second instance of hypocrisy on your part.

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Originally Posted by Pindar

I have to entertain myself in the face of entrenched dogmatism: all the more given I suggested the actual topic be the focus but was ignored.

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As do I. Seeing how only a few responses of this topic, have actually been on topic, I applaud you efforts to continue and steer it back on topic.

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Originally Posted by Pindar

Now, if you would like to return to the actual topic I promise not to treat you like a cartoon.

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You may treat me how you like or say what you want. It is of no consequence to me. However, it surely does a good job of bringing out certain inherent qualities that you posses.

EDIT: Whoops Div, I missed your post... :tongue2:

Well edit it away man. You both win. Or lose. It's pointless. This is a good topic.

Know when to take it to the PM box. :bow:

edit: Thats not too bad Reenk. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Know when to take it to the PM box. :bow:

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I agree - if you would like to continue your personal discussion, please use other means that this thread.

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Originally Posted by Pindar

Do most French want a more flexible economic model?

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That question translates into French as: 'Should France succumb to a neo-liberal Anglosaxon model?'

Read her forehead for an answer:
https://img133.imageshack.us/img133/5484/non4kt.jpg
Or read their lips:
https://img56.imageshack.us/img56/2659/non5ah.png

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

I know France is also suffering under immigration problems, especially middle eastern males. How does the economic situation relate for you in that respect? I know they aren't "doing the jobs the French won't do".

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...tryin again...


Hey Louis!

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Originally Posted by Pindar

Oops! If you want to post an opinion just consider the top one positive and the bottom negative. It doesn't seem I can correct the poll choices. Of course! Given the wherewithal of the Dutch so that even the sea is forced to retreat before their resolve one option is probably all that is needed.

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It sure would be fun if you could change the poll options after a whole bunch of people have already voted :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

http://matousmileys.free.fr/megafon.gifHey Louis!

I know France is also suffering under immigration problems, especially middle eastern males. How does the economic situation relate for you in that respect? I know they aren't "doing the jobs the French won't do".

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The Poles are doing the jobs the French won't do. But I don't mind them, in fact I love any guest workers. If you've got a skill that is wanted, if you can do a proper job for a competitive price - by all means come over and earn yourself some decent money.

On a personal scale, either an immigrant is well-integrated, in which case he's not detrimental to my personal economic situation but a source of wealth, or he isn't, in which case he's not an economic competitor at all.
But on a larger scale, I'm not that thrilled to indefinitely carry the burden for an immigrant underclass that constitutes over 10% of the total population, and I don't care where they are from.

The problems with immigrants are a strain, but neither they themselves nor immigration itself are the cause of France's malaise. The immigration issues are only a part of a much greater general feeling of decline.


The Economist has a great article in line with this thread: 'France faces the future'.

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Originally Posted by Economist

The country's politicians need to level with the French people on the need to embrace change

“THE French constitute the most brilliant and the most dangerous nation in Europe and the best qualified in turn to become an object of admiration, hatred, pity or terror but never indifference.” Thus did a young Alexis de Tocqueville describe his motherland in the early 19th century. His words still carry a haunting truth. Over the past few years, as other western democracies have shuffled quietly along, France has by turns stunned, exasperated and bemused.

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Do give it a read if you are interested in this subject, it is excellent.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

https://img56.imageshack.us/img56/2659/non5ah.png

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Che Guevara as a symbol of protest in Europe???? WOW I didn't know he expanded so well. I wonder, and maybe you can tell me, just as an emotional figure, because El Che reprents other ideologies, but why not Rousseau, Proudhon, Voltaire, or the other thousand philosophers that made France so famous?

That was good. It provides an important window into European concepts of liberal and conservative, which, of course, are indeed very different from the U.S. definitions of those two phrases.

The Economist is a good mag.

Soulforged, Che has fans in Turkey no less than he does in Europe. He is the symbol of revolution globally indeed.

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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

Soulforged, Che has fans in Turkey no less than he does in Europe. He is the symbol of revolution globally indeed.

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Interesting LEN, it puts everything in perspective, a globalized perspective.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

Che Guevara as a symbol of protest in Europe???? WOW I didn't know he expanded so well. I wonder, and maybe you can tell me, just as an emotional figure, because El Che reprents other ideologies, but why not Rousseau, Proudhon, Voltaire, or the other thousand philosophers that made France so famous?

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Because El Che has the looks of a rockstar and Rousseau that of a creepy old man?

You didn't know that that Che Guevara picture is such an icon? It's as famous as Mickey Mouse's ears or a Coca-Cola bottle. Che Guevara must be one of the globalised world's most lucrative brands. I hope that by some delightful irony Guevara's relatives are secretly making a fortune out of selling all those 'El Che' t-shirts, flags and buttons to those no-logo anti-globalists. :balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

That question translates into French as: 'Should France succumb to a neo-liberal Anglosaxon model?'

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From the Economist:

"...the objective of the students and public-sector trade unions is to prevent change, and to keep France the way it is."


"In another startling poll, however, whereas 71% of Americans, 66% of the British and 65% of Germans agreed that the free market was the best system available, the number in France was just 36%. The French seem to be uniquely hostile to the capitalist system that has made them the world's fifth richest country and generated so many first-rate French companies."


"The choice belongs to France. A bold effort at renewal that could unleash the best in the French? Or a stubborn defence of the existing order that will keep France a middling world power in economic decline? "

Do you think France will opt for the "stubborn defence" noted above? Is there an alternative being discussed in French political circles that has any following?

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

It sure would be fun if you could change the poll options after a whole bunch of people have already voted :laugh4:

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That would make polls much more interesting. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If that is your logic, than noting one's arrogance falls under the same category. As does taking "points" off...



Nice turn around. I fell for nothing, rather, I pointed out the second instance of hypocrisy on your part.



As do I. Seeing how only a few responses of this topic, have actually been on topic, I applaud you efforts to continue and steer it back on topic.



You may treat me how you like or say what you want. It is of no consequence to me. However, it surely does a good job of bringing out certain inherent qualities that you posses.

EDIT.

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~:grouphug:

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Originally Posted by Pindar

Is there an alternative being discussed in French political circles that has any following?

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As usual, France has the alternative of putting her destiny in the hands of an agressive foreign midget with delusions of grandeur: Nicolas 'maybe France is wrong, and the rest of the world is right' Sarkozy.
Sarko.

He is one of the main contenders for the presidency next year. Highly controversial, he is loathed by the left. As he's a Gaullist, he's not my natural prefered candidate, but I can't help but enjoy his style.

And he did Chirac's daughter once. :laugh4:

And he did Chirac's daughter once.
And Chirac being Chirac will probably be wanting to do Sarkozys daughter , wife and mother .

Switzerland. We'll do fine, I think.

No time to write anything more comprehensible. My apologies.

Quid

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Because El Che has the looks of a rockstar and Rousseau that of a creepy old man?

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Oh but Rousseau was a young man once, with the spirit of a rockstar.~;)

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You didn't know that that Che Guevara picture is such an icon? It's as famous as Mickey Mouse's ears or a Coca-Cola bottle. Che Guevara must be one of the globalised world's most lucrative brands. I hope that by some delightful irony Guevara's relatives are secretly making a fortune out of selling all those 'El Che' t-shirts, flags and buttons to those no-logo anti-globalists.

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I did, what I didn't know was that his symbols were used in Europe as well. You see I'm an alien to Europe beyond TV images (and I usually don't watch news) and books.

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Originally Posted by Quid

Switzerland. We'll do fine, I think.

No time to write anything more comprehensible. My apologies.

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Gah, there's never a need to write anything more than: 'Switzerland, it'll do fine'. :shame:

It always does. There is planet earth on the one hand, with all it's ups-and-downs, upheavals, wars. And then there is Switzerland, 300 kilometers of solid, unshakable granite.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Gah, there's never a need to write anything more than: 'Switzerland, it'll do fine'. :shame:

It always does. There is planet earth on the one hand, with all it's ups-and-downs, upheavals, wars. And then there is Switzerland, 300 kilometers of solid, unshakable granite.

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Yes, it's good to live here. :2thumbsup: At times, though, I wished we had some student upheavals or something.

I suppose, we will hit the news at the World Cup when we throw France out of the competition...:laugh4: (To add, since we're clearly too stupid to hold our own against English club level we have to beat someone...).

Quid

We'll do fine as long as we are able to stay out of the European Udder.

At second thought: there is no need to pull in the oars if a membership becomes reality. We’ll do fine nevertheless.