Holocaust Deniers Convention (Light Refreshments Served)

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They're often the same people that believe that the ancient Egyptians where white, that the Carthaginians were Indo-European, that the Romans had a doctrine of racial superiority et cetera.

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The carthaginians were pheonician. Thier lineage is closely related to the other syrian peoples, including those of jewish heritage. As for the egyptians, they would not have looked like what people from that area look like now. That was a very turbulent area, that went through many different invasions. Though the fact that they would refer to the nubians as a very dark skinned people does point towards the fact that they were rather light skinned at the time. But still there are some places in egypt that you can find people of a paler skin who have a lineage linked to the gelatian celts. Most of the middle easterners would look nothing like they do now. In Iran alone during the mongol invasions over 90% of the population was destroyed. A very turbulent area and it's more then a stretch to say what anyone of persian and other other middle eastern cultures looked like, let alone skin color.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Honestly, maybe Iran has something here. Mentioned the Anne Frank diary earlier, whose authenticity cannot be questioned, that is weird since some parts are written with a ballpoint, which wasn't commercially introduced untill 1950.

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The ballpoint pen was invented in WWII. Used by many pilots becuase other forms of pens wouldnt work at high altitude. Whoever came up with that kind of a theory is attempting more then just presenting interesting facts that contradict history, their trying to rewrite it.

The holocaust happened, millions were senselessly killed by the Nazi's purely in an attempt of genocide. Making a law that bans the denile though is merely adding fuel to a fire. By forcing this history on people with a threat of punishment you simply make the other side more appealing.

“Well I am not going to allow myselve to be forced into a position on all this, but it does make for a few valid questions, such as why there was never found any trace of gas in the so-called death camps.” Zyclon B was very volatile gas, a non-persistent agent, and it was aimed to kill rats. This kind of product you don’t want to stay in your kitchen. They used of CO2 as well, you know, produce by combustion: if they didn’t find some, they have to check their tools and machines. Now, if the deniers can explain the 30 cm of human residues and ashes around all the camps, if they can explain why the Nazis themselves never denied the holocaust, if they can provide the bills and the manufacturers which were paid and involved in the Allies plan of construction, THAT will be a great step forward of their claims. Until this, just take a plane, or walk in Europe. I can give you an address: The Strutoff, Alsace, France. After the visit, you can go top speak to he local French and explain them that their relatives and family members exterminated there are just an allies lie…

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Originally Posted by BigTex

The carthaginians were pheonician. Thier lineage is closely related to the other syrian peoples, including those of jewish heritage.

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Yes, semetic ~;)


That was the point. These people try to claim those great societies as Aryan, while that contradicts the most basic things we know about them. Just like with the Holocaust they just view things in the manner that suits their doctrine best.

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Yes, semetic

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Yes "semetic" you could say. Really thats a horrible term though, languages often did varried quite alot between those cultures. The only thing that groups most of them is that they share a genetic ancestry. They really need a better term, one that refers to a language group in which there was actually quite alot of variation is not that great of a term.

There is still something to be said though about the general who has the record for winning the most outnumbered battle being related to the jewish people.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

(I've been away for a bit, forgive me if we've moved on from that one.)

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No, we haven't. And yes, you have. And so have I. Since you are a lawyer I figured you were either pissing away your clients' money in Rio or sweating in one of Her Majesty's Prisons. Since I am a journalist it probably figures that I figured that.

Which is to say you have been sorely missed. Your comments are on the mark as always. British Conservatives acquit themselves very well as long as they keep losing elections.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Very strange people, I was curious about all this and went to a nazi site, you probably know which one, no pleasant company I might add. As it is it is still true, there aren't any gas traces, as was investigated by an canadian chemist that got jailed for his conclusions. Many of the revisionist arguments make too much sense to me, not going to say that they are all nuts.

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The Canadian is a dentist, I believe. Anyway, I have followed these people for years. They send me their brochures on the assumption that as a journalist I somehow have an illicit interest or facination for these materials since they are anathema in this country. I don't. Their 'findings' and contentions make no sense.

But I can't prove it because then I will be banned from this forum. It is precisely because of such restrictions that the nonsense flourishes and becomes a subterranean cult for people who have an axe to grind with society. All this crap wouldn't hold up for a day in open debate, but we can't have an open debate. It is a real shame.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

It is precisely because of such restrictions that the nonsense flourishes and becomes a subterranean cult for people who have an axe to grind with society. All this crap wouldn't hold up for a day in open debate, but we can't have an open debate. It is a real shame.

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I wouldn't say that, there are a lot of other urban myths and other kinds of weird "knowledge" around which are not forbidden to talk about.
If people have a fascination for something or want to belive the government is bad for some reason they will always come up with something. Just have a look at the US, they are so free and can debate about anything, and they have more Nazis, KKK, Phelpses and other weird guys than most european countries.:sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by BigTex

Yes "semetic" you could say. Really thats a horrible term though, languages often did varried quite alot between those cultures. The only thing that groups most of them is that they share a genetic ancestry. They really need a better term, one that refers to a language group in which there was actually quite alot of variation is not that great of a term.

There is still something to be said though about the general who has the record for winning the most outnumbered battle being related to the jewish people.

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Well if we're to believe everything historians noted about Alexander, he would hold that title and not Hannibal.
The Phoenicians come pretty close to the Greeks as far as their contribution to civilization is concerned. The Greek alphabet was originally just an adaption of the Phoenician writing for example.
I doubt that religious jews would appreciate the relation, though- seeing as how the Carthaginians were Phoenicians, the people wich the Jews called Canaanites.

(btw, the Jews attributed the Canaanites to Ham's lineage and not that of Sem- so "Semetic" is a bit of an ironic term...)

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Originally Posted by GoreBag

I suddenly had a mental image that compared this to an anime convention. I wonder if there was SS cosplay.

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https://img173.imageshack.us/img173/...d8888dooo4.jpg


sorry, best I could dig up

Interview with David Duke live from the conference. He must have felt right at home.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

Well if we're to believe everything historians noted about Alexander, he would hold that title and not Hannibal.
The Phoenicians come pretty close to the Greeks as far as their contribution to civilization is concerned. The Greek alphabet was originally just an adaption of the Phoenician writing for example.
I doubt that religious jews would appreciate the relation, though- seeing as how the Carthaginians were Phoenicians, the people wich the Jews called Canaanites.

(btw, the Jews attributed the Canaanites to Ham's lineage and not that of Sem- so "Semetic" is a bit of an ironic term...)

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Alexander very well would hold that title if we believed all the classical historians. But then we would also have to accept that he was a living god. Hannibal's battles were well documented by both sides.

The micenians were related to the pheonicians, so they didn't just donate an alphabet, they gave us the Greeks.

The religious jews wouldnt like alot of things that happened historicly in that area. Especially the sheer amount of religious transfer that went on between jewdaism and zorastrianism. An interesting footnote that came from the cultural transfer was the idea of angels, it had originated with the persian zorastrian culture.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Very strange people, I was curious about all this and went to a nazi site, you probably know which one, no pleasant company I might add. As it is it is still true, there aren't any gas traces, as was investigated by an canadian chemist that got jailed for his conclusions. Many of the revisionist arguments make too much sense to me, not going to say that they are all nuts.

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This is precisely my point. Creating law's that jail people for not thinking a correct way backfire. Making laws that ban denying the holocaust will only make the denile that much more believable. A man who's jailed for standing up to the man also will gain support from anti establishment crowed.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Interview with David Duke live from the conference. He must have felt right at home.

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Did you notice how he defended Ahmadinejad’s (or Ajay among friends) call for the destruction of the United States?

A true patriot.

I find it interesting to have a law for such a thing. For math or maybe even spelling there is a black and white answer for most questions but because history is so subjective and almost fluid with the trend of the day, having a definitive “law” of certain historical events kind of makes sense if only to eliminate any confusion that may be encountered while reading the many “editorial” style (and often questionable) historical recounts of whatever your researching.

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Originally Posted by yesdachi

I find it interesting to have a law for such a thing. For math or maybe even spelling there is a black and white answer for most questions but because history is so subjective and almost fluid with the trend of the day, having a definitive “law” of certain historical events kind of makes sense if only to eliminate any confusion that may be encountered while reading the many “editorial” style (and often questionable) historical recounts of whatever your researching.

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That's precisely why that law exists though. So that in the future it can't be doubted. So that something that bad doesn't happen again (except in Rwanda/Bosnia/Darfur etc).

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Originally Posted by BDC

So that something that bad doesn't happen again (except in Rwanda/Bosnia/Darfur etc).

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As a very confusing sign in front of a local synagogue read, "Never again is now." Frightening or appropriate, depending on how you choose to read it.

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Originally Posted by Dâriûsh

Did you notice how he defended Ahmadinejad’s (or Ajay among friends) call for the destruction of the United States?

A true patriot.

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He's just bitter about not getting elected President. :bounce:

Its amazing the stupidity of the nazi's. Hitler couldve used the trains and material to fuel his war machine, he COULDVE won if he handnt gone a jew-killing rampage.

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Originally Posted by holybandit

Its amazing the stupidity of the nazi's. Hitler couldve used the trains and material to fuel his war machine, he COULDVE won if he handnt gone a jew-killing rampage.

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If you're going to play "what if," I would think that not invading Russia would be much higher on the list than anything else ...

I thought that a lot of the time the Jews were winnowed (using sorter machines provided by IBM amongst others) so that the ones that could work hard were worked to death.

A few trains would not alter things one way or another.

Invading Russia would have been OK with a few caveats: commencing the assault in February / March, concentrating the attack on one objective and possibly having some decent cold weather gear are the first that come to mind.

~:smoking:

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If you're going to play "what if," I would think that not invading Russia would be much higher on the list than anything else ...

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Funny..... I would have thought not declaring war on the USA would have had a far more profound impact then not killing the jews.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

If you're going to play "what if," I would think that not invading Russia would be much higher on the list than anything else ...

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Don't forget a proper and sufficient diet. Stalingrad did turn into the largest double blind study on refeeding-syndrome.:dizzy2:

“Making laws that ban denying the holocaust will only make the denile that much more believable.” What is ban is the denial. You can question the figures, the methods etc… What is forbidden is to just say “it never happened”.
And the deniers are not interested in debate. They just reinforce the anti-Semitic feeling.
Some in this site used the word believe (or do not believe) in the Holocaust. We are not on a field of history but ideology. We have more proof of the existence of the death camps and the extermination than the proof of the battle of Azincourt (in French in the text) and Johann of Arc trial.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

I thought that a lot of the time the Jews were winnowed (using sorter machines provided by IBM amongst others) so that the ones that could work hard were worked to death.

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You know, Soviet gulags were apparently more effective production-wise than the Nazi "arbeit mach frei" systems. Which is saying something, really. But then the Soviet camps were mainly about forced labour, not killing people through it which ought to make for a fair bit of difference in work morale.
That the Nazis intentionally under-fed their slave labour didn't help any, of course.

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A few trains would not alter things one way or another.

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Given the sheer scale of the "final solution" and the raw numbers of shipments involved, and the fact that this was largely done on the exact same railway system that was used to supply the armies of the Eastern Front, this statement is only true per ce and not in the context of WW2. I've been told the military was quite opposed to the whole extermination camp idea exactly for this reason - they had no difficulty seeing it would tie up enormous amounts of logistical, industrial and transport capacity direly needed for the war effort.

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Invading Russia would have been OK with a few caveats: commencing the assault in February / March, concentrating the attack on one objective and possibly having some decent cold weather gear are the first that come to mind.

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Sensible logistical planning would have been a decent addition. By what I understand of it the German armies basically operated on Thirty Years' War principle when it came to food - namely, they "lived off the land" which was naturally an excellent way to further alienate the populace. Having to appropriate foodstuffs from French farmers and ship them over to the Soviet front was not exactly a terribly workable long-term solution either, since among other things it rather pointlessly pissed off said Frenchmen something fierce.
But then, none of the Axis turned out to be very good at this whole logistics and long-term planning thing. Which put them at something of a serious disadvantage really, as modern industrial wars are to a fairly large degree decided just by those. Something to do with their rather kooky Nietzschean ideologies and (in the cases of Mussolinin and Hitler anyway) amateurish Great Leaders who refused to admit themselves to be in the wrong regardless of evidence, one would imagine.

Armies lived on the land in the Napoleonic wars as well. Like with his expedition to Russia....errr

what point was I goint to make again? ~:confused:

I see little wrong with such a convention, if they wish to deny it let them, I deny that I am warm hearted and generous each and every day at school, yet everyone knows that is halfway to a lie, I say no when they want money (they are at the same school as me they should have at least three coins to rub between their fingers), but it does not change the fact that I have emotions and that I help those who help themselves.

Back to topic, They want to deny the proof that can be shown whenever they wish, it is their option, we have no right to impose our beliefs on them, though we can strongly argue the point.

My memory might be a bit dodgy, but didn't Chaim Weizmann ask for a Jewish State to be created in payment for war services (British bombs sucked and he helped them to become unsucky) and because of the Holocaust, all ways round though all religions may use Jerusalem for prayer, the Jews haven't banned Christiaans and Moslims from their places of worship.

If they are going to use G-d as a justification for war, maybe they should look back at the 6 day war, I doubt that without serious divine intervention Israel would have survived.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

All this crap wouldn't hold up for a day in open debate, but we can't have an open debate. It is a real shame.

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The ones that want debate probably want it for the wrong reasons, at least that is the impression I got. Whatever the method, a lot of people got murdered. The method doesn't make sense but so does killing a lot of people, I guess it doesn't need to make sense. Not entirely sure if Auswitschz was what we think it was anymore, but it really wouldn't change anything so it's best to just leave it all be.

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Not entirely sure if Auswitschz was what we think it was anymore, but it really wouldn't change anything so it's best to just leave it all be.

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Well fragony , what do you think "we" think it was ?
Also which camp do you think people think about , there were 3 different ones , the concentration camp , the extermination camp and the labour camp .
Though the first was also used for extermination .