Holocaust Deniers Convention (Light Refreshments Served)

[Prince of the Poodles]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,236014,00.html

In a wierd sort of way, I find it ironic that such a meeting could be hosted in Iran but not in many Western countries.

Certainly the evidence for the holocaust is strong enough that denying it doesnt need to be made illegal?

[Scurvy]

I don't understand why it is illegal, if you want to belive that the holocaust doesnt exist, then whats the rpoblem, in a way a debate is quite useful on the subject, and many european countries would be too touchy to even start a debate about it...

[English assassin]

Certainly the evidence for the holocaust is strong enough that denying it doesnt need to be made illegal?

Tongue in cheek, I'd rather see the denial of natural selection made illegal, certainly. (I've been away for a bit, forgive me if we've moved on from that one.)

Although as a general principle I would agree that the way to deal with any stupid or malevolent viewpoint is to bring it out in the open and then squash it, I think there are two arguments, one general and one specific, that could support holocaust denial being a crime. The general one is that the global population do not seem to share my faith in rational argument, and probably don't have the advantages we do in getting access to reasonably relaible information. Sure, we know that a holocaust denial conference in Europe could only be half a dozen crazies, but what if it gets reported in, I don't know, Indonesia. They probably know as much about the history of the holocaust as I know about their history, which i am afraid to say is next to zero.

The specific reason is that a large number is people will be caused very real pain by allowing groups to go about shouting that the holocaust didn't happen. Rightly or wrongly there are certain kinds of offence we are not allowed to cause (racial abuse would be another).

For me the balance is still on the side of allowing the deniers their right to free speech, but I can see why other countries feel differently.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Woo! EA is back.

I don't think banning expressing a particular viewpoint is ever wise, unless it is explicitly inciting violence.

[drone]

Welcome back, EA!

As for the conference, one question. Can they keep David Duke? Seriously?

[KukriKhan]

Isn't the whole point of having such a convention (especially one without holocaust survivors present) to create a seemingly civilized pretext to further the view:

"Since the so-called holocaust either never existed or was exaggerated, then one of the reasons for the creation of Israel is removed or reduced." ?

Then, 15-20 years from now, when Iran introduces a UN resolution to abolish the state of Israel due to illegitimate founding, it won't be immediately laughed at/ignored?

Plant a seed. Then take 'the long view'. Strategy.

(Utter ballox, o'course, but hardly a new plan).

[Ironside]

I don't know, Indonesia. They probably know as much about the history of the holocaust as I know about their history, which i am afraid to say is next to zero.

Only a minor note combining holocaust and Indonesia that made quite fitting to your point.
Our social studies teacher was on vacation in Indonesia and there he encountered hotel Swastika, with the symbol very publically viewed.

[Watchman]

The angled Nazi Hakenkreutz or the godawfully ancient sun symbol they were ripping off, though ?

[BDC]

As Auntie put it:...

Mr Ahmadinejad has repeatedly downplayed the extent of the Holocaust, describing it as a myth used to justify the existence of Israel and oppression of the Palestinians. He has called for an end to the Israeli state.

Many Iranians must be wondering why they have the right to deny the Holocaust with impunity, but not to question their own leaders without risking jail, our correspondent says.

In recent months, newspapers have been closed, journalists jailed and students penalised for engaging in any sort of political activity in Iran.

[Reenk Roink]

Just despicable...

[JimBob]

David Duke? Isn't the KKK a WASP only group? Iranians are defiantly neither Anglo-Saxon or Protestant. Or have the Klukkers gone to "only black and Jew." hating.

[BigTex]

Only a minor note combining holocaust and Indonesia that made quite fitting to your point.
Our social studies teacher was on vacation in Indonesia and there he encountered hotel Swastika, with the symbol very publically viewed.

The swasticka is a symbol for good luck. It was commonly found and used in the late 1800's and 1900's. It's even found on alot of letters home to loved ones during WWI. It usually had it's points tilted to the right though.

The Nazi's though decided to use it as one of the many ancient symbol's though. When they applyed it to their flags they tilted the points to the left, creating the god awful relationship between a symbol of good will and luck and the evil crimes and horrible mentality of the Nazi's.

Quite sad really.

It's good that their meeting, the world can now benefit from seeing the evil congrigate in one place. Law's banning the denile are rediculous and merely stiffen and support the denile. They should be allowed to voice whatever opinion they have, reason will always disprove them. Debate will also help to clear up any false idea's people have about the holocaust. The world can only benefit from debate about history. The truth is hidden when it's forced on people.

[Husar]

Oh well, they got free food and housing from Mr. Ahmadinejad I guess so all of those poor, misunderstood individuals probably went there because of that and because they finally found some friends to share their hatred with.
Here we do not even disallow denying the holocaust, we have also banned all Nazi symbology except for historical texts I think. And in that case I don't think it's a particularly bad idea, because we still have Neonazis, despite all the good arguments against it.

[Papewaio]

Only a minor note combining holocaust and Indonesia that made quite fitting to your point.
Our social studies teacher was on vacation in Indonesia and there he encountered hotel Swastika, with the symbol very publically viewed.

Was your teacher in Bali?

In Buddhist dominated societies the symbol which looks like the Nazi Swastika is in fact the Buddhist Swastika.

The Buddhist Swastika being the older version of the symbol of the two and very common on Buddhist temples, hotels and very often Buddhist Vegetarian Eateries.

Also when looking at a menu in a restaurant that caters for all the vegetarian meals will have a Swastika like symbol marked beside them. These can be seen throughout regions which have a large Buddhist population and even in some places within the rest of Indonesia which has various portions of faiths... although Jakarta is dominated by people of Muslim upbringing (of which some are now secular... but still have a cultural muslim heritage).

Even knowing this and being married to someone of Buddhist heritage and having traveled through Indonesia I was mentally freaked when I arrived in Taiwan. Having jet lag and half asleep seeing temples and restaurants marked with the Swastika was a bit of a shock.

[Ice]

Isn't the whole point of having such a convention (especially one without holocaust survivors present) to create a seemingly civilized pretext to further the view:

"Since the so-called holocaust either never existed or was exaggerated, then one of the reasons for the creation of Israel is removed or reduced." ?

Then, 15-20 years from now, when Iran introduces a UN resolution to abolish the state of Israel due to illegitimate founding, it won't be immediately laughed at/ignored?

Plant a seed. Then take 'the long view'. Strategy.

(Utter ballox, o'course, but hardly a new plan).

A UN resolution?(I actually laughed out loud) Haa Haa Haa Haa.

Do you think nuclear armed Israel would simply obey the resolution?

[KukriKhan]

A UN resolution?(I actually laughed out loud) Haa Haa Haa Haa.

Do you think nuclear armed Israel would simply obey the resolution?

Exactly. 20 years from now, after the last Holocaust survivor (first-hand testifier) has been buried, and all that exists of it are memorials and histories (second- and third-hand testimonies) - fewer delegates will laugh out loud; many convinced of a Zionist hoax because of conventions like these. Some others with 'substantial' doubts about report accuracy; and yet others crying for open minds to all views.

And in 2026, nuclear-armed Israel may be daunted by nuclear-armed Iran, Syria, Jordan, Palestine & Egypt; nuclearized by the failure of the west to prevent it.

Plant a seed. Bury it. Water it. Wait. It will grow, eventually.

[Xiahou]

Here's a choice quote from Mahmoud's closing remarks:

"Just as the Soviet Union was wiped out and today does not exist, so will the Zionist regime soon be wiped out,"

[Strike For The South]

Meh let em organize and belive it wont change a danged thing. As soon as we stop caring we dont realize they are there anymore.

[English assassin]

Iranians are defiantly neither Anglo-Saxon or Protestant

They are aryan though. Not that I would expect the KKK to know that.

Annoyingly, I can't find a link to a story in the Guardian that told me that a Arab Israeli speaker at the conference had his pass revoked when it was realised that his speech was going to confirm that yes, in fact the holocaust did happen. Which rather puts the free speech argument into perspective, nit that it wasn't in perspective already.

Nice to be back guys. Man, the food in HMP is terrible. Oh, and BKS, the hair? Is it too late to vote for a "Sid Vicious"? You know it makes sense.

[Fragony]

Sounds like a great party. Ah well let them, it is kinda rediculous that denying the holocaust is a crime in some european countries. It does kinda make us look like fools that such a conference would not be possible in the 'free world' where we like freedom of speech so much.

@EA, he was refused because of his visum, Iran doesn't recognise the state of Israel.

That is what they said at least.

[Petrus]

The criminalization of denial of the genocide of the jews during WWII has nothing to do with freedom of speech.

Nazism was not born from nothing in the late 1920’s and the holocaust was possible only because anti-semitism was widely shared into European population.

This does not mean that Europeans were pogromers, but the idea that jews had something specific that made them different, not integrated into European populations, allowed the relative passivity into which the massive deportation took place.

In the decade that followed the war, the shoah became an absolute argument to prevent anti-semitism as people promoting this form of racism were assimilated to genociders.

To be able to grow once again, antisemits need to destroy this argument to be able to remove the image of children killers that is tied to their activities.

As the denial of the holocaust is absolutely pointless and inept it is punished by the law as a promotion of racism, which is right.

Nothing to do with freedom of speech, everything with anti-semitism.

[Fragony]

The criminalization of denial of the genocide of the jews during WWII has nothing to do with freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech means that the government can't prosecute you for your believes, now they can and thus we don't have it. There are also jewish revisionists by the way, David Cole for example, what about him?

[doc_bean]

One of the problems of 'freedom' is that you can't attack someone attacking 'freedom' without attacking (their) 'freedom' as well.

It's a difficult issue what you should and what you shouldn't allow in a 'free' society. I'm not for the ban on holocaust denial, but then I also don't see any reason to deny it. I'm pretty neutral on the subject, though i fear the slippery slope...

[Idaho]

Encouraging that there is a significant group within Iran protesting, or trying to protest, about this. The president was heckled throughout a speech at Tehran University last week.

[Fragony]

though i fear the slippery slope...

That slippery slope goes the other direction, it's also forbidden to question the authenticity of the Anne Frank diary for example, which I find pretty rediculous.

[doc_bean]

That slippery slope goes the other direction, it's also forbidden to question the authenticity of the Anne Frank diary for example, which I find pretty rediculous.

I was actually talking about that slope.

[monkian]

That slippery slope goes the other direction, it's also forbidden to question the authenticity of the Anne Frank diary for example, which I find pretty rediculous.

My girl friend, her mate and I were in Amstersdam and we couldn't find the Anne Frank house.

I told her not to feel bad as it took the Nazis 3 years to find it.

Apparently this was in poor taste ?

I'll get my coat.

[Fragony]

My girl friend, her mate and I were in Amstersdam and we couldn't find the Anne Frank house.

I told her not to feel bad as it took the Nazis 3 years to find it.

You could have asked a local, worked for the nazi's

[monkian]

I didnt mind, I wanted to get stoned

[Fragony]

That's the scary part, so did they