My first go with the Turks

>>>>You're running on a Radeon 8500 though which is similar to the 9000 I was using. I wonder if it's an ATI driver problem, as I've never had this particular problem using other brands, though maybe others have? :dizzy2: >>>>


Mh, maybe so please all users post your videocard (sorry for OT)

Well i played today for some hours (this game is too addictive, some work wasn´t done because of that - this is one of the games which players needs much self-descipline to quit the game and do something more important ) and no error this time. I also disabled the autosave like suggested above.

I didnt destroy the armorer's, as the advice given was sage why waste the 4 years? This weekend I had a chance to think out what was going to happen next. My goal has always been to take Constantanople, but to be honest the Byzantines are a tough nut to crack. They have taken out the serbs, and the hungarians and have a nice european empire with lots of jedi heirs running around.

I am convinced that the turk force structure (mine anyway) and defeat there generals in europe unless its a massive multi pronged attack. I have 4 armies with AHC's, THA's, and sacren infantry, each commanded by a 4+ star general.

This weekend i swept accross north africa to morocco where the almohads reappeared. I built a navy that has my connected to all sea zones in the med/black sea and I am starting to round spain. So as I am building up provinces and, turtling a little I turn on the matteosatori cheat just to see where everything is.

the hre is gone, France is dominanting, but the english have the entire British isles conquered and held normandy. The volga bulgarians (to my surprise) have eliminated both russian factions and are in a death match with lithuania in the north. Poland and the Cumans are lingering around the black sea and most of italy is controlled by the pope.

then venice went rebel, i invade win with ease and now have a base from which to invade the byz into serbia. Also portugal has taken iberia. I did take a screen shot but my rig at home is so stripped down I dont have a program from which i can view the pic. I will try and get that pic up and post it in the history of your empire thread or something.

Thanks again,

Odin

This really has nothing to do with anything in this thread, I just wanted to say it:clown:
I played around little with custom battles today, and practised a bit with javelin infantry (mostly Slav Javelinmen and Jobbagys) and realised what it would be to have a unit like JHI with javelins...Put them on a hill, let the enemy attack you. You throw about two-three volleys, killing 3-20 men (depending on what unit is attacking) and then charge them - using your charge bonus... *drools*

Of course, it would be even better to have a 100 man unit of JHI armed with longbows or arbalests, but that's just a bit too far off.

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Originally Posted by Innocentius

This really has nothing to do with anything in this thread, I just wanted to say it:clown:
I played around little with custom battles today, and practised a bit with javelin infantry (mostly Slav Javelinmen and Jobbagys) and realised what it would be to have a unit like JHI with javelins...Put them on a hill, let the enemy attack you. You throw about two-three volleys, killing 3-20 men (depending on what unit is attacking) and then charge them - using your charge bonus... *drools*

Of course, it would be even better to have a 100 man unit of JHI armed with longbows or arbalests, but that's just a bit too far off.

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I think what you are looking for are armored almughavars. If you start an XL game in Latem, I think there is a nice rebel stack of them waiting to be bribed in Greece.

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

I think what you are looking for are armored almughavars. If you start an XL game in Latem, I think there is a nice rebel stack of them waiting to be bribed in Greece.

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PLy as the Irish on XL, ultimate javelin faction (i created armies of all javelin units when playing as them, and they actually work) :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Scurvy

PLy as the Irish on XL, ultimate javelin faction (i created armies of all javelin units when playing as them, and they actually work) :2thumbsup:

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i personally never liked the javelin units until i played a round with the hungarians. I cant remember the unit name but they were cheap and really helped clog up enemy units for my Szelesky and avar nobles to demolish.

And on a final note, in one of my many forays with the english William the conquerer died at the hands of one of those filthy irish javelins :)

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Originally Posted by Odin

i personally never liked the javelin units until i played a round with the hungarians. I cant remember the unit name but they were cheap and really helped clog up enemy units for my Szelesky and avar nobles to demolish.

And on a final note, in one of my many forays with the english William the conquerer died at the hands of one of those filthy irish javelins :)

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Jogaby are the hungarian javelins, and they are quite good, i norm put them on hold and have my ha's fall back into them and then round, giving them 2-3 volleys at enemy flank, normally kills over half the unit,

was william hit in the eye? :idea2:

Well, personally I think Jobbaggy are pretty useless. They are after all only peasants except in a smaller unit and they throw a volley or two before they get massacred by whatever it is that hits them.
The Irish javelin units are a lot better, but they suffer from the problem that they don't stand a chance against cavalry (all javelin units suffer from this).

Thinking of it, I might have to mod the JHIs so that they can fire arbalest projectiles:idea2:

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Originally Posted by Innocentius

Well, personally I think Jobbaggy are pretty useless. They are after all only peasants except in a smaller unit and they throw a volley or two before they get massacred by whatever it is that hits them.
The Irish javelin units are a lot better, but they suffer from the problem that they don't stand a chance against cavalry (all javelin units suffer from this).

Thinking of it, I might have to mod the JHIs so that they can fire arbalest projectiles:idea2:

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Jobbaggy are bad against cav, but when put on hold they can at least stop the enemy unit for a while, 2-3 volleys is enough to kill at least a 3rd of the unit, they are best when used with the support of cav for flanking etc.

irish javs are better, and the best can equal cav when put on engage and chaged, i can;t remember what they are called right now, but the ones with the small shields certainly can :2thumbsup:

The jobbaggy are only useful if you can hide them behind a friendly spear unit, during a defensive bridge battle. They could probably serve as garrison troops, as they are cheap and available only with a fort, I believe. They have horrible morale and there is no way they can stop a cavalry charge even by Steppe Cavalry - they will rout instantly on impact, at least on expert. Slav Javelinmen have a bit better morale (still low though), but they, as well as the Jobbaggy, the Kerns and the Dartmen have little armor and die in large numbers when they get in the range of enemy missiles. The best javelin unit in the XL mod are the Bashkorts, available to the Volga Bulgars and the Cumans. They actually have a cavalry defending and ranking bonuses. With plenty of armor upgrades they can do wonders.

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Originally Posted by Odin

I didnt destroy the armorer's, as the advice given was sage why waste the 4 years?

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:jawdrop: I gave sage advice? Well I guess even I can have a rare moment.

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Originally Posted by Innocentius

Well, personally I think Jobbaggy are pretty useless. They are after all only peasants except in a smaller unit and they throw a volley or two before they get massacred by whatever it is that hits them.
The Irish javelin units are a lot better, but they suffer from the problem that they don't stand a chance against cavalry (all javelin units suffer from this).

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Originally Posted by Scurvy

irish javs are better, and the best can equal cav when put on engage and chaged, i can;t remember what they are called right now, but the ones with the small shields certainly can

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The Irish unit you are trying to think of is Kerns, unless the Irish have another jav unit.

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

The jobbaggy are only useful if you can hide them behind a friendly spear unit, during a defensive bridge battle ... They have horrible morale and there is no way they can stop a cavalry charge even by Steppe Cavalry - they will rout instantly on impact, at least on expert. Slav Javelinmen have a bit better morale (still low though), but they, as well as the Jobbaggy, the Kerns and the Dartmen have little armor and die in large numbers when they get in the range of enemy missiles. The best javelin unit in the XL mod are the Bashkorts, available to the Volga Bulgars and the Cumans. They actually have a cavalry defending and ranking bonuses. With plenty of armor upgrades they can do wonders.

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Dare I even ask what some of you guys are forcing your poor javelinmen to do? Just kidding, well here's some notes for anyone who is interested.

The first line of Kavhan Isbul's quote is the classic, most simple way to use javs. They are definately not meant to stop a charge of Cavalry. Expecting them to do so, is like expecting Archers to stop the same charge.

For starters, turn skirmish off. Unless you are playing a mod that has adjusted the range of a Javelin the jav unit will always move away from an advancing unit before firing. Javelimen are used to deal with Armored Units, the more armor the better they do. This does not mean they should be attacking just Cav, any Armored unit is a target, its just Cav are the most often used example because they tend to have alot of Armor and are bigger targets. Not all Cav resemble tanks though, Hobilars, Saharan Cav, and most of your light Cav aren't armored up at all. However, Swiss Arm. Pikes, Halbrediers, CMAAs, and any Foot Knights are some of the many other good targets.

They should be used in concert with a pinning unit. In the case of Cavs, Spears should pin the unit and then the javs should fire away, preferrably from the flank, although from behind the pinning unit works as well. For other units use the rock, paper, scissors, method. Melee units get pinned by Cav, for Polearms I would suggest a melee unit although I'm a bit uncertain about them.

As for Archer type units, they will get smacked around an awful lot. Remember at range Archers beat everyone. If your forced to use javs against Archers your best bet is put them on engage at will and charge the Archers.

Some javs are better then others. IIRC Kerns and Spanish Javelinmen are competent melee fighters, although in this regard they make better flank and charge units, then charge headlong into the fray units.

Javelin units are some of the harder units in the game. They take alot of trial and error to get right. Once you get the magic combo, then they are very satisfying to use. I think that's everything, but in case its not, I will plug Froggies Unit guide, she has a number of good ideas as well.

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Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior

The Irish unit you are trying to think of is Kerns, unless the Irish have another jav unit.

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Nah, I think you mean Bonnachts, they have shields and come in 100-men units. The Irish have two javelin units apart from Kerns: Bonnachts and Irish Dartmen.

Of course I don't expect my javelin units to take on a cavalry charge (although I have made them recieve a few when I felt they were exposable:laugh4: ), the problem is they don't have enough time to run away from pretty much any unit. They're too slow to work as skirmishers, as soon as an enemy unit charges them, they won't be able to run far enough off for the enemy unit to let go and turn their attention to something else. Like horse archer can simple ride away out of the enemy units "line of attentions", the javelin units have to use their own legs, and are thus not quick enough. And once they get caught in the slightest melee, they're screwed.

Arr...Bashkorts, me ole enemies...Annoying bastards. I had a battle against the Cumans (I played as the Hungarians and had quickly robbed them off Wallachia and Moldavia) where they proved very frustrating. They seemed to wait behind the line of spearmen untill all my arrows (both from archers and Szekely in their rear) were gone, and then moved up and showered my spear wall with javelins. As I was too weak to attack, all I could do was to wait until they too ran out of spears and were forced to attack.
Got my revenge though, seems Bashkorts, even with +1 armour don't stand a chance against valour 2 FMAAs:charge:

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Originally Posted by Innocentius

Nah, I think you mean Bonnachts, they have shields and come in 100-men units. The Irish have two javelin units apart from Kerns: Bonnachts and Irish Dartmen.

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Whoops, you're right I forgot about them. Man the Irish have more javs then you can shake a stick at.

Of course I am not suggesting that javelnmen should be expected withstand cavalry charges, although armored almughavars and bashkorts could, provided the cavalry is not Mongol Heavies, Katanks, Order Knights or something really heavy. Here I am referring to units in the XL mod.
Overall, I am not a great fan of the Irish units. First of all, not everyone can train them - if you play with a Muslim power they will be simply unavailable. Second, you need to get to Ireland, which may be a bit hard if you are playing with the Byzantines or the Hungarians. Third, you cannot build more than a unit per turn, meaning you may never get enough of them and depending on your faction, gallowglasses might be more needed for your troops.
There are better options in other javelin units. I find the Kerns better than the Jobbaggy, and the latter are only available to the Hungarians, but they can build those everywhere they go, and they have pretty much no building requirements. They come extremely handy when you need to face a Byzantine invasion in Wallachia - great for killing katanks.
However, the Slav javelinmen are even better, because they are trainable in so many provinces. Their usefullness is enhanced by their availability in provinces, which have defensible rivers where javelinmen are a great asset - Muscovy, Kiev, Moldova/Bulgaria (depending which way you expect an invasion to come from). I really love these guys every time the Horde arrives.
I am notsure which factions can build Spanish javelinmen and if those are limited to the Spanish and Aragonese, but these are good and can even be used as flankers, as already noted above, and this is important early when armies are still small and you need to get everything out of every single unit.
The best javelin unit IMO are the jinettes, because of their versatility and huge impact, especially early in the game. They are available in most Iberian provinces and can solve plenty of problems - from Almohad Urban Militia, through Huscarles, to Katanks. It is a pity that the AI has no clue how to use them, but considering that the Spanish tend to become a superpower in every game, this is perhaps a good thing - otherwise the Spanish will have a huge edge similar to that of the Byzantines (or even greater).

Kavhan Isbul: You bring up a number of good points. I have been on a bit of a Catho jag lately so the Irish and Spanish jav units are much easier to acquire than for someone playing an Eastern Faction.

The Jinnettes are the best jav unit hands down. I left them out of my post because they were mounted and everyone was refering to inf jav anyways. The reason why the comp has so many problems with handling Jav units (esp the Jinnettes) is the range of the jav, which is lower than the distance skirmish uses to tell units to start backing away. So by the time a unit is in range to get hit by the Jinnette the Jinnette is already starting to back away.

There is a fix that I know of. If you mod jav's range in the PROJECTILESTATS file to 2500, the javs range is still very short, but can be effectively utilized by the comp. I found this one out in Froggies Guide to MTW (not the unit one). I've used it once or twice and was very surprised at how fast the comp 'got a clue'.

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Originally Posted by Innocentius

Nah, I think you mean Bonnachts, they have shields and come in 100-men units. The Irish have two javelin units apart from Kerns: Bonnachts and Irish Dartmen.

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Irish Dartmen have longer range than most javelins, but are not armor-piercing. Bonnachts throw spears, which are AP, but they only have 1 spear per man. They have decent melee stats, so after the initial devastating volley, they can then finish off a unit pretty easily (think pila-throwing Roman hastati from RTW). IIRC, Bonnachts are not fast units like Kerns and Gallowglasses. Kerns can be considered the "standard" javelin unit, with better melee stats than most.

Basically, the Bonnachts are best used as garrison troops and to chew up large amounts of the throwaway troops that the AI uses (mostly UMs). The Kerns are clearly the best javelin unit for the Irish - and all western European catholics for that matter - while the other two should only be trained in small numbers for special duties.
Another problem with Javelin units overall is that they become outdated pretty rapidly as soon as the year turns 1205. Heck, even a faction able to produce Mounted Sergeants will never again have to worry about javelins.

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

The best javelin unit IMO are the jinettes, because of their versatility and huge impact, especially early in the game. They are available in most Iberian provinces and can solve plenty of problems - from Almohad Urban Militia, through Huscarles, to Katanks. It is a pity that the AI has no clue how to use them, but considering that the Spanish tend to become a superpower in every game, this is perhaps a good thing - otherwise the Spanish will have a huge edge similar to that of the Byzantines (or even greater).

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Originally Posted by Sensei_Warrior

The Jinnettes are the best jav unit hands down. I left them out of my post because they were mounted and everyone was refering to inf jav anyways. The reason why the comp has so many problems with handling Jav units (esp the Jinnettes) is the range of the jav, which is lower than the distance skirmish uses to tell units to start backing away. So by the time a unit is in range to get hit by the Jinnette the Jinnette is already starting to back away.

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Ah, Jinnettes. How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.... ~;p Truly, they're my favorite unit in the game -- even more than Gazi Infantry and Bedouin Camel Warriors -- and for me, that's saying quite a lot. While I generally dislike employing missile cavalry (because of the micromanaging necessary to use them effectively), Jinnettes are definitely an exception.

I think it's because I really do get results with them almost every time -- it's a rare battle of mine in which they fail to play an important role (especially in the Early period). And as Kavhan Isbul pointed out, they're good against a variety of different units (including AUM, of course). His mention of Kataphractoi is an excellent example; those nasty Jedi generals the Byz field all the time provide great target practice for my jinnies as they merrily gallop in circles around them!

It is a pity the AI generally doesn't use them very well, but I doubt anyone who's fought major campaigns against the Spanish/Aragonese minds very much. ~;) They're a real pain to fight against when they're employed effectively!

Oddly enough, for as much as I've played the Spanish (Castille-Leon in XL), I've almost never used Spanish Javelinmen. I think that at first I was too lazy to figure out how one uses them in battle, and then after a while I simply got used to doing without them....especially once I got the hang of Jinnettes. ~:rolleyes:

I never use Spanish Javs either, I'd rather spend my florins on Jinnies.

Actually, after my rather haughty post I am loathe to admit, unless I'm playing the Viking Era I almost never use Javs. They really do involve too much micro management. If I want to micro manage my troops I'll play an Eastern faction.