No teasing! My imagination's already run wild with that tidbit...Sounds fun...:couch:
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No teasing! My imagination's already run wild with that tidbit...Sounds fun...:couch:
Firstly, the “experts” and “numbers” are not always in agreement. Power brokers in EB have had a long history of deferring to either, depending on what outcome they wished. If the ‘numbers’, the democratic process rains supreme ..if the ‘experts’, the masses don’t really know what they are talking about anyway so..etc. Only when there is little contention or dissenters are silenced (posts literally deleted in some cases), do the aforementioned enjoy the support of both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaatu
Secondly, I never assume I’m “absolutely right”.. I’ve been wrong far too many times that it’s embarassing. And yes I do consider facts and haven’t just sat down one day and thought … “Geez I think I believe history was like this today”.
Facts are facts … but regardless of the scientific discipline there is always differing opinion on the interpretation of those facts. Archaeology, History and Anthropology suffer acutely from this due to the very nature of the disciplines’ interpretative analysis / process. This is even more the case when one deals with ancient history and the many and varied holes in the material record and thus our knowledge / understanding. Most of our understanding of ancient history is guess work.. the applied science of the “most likely” outcome / situation.
This “most likely” outcome is at the heart of the debate here and the cause of much angst in EB. For example; the Spartan unit. The so-called “experts” gave evidence of what appeared to be an ornately engraved cuirass. They then extrapolated that data to come up with a Spartan unit that not only had an engraved cuirass that appeared to be gold, but engraved helmet and greaves of gold as well. Now the argument was that it was ‘possible’, given the equipment is known to have existed or (in the case of the helmet and greaves) 'possibly' existed ..and they were going to be a mercenary unit and thus not likely to be too impoverished but it didn’t sit right with many in EB.
Was it “most likely” that a unit of Spartans looked like the depiction presented us? I and many others argued no… despite being derided by the ‘experts’.
It is highly unlikely that any mercenary could have ever afforded the attire that many kings themselves prided themselves on. Add to this the underlying socio-economic conditions these mercenaries hailed from in Sparta and the decline of their society, average remuneration of mercenaries in the period, etc etc.
It was argued that one can’t just take one piece of material evidence and then extrapolate that to a larger demographic / population without supporting evidence. It would be the equivalent of claiming every combatant in Medieval Europe wore plate armour.
I made exactly the same argument about a glorified unit of Celts called the Bodubatae (Raven Helms). And before my detractors go crazy on this, yes..this was one of my own inventions / one of many quasi historical suggestions to CA whilst they were still developing RTW and planning on having generic fantasy / Conan styled units. I deliberately tried to appeal to their sense of 'coolness' to improve a very bad situation. Whilst the unit wasn't adopted, we were fortunate that many ideas were eg. Reworking of the barb units, implementation of Harii / ‘Night Raiders’ etc etc
..but I digress... The Bodubatae (Raven Helms).
Sure we had evidence of the elaborate helmet, but conventional analysis / common sense tells us that such an ornate piece of equipment would have “most likely” been the reserve of the rich and powerful. After much debate and ridicule the unit was thankfully scrapped and the helmet only ended up making an appearance on the Arverni lesser general. People wanted it because they thought it looked cool, but far from the “most likely” situation, it would have been a gross distortion of historical reality if not outright fantasy. I’ve also tried to have all the metal rims removed from Celtic units bar a few notable exceptions, limit the numbers of units wearing chain mail, simplify the elaborate plans for Gallic Oppida, etc etc. Similarly, I have consistently campaigned to tone down (contrary to the beliefs of many eg Urnamma previously) many other overly generous / glorified depictions in EB, my only success usually being branded a trouble maker.
Everyone claims that they wish EB to be the most historically accurate depiction of the ancient world but many will willingly overlook the “most likely” rule and support / solicit grandiose depictions if and when it suits their personal tastes / fancies. If it looks cool, an ‘expert’ wants it and it could possibly, under the most generous / extreme cases, have happened in some alternate universe, it’s in.
Thankfully, enough noise (and a few resignations if my memory serves me correctly) was made about the Spartan unit that it has been re-worked and toned down. I still think having whole Spartan units with engraved cruirass’ is bs imho… but that’s just my “trolling, ridiculous and disappointing” opinion I guess. :shrug:
My2bob
:book:
Why worry about the way the WIP version of the Spartans we had earlier - the first submission by the artist? They are what they are now and the team is happy with it - Hellenic FC's and historians as well as the team as a whole. We never released previous incarnations of this unit as a part of the mod. The system worked when they were too elaborate initially and we cleaned them up. They have an engraved cuirass now still though - is that the extent of why this was brought up or is there more?
As for what they really looked like - nobody knows. It probably wasn't our first WIP, it probably isn't the one we have now, it probably isn't the way Caius depicts his, it probably isn't the way any of us show them. We just don't know. I'll stand behind our depiction as being quite reasonable though, as much as any other for this time period, when all the information about them at this time is marshalled together (and I do mean information about them within half a century on either side of our mod's starting date). Ancient Sparta is my field of study, even though I'm no military historian. If being a Philhellene means I'm labelled as being too close to the material or too sympathetic and biased, then I don't know what to do about it personally. Can't win for losing.
I apologise for not knowing the facts, but while you say the majority was against the Spartan unit and a few pseudo-experts overruled you, the rest of the team (TA, Keravnos, Urnamma, Foot, Kull) says that at least the majority of the experts were for the unit. No-one at the moment has come out to support your story. I'm not saying you're lying, but it seems you're letting your emotions get the best of you. Using phrases like "power brokers" or "dissenters are silenced" only serve to stamp you as a conspiracy theorist.
Second, I'm sure it took a lot of time and research to reach your original conclusions about the Spartan unit, but the problem in scientific community is not about coming up with a theory overnight. It is about building a theory over the span of many years and not letting go of it once it is proven false. This of course does not literally reflect on this situation, for these things are hard to prove or falsify, but it might give people something to think.
Lastly, making a mod is a team effort, and as in every other team effort, everyone has to make compromises or at least be willing to. But again, I know nothing about nothing so I guess I can't say very much. I just hope it works out in the end.
Wow, it's just like when mom used to yell at dad at the dinner table...
*uncomfortable silence*
You're all feckin worng....
...we all know they are naked apart from a titanium cod piece, have five hit points and use the pictish voice mod.....
:)
Don't ruin it for everyone HFox. We've got to save something special for EB2 after all. :grin:
"Sheep! Eat your peas!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheep
*shovels peas in his mouth and stares at table*
Memmmmmooooooorieeeesssss....
:laugh4: Just wait until we get to the “You don’t love me anymore” part!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheep
Get your front row tickets now!
Yes you would think so wouldn’t you but unfortunately, not everyone agrees with us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaatu
but… ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaatu
Obviously my very long explanation / response wasn't to your liking...great! You should have told me your questions were rhetorical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaatu
Now I have to endure the ignorant (self cofessed) musings of a fan boy. Oh the irony! :laugh4: Dam Thaatu, where were you two years ago when EB needed you? :shrug:
~;p Well you obviously believe you know enough to be able to postulate / pass judgement on someone else's input / “conspiracy theories”, etc. As far as working out… Que Sera SeraQuote:
Originally Posted by Thaatu
Merely drawing attention to the previous position of the said experts. The aforementioned / artist stated that the first submission was on strict instruction from the Hellenic FC's / historians. Now I know full well that artists can take a lot of ‘artist’ liberty in the discharging of those instructions, the point worth noting is that the impetus for change came from those supposedly un-qualified in the area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
Yup, acknowledged. “Reasonable” …ok, under certain hypothetical conditions. The problem with “reasonable” is that it is highly relative / subjective and prone to under - over stating / exaggeration beyond the merits of what would be the “most likely” scenario.. depending on any given point of view. This is why I have argued the “most likely” line. For a product that pride’s itself on historical accuracy, “reasonable” doesn’t really gell with the core tenets / vision of the project nor offer the same degree of qualitative analysis that the “most likely” scenario does by it’s very nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
One of the major things that has annoyed me during my tenure with EB (aside from the way you guys treat each other), is the expedient liberties taken in the name of “reasonable coolness”.
Dave, to my knowledge, no one has questioned your knowledge in this area, which I might add is superb. Your knowledge and credentials are not under scrutiny here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
Having said that however, you can be the brightest / most qualified spark on the planet, yet will nonetheless be human and susceptible to error. It’s an issue many intellesia have problems acknowledging.
Nor should you feel the need to do the martyr routine. Again I’m somewhat bemused by the over dramatisation.
My comments have been directed at a group position / modes operandi. Not everyone in this said group share the same degree of culpability. Some are nominal participants, others relatively innocent.. blindly going along with whatever their mates dictate, usually ignorant of the details and responding in a knee jerk fashion completely out of proportion and context with the debate.
I am trying to avoid the personal mud slinging / so-called ad homenim (ok Thaatu may be a recent exception :saint:) that I am so readily accused of. Instead, using the group nomenclature to try and disarm people’s egos and foster a bit of self reflective analysis. So far, no so good.
Team as a whole …you mean those that are left. When left standing alone I guess one could at least take solace by bursting into song, “I did it my way”.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
My grievances?… merely the tip of the ice berg my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
Burn the Heretic!!! :charge:
~:doh: ..sorry ~:)
My2bob
Dave
Well decline of Spartans in hellenistic period comes, in a big part from concentration of land in hands of the few. This means they were not able to field an Army, yet unit of Spartiates would obviously look impresive, as anyone with this status was at this point Very Rich.
A local variation of the Thorakitai (or whateveritnowwasthesedays) Hoplitai phenomenom, in other words. Sorta like how the Massiloi Hoplitai are a local derivation of the standard Hoplitai ? Makes sense to me as a regional curio if nothing else.
This thread gives me headaches. Look Sir My2bob, your campaign is wasting energy (yours and everybody's)....valuable energy that could be used for more creative pursues.....like fishing, cooking, gaestate wrestling and origami.
Psycho, first of all I would like to thank you for whatever you did in the past for EB. I don't know you and I don't know what your contribution was but in any case, thanks because I love EB and I feel grateful towards all those that have contributed to make it what it is.
Now that said, I would like to know what is your motivation now??? Why do you come here and express your evident bitterness about the work of a team you DO NOT belong to anymore and a project you obviously don't care about any longer. If you did care, your posts would have a very different tone.
I mean come on man, get over it....if you don't like EB because there are Aliens with laser guns invading Rome, cool that is your right...go look for a mod that you like and play it or better yet make one of your own. But please stop attacking the EB team on a personal level just because you parted ways in the past and obviously you have not forgotten it.
Please understand that it DOESN'T matter anymore if you were right and they were wrong...you are not part of EB anymore and your post is not motivated by a desire to improve anything. If you think I'm wrong about this, please explain me what is the pourpose (a reasonable and positive one) of coming here and posting like this???? Is it about vengeance? well cool we get it...the EB team did something wrong (in your view)...so now what?, let's make them look bad? is that your altruistic approach on this?. Understand that by doing this you are not lessening them but yourself. Please don't degrade yourself.
Thanks.
But compromises *were* made on the unit - that's the whole point. Anyone who doesn't think that is the case isn't looking at the unit that remains:
-ornamentation on the helmet was removed
-ornamentation on the greaves were removed
-decorations on the cape were removed
-the blue (expensive) and yellow dyes on a little bit of cloth at the shoulders were removed
-all the decoration on the sheath was taken off
-the cuirass engraving itself was toned down
-the wrist guards were removed
-the pteryges were made more in line with other greek units
-the tunic border was simplified from two levels with patterns to one smaller level with simpler pattern
Why so much anger against this unit as it remains and the process that got it this way? It was maybe the most arguing over a unit we've ever had, but anyone can see how much we simplified it from the initial submission, and I'm very happy with the results of all that arguing - it was definitely too much for me also when it first was released and I said so, but I think this is just right (except the Lambda still needs simplifying, but we all agree on that - just haven't gotten around to doing it).
We definitely have at least one other person who doesn't like the unit still though, and I very much respect him saying so, but he still is on the team, working on other things. It's one rarely seen unit after all. But overall I would call .960 (which is the number of members who are pleased or think it's ok as the unit is now) a pretty good batting average. If you call that "blindly following" then so be it - it's a easy way to rationalize not agreeing with a vote.
I don't know what else to do but keep working, and keep pushing everyone else to keep working. That's what we're doing, and I will definitely say that there is no slacking of pace or problem here. Any member can voice their opinion of how things are going also. We do miss your working on celtic units, very much, but other people have to step in and do the best they can now and they are. That's about it.
Hmm... I'm not sure why you're calling me a fanboy...
It's not really fair to take, even a single word, out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSYCHO V
All this can be found from this thread. I was only stating the obvious and was trying to make you understand why an outsider (like me) might have trouble believing you over five other people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaatu
Your explonation was fine, I just wished you left out those phrases that show your emotions a little too clearly about the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSYCHO V
I believe I know about basic human psychology enough to analyse emotions of a writer from nine paragraphs. That's my whole point. I don't want flamewars and I just tried to advice you not to let your emotions take over.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSYCHO V
Now I know you're attacking me, but I don't mind. I can't see why you consider me as an "enemy". For that I apologise again, this time for hurting your feelings, which was not my intent. If you feel like throwing mud at me, I won't throw it back.
Dave, I understand that you're hurt and angry. Why are you being so incredibly visceral though? I mean, there is source documentation for each piece of armor on that Spartan (as it is now), and as Teleklos has been saying, the original unit was too flashy by far. It was toned down, repeatedly.
Do you think we haven't been fair to Celts, or Germans? You had a massive input in those areas, and what's more, I took every bit of your word with the Germans, even doing quite a bit of personal research on the subject, something that was certainly virgin territory for me (researching Celts and Germans).
I respect and love the commitment you had to EB and that you have to the Celtic peoples. I can't help but feel this is a deeper vendetta though. The pure emotional anger that you are expressing is so... visceral.
I really want your personal input here, because this whole thing is not only unsavory, but wholly unnecessary, as many non-members have pointed out.
The whole 'those that are left' comment is just out of the ballpark. We have more team members than ever, and many of the original guys are still around, what's more. Stormy, Myself (if I may include myself in that group), Aymar, Khelvan, and many, many others still give constructive comment or help with development as much as their personal circumstances allow. We've had our disagreements, quite a few off them in fact, and downright arguments. But, for the most part, this team is very much like a big family. I suppose my reason for saying all this is that I still consider you a part of that family, and it really does concern everyone involved here that you're so angry.
I am on MSN all the time. If you want to discuss it with me, my door is always open for you. This thread though, I am tempted to close it, with profuse apologies to the man who began it, whose concerns were not adequately addressed because of your crusade.
But.. What do the other non-members think? Is this 'debate' past any point of usefulness? Do we want to have a war of sources? I can readily provide all of you with specific page numbers and articles as well as specific finds from which this unit is based. Would that settle the argument, or do we need something more?
This whole team has created this mod for our personal enjoyment to some degree, but always with history as the watchword. I want to ask all of you, myself, to come forward with any concerns you might have with accuracy of our units. We do make mistakes, and we've never said otherwise.
There has been a distinct and acknowledged misstep in not including many of your fine skins for the Germans, but due to absences of those working on that particular facet of the mod, I think it was one that we are just going to have to say :oops: and try to fix it for v1.0.
As I said before, Dave, my door is open to you now and always if you'd like to talk about this, but airing all this anger in as much 'public' as the internet can provide doesn't help anyone, and merely, as Cronos has stated, takes much needed energy and expends it on a struggle that must be, from your tone, at least as much personally directed against the team as against source material or construction process for individual units.
In any case, I've taken up too much of my and all of your time, and I must get back to my studies.
I would like to see the sources used, not to further this argument, but simply to get a grasp of the source material used by the Europa Barbarorum team on this matter. It's always neat to get a peek into the behind the scenes work of any given project, especially one as interesting as this. :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
Artificer
Hmm..
No one’s forcing you to read this Cron. If you have cooking to do, by all means go do it. Wouldn’t want to be responsible for you starving to death in addition to that already incurred ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cronos Impera
Ta. I have never been a glory seeker. You won’t ever see me posting my work to gain awards or titles, to promote myself. I have always put the mod (EB) first. My satisfaction was knowing that all you guys would enjoy a game that is not only professional looking, ground breaking in gameplay and fun but is as historically accurate as humanly possible - Satisfaction that I contributed to these ends. Hence 70% + of my work in EB does not even bare my mark /name nor any credit given to me. Data, Models and Skins completely reworked / made anew bear the names of others due to me wishing to honour their contribution and my desire to remain sensitive to their feelings. I had always thought of the collective good of the team and mod as a whole. If things needed changing, updating, re-doing, etc, individuals were always consulted and permission gained.Quote:
Originally Posted by Domitius Ulpianus
Same as always, because I careQuote:
Originally Posted by Domitius Ulpianus
That’s a bit rich.. Have you invested three years and several hundred, if not thousands of hours in this project? And if I wanted my own mod, don’t you think I would have done so by now eg. Promethius. I stayed with EB because of a personal commitment to the objectives / upcomes of the project and community as a whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Domitius Ulpianus
The parting is only recent and for the record, the guys still ‘in the mod’ are no more ‘EB’ than those that are no longer very active (Khelvan, Aymar, Ranika, etc etc) or like myself, left. EB is not an exclusive men’s club. EB is a community collective that has collaborated to make one of the community’s most kick ass mod. It is a team effort and I (like others) will (with or without current membership) always be regarded a contributor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Domitius Ulpianus
lol ...Like I need to defend my actions to you ~:flirt:Quote:
Originally Posted by Domitius Ulpianus
However, for the benefit of those that need this publically re-enforced…
I would have preferred this to be handled within EB but the powers that be would not allow it. I have endure years of being derided, belittled and undermined by those that should have been mature enough to known better, but I did so willingly. I did so for EB and ultimately for the community. Unfortunately things had recently taken a turn for the worse and I was no longer able to endure it any longer. Many many hours of work have been flushed down the toilet, old friends turned into demagogues, etc etc ad naseum. I have tried to raise these concerns internally but have been ignored or (more recently) deleted outright… giving me no right of reply. ..Until now …despite the odd deletion.
Think what you may. I have never concerned myself with popularity contests. I call a spade a spade and if that’s not PC enough for some sensitve souls, tough titties! ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Domitius Ulpianus
But how can you stand in judgement of the outcomes of those emotions if you are ignorant of the causes / context?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaatu
To spell this out for you, imagine a case where an individual (A) has acquired a black eye from another individual (B). Now by your rationale, if ‘B’ (‘the belligerent aggressor’), tries to publicly explain the situation / motives, they are dismissed as an overly emotional conspiracy theorist… a crazy.
However if you add context; that B caught A raping B’s own six year old daughter, the matter seems to make a little more sense and B no longer appears quite as crazy , overly emotional.
I think you’ve probably thrown enough for the time being.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaatu
Maybe next time, before jumping to conclusions and casting dispersions whilst “not knowing the facts”, you could stop and reflect for a moment. It's All I ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaatu
Sorry to disappoint you but I don’t.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaatu
Thank you. Me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaatu
Yes but you’ve missed the point Dave. Contrary to what you keep inferring, ie. the ‘experts’ / historians are all happy with it as if this depiction was of their choosing, it wasn’t the case. The ‘experts’ were dragged kicking and screaming to make compromises because the unwashed, uneducated ‘barbarian’ plebs said “hang on, that’s just bullshit”. Its sad but people had to resign before some could concede (though never overtly) they were wrong / had exaggerated the “reasonable-ness” of the depiction. The point, the so-called ‘experts’ aren’t infallible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
Again you’ve still missed the point. It’s not the unit, nor each issue in isolation. It’s the attitudes and processes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
Don’t make me laugh.You only defer to the ‘democractic’ process / “vote” out of positional expediency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
As evidenced in this very thread. If it’s anything to do with the Hellenes, you’ll go on and on about the qualifications / knowledge / supremacy of the Hellene FC / ‘experts’. If it has nothing to do with them, to hell with what the other FC / ‘experts’ think… bring on the “vote”, knowing full well that these other FC / ‘experts’ are in the minority.
~:) Oh they can try, they just need to be prepared for the response :tomato2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
A shame you obviously didn’t appreciate my work / ideas / opinions enough when I still wished to actively contribute. And that’s only part of it :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
Matee ..for the nth time NO!! It’s got nothing to do with the Celts, Germans or Callithumpians for that matter. But rather the attitudes and actions of my colleagues and ‘friends’.Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
Crusade? Rather condescending and inflammatory don’t you think there Matt, considering the local environ and the fact you admit you don’t understand the context?Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
So again others can raise concerns about EB but not I? Doesn’t normally surprise me but from you?
Ah.. still hope for EB :applause:Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
Cheers mate. Ok fair enough, I’ll try and catch up with you sometime this weekendQuote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
my2bob
But there is no point for you being emotional about this. Again, what I'm trying to say is the better you control your feelings the better chances you'll have getting your message across. This is a public forum, so the facts are accessable only to a minority of the readers.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSYCHO V
You have seriously misinterpreted what I have said. Please, if you would just go through any of my posts you would see that they contain no personal attacks or insults. All I have accused you for is that you are a human being.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSYCHO V
This thread should be closed in my opinion. Psycho has had a chance to respond, and there is no point to continuing this discussion in public.Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
I know watching it gives me the same kind of uncomfortable, embarassed feeling as listening to couples sorting out their differences in public.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
exactly
Indeed it is apparent to me now that no amount of explaining about this one unit or how it got to look how it looks now or even how almost (but not quite) everyone on the team agrees with it (especially the Hellenic FC's and historians) will satisfy the complaints coming from him. I really can't understand what I posted in post 75 above about the unit can be dissected and disagreed with like it was. This one stinking unit was too fancy, we all argued over it, it got fixed and most all of us are happy with it, but he isn't still. That seriously was like a year ago too. There's nothing else to say that I can think of now and I'm positive nothing I can say will matter to him.
I've not said anything anywhere near as bad to you Psycho as you are making me out to be, but you make me out to be some kind of... whatever man - you'll just rip that apart too. I'm out of this thread; there's plenty more stuff that will actually help the mod that needs doing.
Sadly thats right,Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
one reason why some of us (Stefan, Uwe and me) lost the will, patience and fortitude to work further on the germanic faction.
Nobody could ever say, that Psycho's input was not important, but i think his knowledge about celts sometimes "shadows" any neutral view on other cultures.
BUT - i still disagree with many of Psycho's decissions, nonetheless i try to help Jasper, the new germanic faction coordinator with my knowledge as i fell in love with the idea of EB a few years ago:embarassed:
Conclusion - let's get over it and enjoy the wonderful work the team has done - some of us will never agree in all aspects of the mod, but let's be honest: Without the mod we would still have to play with screeching women and a ahistorical egypt. At least we all could agree here:-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
The analogy is just perfect. Specially because one side is raising the voice and putting a good show....just to get attention...I had a girlfriend once that loved to do these "scenes" in public... I always ignored her during those episodes...because for me that's blackmailing....but of course that is just me and my ex....
BTW, about this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domitius Ulpianus
"Understand that by doing this you are not lessening them but yourself. Please don't degrade yourself."
Originally Posted by Psycho
"Think what you may. I have never concerned myself with popularity contests. I call a spade a spade and if that’s not PC enough for some sensitve souls, tough titties!"
Obviously you missed the point Psycho, I was talking about integrity, not popularity....but I do understand it is hard for some to recognize the difference.
Peace.
It seems like the argument isn't about this specific unit as much as it is about the process used to make it.
Psycho claims that this unit is an example of how the EB system can be abused or bullied into neglecting history, and he complains that he feels that the team is not as democratic or fair as it should be. There's no reason to bite his head off. How many people are there that feel like that? It may be that Psycho is in a minority and feels ripped off because he was treated unfairly, or he thought he was.
Therefore, the best way (it seems) to resolve the issue would be for a much more open exchange. Psycho might want to put a few suggestions up (not necessarily here, but somewhere) to help fix what he percieves as a problem with EB. Arguing about whether injuries were dealt or whether X is Y or Y is X is often fruitless. Psycho and several team members are at an impasse; let them discuss what they should do, rather than what they did.
There is no reason to assume Psycho is wrong, nor is there reason to assume he's right. So why not offer some suggestions- how do you think the EB team could deal with its problems? If you have some suggestions, and express them in a moderately civil way- I'm sure they would be considered. But if you elaborate only on a problem and never a solution, you tend to hurt feelings and start conflict.
...just some advice from an observer.
Oh it is very clear to me that his post was never really about the unit....and frankly I don't think it is about the "undemocratic" ways of EB team.
When you start an argument by turning on the fan and bringing a ton of crap you don't have a rational point to make...
Again, just my :2cents: ,me too, I'm just an observer.
BTW, I am publicly stating my views and opinions on this thread that really doesn't concern me directly, because someone else decided to make this discussion public.
Oh, one last thing I am sorry for implying that Psycho choosed a good user name, that was clearly innapropiate, but at the time I didn't think all the discussion was for real and that this was just another random/WTF kind of post. My bad.
the interactions between man and man are confusing and futile. close the thread, its just going off a rabbit trail that this pscyho has hijacked.....
So, uh . ..I'm a rather new EB convert (played RTR up to about a week ago), and I'd just like to say that me reading this soap opera of a thread starting from talking about KH to bitter dispute over the spartan unit was the most entertaining 40 minutes of my spring break.
I know I'm no expert of this time period compared to many on this forum (First Crusade is my specialty, actually), but I'd just like to say that the Spartans, and indeed many more units in EB, seem much more realistic than in any other mod I've tried (3 hp RTR spartans . ..bah). Maybe there is still a good amount of work to be done to perfect the Spartans, and this mod in general, but it is the best I've seen so far, and I really appreciate the work you guys have put into it.