Estonia's Decision to Remove Soviet WWII Monument Sparks Protest

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Sooooooooo...apart from fighting against a racist genocidal regime..what has the USSR ever done for anyone ?

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Must you constantly trash the US ? :laugh4:

The point is they were fighting a regime that was no better if not worse.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Sooooooooo...apart from fighting against a racist genocidal regime..what has the USSR ever done for anyone ?

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It was one too ??:juggle2:

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Fenring

And as bad as the DDR was for the east-Germans, a prolonged Nazi occupation would have been a lot worse for Russia or indeed any Slavic country.

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Actually considering the death toll


estimates for Poland

- human cost of Soviet occupation September-October 1939 - June 1941 between 500 000 and 1 500 000 citizens (about 200 000 Jews).

It doesn't most likely include non-Poles from that ethnically mixed part of Poland. In addition the area had lower population than territories occupied by Germany to 1941.

- human cost of German occupation 1939 -1945 - 6 000 000.

Between 1939 and 1941 both states happily concluded the same action - the elimination of the national elite ( action AB by Germans and Katyn crime by Soviets) coordinated during the meetings between Gestapo and NKVD in Zakopane.

At that time Hitler and Stalin shared the idea of Polish-free Europe and proceeded accordingly.

Of course after one shark bitten another in 1941 it had to change.



So here we are Hitler vs. Stalin - pick your choice because noone will help you, it is no fairy tale, no white knights in shining armour coming to the rescue and the good guys will lose anyway in the end.


Have a nice time.:shame:



If you want to vote - here you can

http://www.eesti.portal.ee/index.php?lkET=193&lkET=1

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I doubt the people there would agree with you.

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That has to be the ultimate Gawains worldian answer:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
So Gawin , you put forward a question , you got an answer that is factualy correct , but you don't like the fact so in comes....Gawains world Gawains world:thrasher: :thrasher: :thrasher: :thrasher:
It is getting to be a bit of a pattern isn't it , you make a definate statement , the statement falls apart but you try and stick with it .
BTW any further thoughts on your statements about Irish or Scottish monuments ...or French ones:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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It was one too ??

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OK maybe you are unfamiliar with Python....So....
In what way ?
apply it to what you quoted , not what you bolded .
There is a case of sorts to be made there , can you make it ?

Tribesy, I'm trying to understand, are you trying to say that the Soviets' regime was ok, or better than I'm-not-sure-what ?

Tribesman


'Life of Brian''s 'what the bloody Romans did for us' sketch is completelly not in place unless you assume that Nazi Germany's motorways and health care are also worth such great esteem. Or perhaps Pol Pot', Mao, Kim Ir Sen and other brave social engineers too ?:idea2:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Oh well . I had a lengthy respose written out , but between visitors and hoards of kids it has gone ...so ..
Gawain.......:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: oh stop .....:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Duke......examine the situation , think , then reply .:yes: Its a complicated situation but easily accesible , to say the least , with the last part of your post you are ...wrong ....completely wrong.

oh .....might as well add the plug even though the post is lost ......one of my neighbours next book is going to be....war memorials of Ireland....by Willie (thats an orange name~;) ) Henry .

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I could well be wrong because I am not Irish. However I did actually look for information so it is not that accessible. Found this interesting website:

http://www.irishwarmemorials.ie/

and looked at a few but saw no reference to English dead. I am afraid until you tell me where these memorials are I am going to continue to believe there are none.* If there is one to Black and Tans I am going to eat my keyboard. Won't be buying your friend's book - doesn't sound that interesting.

(As an aside Tribesy your posting style does invite ad hominem replies but I will try really hard not to. I will limit myself to the sarcastic comment that investigation, reflection and thought are really useful ideas and I will try to use them in future. I will also avoid the temptation to reply in a superior way because that could annoy others)

*following further examination and thought this is still my position. I have examined Irish attitudes to British armed forces Irish views on their own dead who fought in WW1 which is ambivalent to say the least. I cannot believe community in the Irish republic has chosen to honour English dead in any war.

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Originally Posted by Gawain

To me this is like partaising Saddam for keeping Iran in check. The Russians were as bad if not worse than the Germans. They fought a war of occupation and called it a war of liberation. They didnt liberate anyone . In fact quite the opposite. I really dont think they deserve any praise other than for being brave men who went to their deaths for a bad cause. They were duped.

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Not the same at all. Remembering one thing is not the same as forgetting everything else. Neither is remembering a contribution to a war you won by one of your allies the same as giving approval to their actions before, during or since that conflict. The USSR did occupy Estonia. It was a Totalitarian regime. Morally there is not much to choose between the Nazis and the Soviets, but on a practical sense as far as Britain was concerned, Nazi Germany was a much bigger threat. If as a Britain or an American you feel a sense of pride in your nation's contribution to defeating the Nazis, you need to remember which nation did the most fighting, had the most war dead and really broke Germany's military might. In the interests of truth, not in the interests of doling out praise.

Was the average East German better off under Hitler or the Stasi? I would rather be a victim of oppression than share in collective responsibility for its application.

As far as im concerned Estonia is an independent country and they can choose what monuments they can preserve and what not. To me this is just another political trick from Kreml to mess with another former Soviet Republic,by using the Russian minority in order to interfere with internal affairs of a souvereign nation.:wall:

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

More people were "exterminated" by Stalin than Hitler. Maybe you should study your history a little. Stalin was a paraniod freak. If he even though you oppossed him it was your end. Thats why they hated eachother so much. Its the extreme left meeting the extreme right and finding that in the end extremism leads both sides to the same place.

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No. Estimates of 50+ millions are proven to be false. Maybe you should realize that historins and researchers who made those claims didn't really have access to soviet archives so they weren't much more than guesses. Unsealed soviet archives show a different picture.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

I doubt the people there would agree with you.

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Take a good look at my location, take a deep breath and think again...

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Take a good look at my location, take a deep breath and think again...

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Then your opinion is completely meaningless because you are clearly a mindless nationalist. :wink:

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Take a good look at my location, take a deep breath and think again...

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So you long to be returned to the loving arms of mother russia then ?

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

No. Estimates of 50+ millions are proven to be false. Maybe you should realize that historins and researchers who made those claims didn't really have access to soviet archives so they weren't much more than guesses. Unsealed soviet archives show a different picture.

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So are you attempting to claim that the Soviet Union did not kill the numerous millions that many historians have documented. I agree 50 million plus is probably an incorrect number, however many researchers have been able to account for at least 10 million deaths directly associated with Stalin's regime. Remember he was responsible for forcing some collectives into being that resulted in the deaths of millions from famine, then there were the forced labor camps, purges, and other political killings done by the secert police.

If Estonia wants to remove a foreign monument from their nation that is within the scope of that nation. All I would expect is that Estonia offer to transport the monument to the Russian Republic for thier historical safekeeping.

Once I rule the world, I will have my monuments built with an explosive core and a fuse so that they can be destroyed easier if my son cannot come up to my standards and people dislike him.:2thumbsup:

Concerning the Hitler vs Stalin debate, it's quite nice that Stalin killed a few million Russians, but Hitler planned to kill ALL Russians. He never got that far as we all know, but I don't think Stalin had plans to exterminate the slavic culture/race because that kind of included himself I guess.
Hitler also wanted to rename Berlin to Germania once it had been capital of the world. So clearly he was out to kill a lot more.
Stalin killed mostly for political reasons, he wanted opponents to be gone, so anyone who bowed was fine. Hitler wanted ethnic cleansing, he wanted the planet to be occupied by aarians only.

Maybe they both killed about the same number of people in the end, but their plans were a bit different.
The Russians who fought all the way to Berlin defended their country in the sense that defeating Hitler was the only way to end the war.
If you say they fought for an evil regime, you assume they should have not followed their orders if that was against their own will, however if an American soldier refuses to go to Iraq because he does not support the war, he is somehow at fault because he does not follow his orders?:dizzy2:
Double standard?
I'm not saying all russian soldiers were just good dudes who fought for mother russia, raping girls certainly has nothing to do with that, but dismissing them all as evil grunts of an evil regime doesn't seem right to me either.
Rommel and some other german officers were no Nazis either, yet they mostly did their job(invading Africa etc.).

Sarmatian - sorry but looks like you have (common for Serbs) pro-Russian point of view. I have no doubts that you would change your mind if Serbia was Russia's neighbour (of course in condition that Serbia wouldn't have been anexed and call "Serbian Federal Republic" :) )

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

Then your opinion is completely meaningless because you are clearly a mindless nationalist. :wink:

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This is the best argument you can find?

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

So you long to be returned to the loving arms of mother russia then ?

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Well, to "return" somewhere implies that you have already "been" there. Since me, and my country of course, have never been in the loving arms of mother russia in any way, shape or form it would be difficult, if not outright impossible to return there. So, you asked someone to name one country which ussr liberated. I named one. They've driven out the nazis and left. For that I am thankful. Because, believe me, we where running out of places to build monuments for all the people killed by the nazis...

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Originally Posted by Redleg

So are you attempting to claim that the Soviet Union did not kill the numerous millions that many historians have documented. I agree 50 million plus is probably an incorrect number, however many researchers have been able to account for at least 10 million deaths directly associated with Stalin's regime. Remember he was responsible for forcing some collectives into being that resulted in the deaths of millions from famine, then there were the forced labor camps, purges, and other political killings done by the secert police.

If Estonia wants to remove a foreign monument from their nation that is within the scope of that nation. All I would expect is that Estonia offer to transport the monument to the Russian Republic for thier historical safekeeping.

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I've been involved in several discussion on the number of killed people in this forum. And yet I've never seen someone who knows enough about it to break down those numbers. Just how many people died in the concentration camps, how many of them were prisoners of war, how many died during deportations and so on. But that doesn't stop people from writing about 50+ millions dead, like they are talking about bank accounts. Those were claims from the cold war, and are very biased. And plus, just how much access had a western reseracher had to soviet union during the cold war? Data from soviet archives just don't support those kind of numbers.

Famine wasn't an organized killing of people. It was a policy supposed to provide more food. It failed miserably in that regard, but that is another point. But again, number of deaths appear to be exagerated. If there had been 5 to 12 million death as has been estimated, there should have been a large drop in ussr population at that time, while it was the exact opposite, there was a rise in population at that time (I could be mistaken on this, I tried to check couldn't find ussr censuses on the net).

To get back on topic. Estonia is an independant country and that means it is within it's rights to remove the monument. But also, 1/4 of it's population are russians. I am assuming most of them are citizens of estonia. In a democratic country, minorities are taken into account when decisions are made. I just don't get why the monument is such big a deal. There is a huge monument dedicated to soviet soldiers in Vienna. No one over there is trying to remove it. There is a boulevard of some american president in Belgrade. No one tried to change it's name because america bombed serbia in 1999. In my opinion, this just looks like another nationalistic stupidity with no gain whatsoever for either russia or estonia. It just means that there will be a deterioration in relationship between estonia and russia.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

This is the best argument you can find?

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...Argument? Argument against what? No one here said anything about arguing...:sweatdrop:

I was just using a little in-joke poking fun at the culmination of multiple exchanges that occurred last year, back when I thought my word or opinion on the subject meant anything here. ~:wacko:

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

...Argument? Argument against what? No one here said anything about arguing...:sweatdrop:

I was just using a little in-joke poking fun at the culmination of multiple exchanges that occurred last year, back when I thought my word or opinion on the subject meant anything here. ~:wacko:

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Sorry, I must have been out that week. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I've been involved in several discussion on the number of killed people in this forum. And yet I've never seen someone who knows enough about it to break down those numbers. Just how many people died in the concentration camps, how many of them were prisoners of war, how many died during deportations and so on. But that doesn't stop people from writing about 50+ millions dead, like they are talking about bank accounts. Those were claims from the cold war, and are very biased. And plus, just how much access had a western reseracher had to soviet union during the cold war? Data from soviet archives just don't support those kind of numbers.

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Oh I have been more then involved in discussions on this subject alone. I don't buy the 50+ million arguement myself - its my belief that its too high. But I don't buy your attempt at dismissing it either.

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Famine wasn't an organized killing of people. It was a policy supposed to provide more food. It failed miserably in that regard, but that is another point. But again, number of deaths appear to be exagerated. If there had been 5 to 12 million death as has been estimated, there should have been a large drop in ussr population at that time, while it was the exact opposite, there was a rise in population at that time (I could be mistaken on this, I tried to check couldn't find ussr censuses on the net).

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Your mistaken. The famine was more then just a failure in policy.

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Originally Posted by an historical reference

]Rather than rectify those problems, the Bolsheviks exacerbated the problem by ordering the seizing of grain from peasants. This soon gave way to dekulakizaton -- the liquidating of "rich" peasants -- and collectivization of agriculture. Combined with agricultural quotas that left peasants with almost nothing to eat, the results were predictably tragic. So predictable in fact that historians such as Robert Conquest believe Stalin intentionally inflicted the 1932-3 famine as part of a general assault on the Ukraine.

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Just in case your unware of who Robert Conquest is type in a google search of the man, he is one of the more acknowledge writers concerning this time period. One can question his motives but one should be very careful of questioning the research the man used, given that a lot was based upon accessing records in the old Soviet Union.

So while the data available is actually limited, much do to the desire of the old soviet union to keep things secert. Some data is coming out of the old kremlin to allow historians to attempt to gain an understanding of what happen during the purges and policies carried out under Stalin. While I do agree with you the numbers spouted by many of over 50 million are based upon proganda and lies from the 1930's from both the Germans and even the anti-communists of the time. The Cold War futher inflated the numbers. But it seems to me that your attempting to defend the policies of a mass murder that was Stalin. No matter how you attempt to slice it, Stalin was responsible for the purging of the Soviet Military, the deaths by famine of many people in the Soviet Union, the political prisons and gulugs where many died under the miresble conditions of forced labor.

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To get back on topic. Estonia is an independant country and that means it is within it's rights to remove the monument. But also, 1/4 of it's population are russians. I am assuming most of them are citizens of estonia. In a democratic country, minorities are taken into account when decisions are made. I just don't get why the monument is such big a deal. There is a huge monument dedicated to soviet soldiers in Vienna. No one over there is trying to remove it. There is a boulevard of some american president in Belgrade. No one tried to change it's name because america bombed serbia in 1999. In my opinion, this just looks like another nationalistic stupidity with no gain whatsoever for either russia or estonia. It just means that there will be a deterioration in relationship between estonia and russia.

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Its probably the tactic that both countries are wanting to happen.

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Well, to "return" somewhere implies that you have already "been" there. Since me, and my country of course, have never been in the loving arms of mother russia in any way, shape or form it would be difficult, if not outright impossible to return there. So, you asked someone to name one country which ussr liberated. I named one. They've driven out the nazis and left. For that I am thankful. Because, believe me, we where running out of places to build monuments for all the people killed by the nazis...

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Isnt that because were talking of Yugoslavia here. The other big communist nation. Yeah they were very free after WW2 under Tito. Thats why they didnt stay there. There already was a communist regime in power. So now we have a third bad guy enter the lists.

The point however is that the Russian leaders did not fight only to defend their nation. They started the aggression as much as the Germans did. I willl never see either of these as the good guys no matter how hard you try to portray them as one. Both murdered millions in cold blood plus they are responsible for untold war dead and injured. We are all better off with neither of them ,nor their types of governments in power.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Sooooooooo...apart from fighting against a racist genocidal regime..what has the USSR ever done for anyone ?

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Wah? I must have missed your sarcasm. I wouldnt have expected that from you!

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Originally Posted by Husar

He never got that far as we all know, but I don't think Stalin had plans to exterminate the slavic culture/race because that kind of included himself I guess.

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And what the hell is slavic culture ? Nice thinking, but liquidation of elites and subdual of the rest turning them into mindless serfs was in general the target both were aiming to...
As I said before it was COORDINATED between Gestapo and NKVD on meetings kept even in 1941.

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Hitler also wanted to rename Berlin to Germania once it had been capital of the world. So clearly he was out to kill a lot more.

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So was Stalin. The number of soviet republic was infinite and the SU has the globe in its coat of arms.

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Stalin killed mostly for political reasons, he wanted opponents to be gone, so anyone who bowed was fine. Hitler wanted ethnic cleansing, he wanted the planet to be occupied by aarians only.

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Ehem - the opponents' list included for example Polish stamp collectors - because they had 'international contacts' and members of illegal organisations (illegal in Soviet Union) which equalled ALL non-Soviet organisations such as boy scouts, student organisations etc. Not to mention political parties, trade unions, priests of all religions etc.
Pretty long list in my opinion...

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Maybe they both killed about the same number of people in the end, but their plans were a bit different.

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Except they all wanted to 'unite' the world under one banner with liquidation of 'undesired'.

Thanks but a choice between Black Death and Scarlet Fever is no choice at all.:wall:



Sarmatian

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Famine wasn't an organized killing of people. It was a policy supposed to provide more food. It failed miserably in that regard, but that is another point. But again, number of deaths appear to be exagerated. If there had been 5 to 12 million death as has been estimated, there should have been a large drop in ussr population at that time, while it was the exact opposite, there was a rise in population at that time (I could be mistaken on this, I tried to check couldn't find ussr censuses on the net).

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If it means that military protected convoys take the food from the farmers leaving them with nothing except grass, frogs and ... their own children (cannibalism did happen) and blocking all exits it IS not only organised killing, but genocide.

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To get back on topic. Estonia is an independant country and that means it is within it's rights to remove the monument. But also, 1/4 of it's population are russians. I am assuming most of them are citizens of estonia. In a democratic country, minorities are taken into account when decisions are made. I just don't get why the monument is such big a deal. There is a huge monument dedicated to soviet soldiers in Vienna. No one over there is trying to remove it. There is a boulevard of some american president in Belgrade. No one tried to change it's name because america bombed serbia in 1999. In my opinion, this just looks like another nationalistic stupidity with no gain whatsoever for either russia or estonia. It just means that there will be a deterioration in relationship between estonia and russia.

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Well... If someone erects a statue in the middle of your capital which becomes a SYMBOL of the occupation it is important to remove.

It is more tricky here with soldiers' ashes and so on, but the thing is the monument is RELOCATED to a military graveyard - is it not the right place for the dead to rest ?

An example from our history before 1918 Russian Empire erected over 100 orthodox churches in Warsaw despite the fact that virtually all orthodox ( Poland was multiconfessional country for long centuries, but policy of russyfication created divisions which in some regions equalled orthodox religion with Russian nationality, loyal;ty towards tzar - even open betrayal) people in Warsaw at that time were Russian soldiers, clerks and colonists.
One of those was a monstrously monumental cathedral-like building (don't remember its name though) which became a clear mark that Warsaw is once and for all Russian city.
They all left in 1915 with the retreating Russian army so when Poland re-gained independence after 123 years of occupation it was perfectly understandable to remove the churches converting them with removal of the works of art and liturgical items to orthodox churches elsewhere. Some of them were demolished ( not blown up, but removed with care) including the one in the very center of the city.

Was it an act of barbarism or nationalistic crap ? Or perhaps ERECTING such structure was ?



EDIT - I have found the image of the church in Warsaw - Alexander Nevsky Cathedral, Warsaw

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Originally Posted by Kagemusha

As far as im concerned Estonia is an independent country and they can choose what monuments they can preserve and what not. To me this is just another political trick from Kreml to mess with another former Soviet Republic,by using the Russian minority in order to interfere with internal affairs of a souvereign nation.:wall:

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I think that the Russian upsetness might be more than simply Kreml showing it's muscles, but also an attack on the Russian self-image.

As the official Russian history has gone back into forgetting the first years of aggression and only focusing on "The great freedom war", being reminded that it's a big fat lie can be somewhat annoying.

As for Estonia, having a monument over the occupiers of thier country feels a bit wrong. But the separation between the Russian minority and the rest of the Estonian people needs to be handled somehow. It's certainly not good for the country.
And as you mentioned it does leave a backdoor open for Kreml, who seems to be using thier own version of the Monroe Doctrine for the former Soviet.

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

back when I thought my word or opinion on the subject meant anything here. ~:wacko:

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I'm interested in your input.

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Originally Posted by cegorach

And what the hell is slavic culture ? Nice thinking, but liquidation of elites and subdual of the rest turning them into mindless serfs was in general the target both were aiming to...
As I said before it was COORDINATED between Gestapo and NKVD on meetings kept even in 1941.

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I'm sorry, but unlike my grandfathers(or maybe just like them), I have no idea about races and culture, I just didn't want to put race alone since that might then sound racist, especially if it's wrong etc.

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Originally Posted by cegorach

Ehem - the opponents' list included for example Polish stamp collectors - because they had 'international contacts' and members of illegal organisations (illegal in Soviet Union) which equalled ALL non-Soviet organisations such as boy scouts, student organisations etc. Not to mention political parties, trade unions, priests of all religions etc.
Pretty long list in my opinion...

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I can learn something in every discussion. Didn't know that actually, we don't learn a lot about Stalin here.

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Originally Posted by cegorach

Except they all wanted to 'unite' the world under one banner with liquidation of 'undesired'.

Thanks but a choice between Black Death and Scarlet Fever is no choice at all.

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I knew about about Russian interests in the balkan etc, but that they wanted to conquer the world is new to me as well. Makes me wonder whether Stalin had plans as big as Hitler, or whether he just decided ad hoc what to do next all the time.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Oh I have been more then involved in discussions on this subject alone. I don't buy the 50+ million arguement myself - its my belief that its too high. But I don't buy your attempt at dismissing it either.

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I'm not dismissing it, I'm just questioning how high it was.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Your mistaken. The famine was more then just a failure in policy.

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It was something inherently evil among Stalin regime that they decided to kill millions of people even though no one benefited from it? I don't buy it. Stalin was ruthless but to people who were in the way of his power.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

So while the data available is actually limited, much do to the desire of the old soviet union to keep things secert. Some data is coming out of the old kremlin to allow historians to attempt to gain an understanding of what happen during the purges and policies carried out under Stalin. While I do agree with you the numbers spouted by many of over 50 million are based upon proganda and lies from the 1930's from both the Germans and even the anti-communists of the time. The Cold War futher inflated the numbers. But it seems to me that your attempting to defend the policies of a mass murder that was Stalin. No matter how you attempt to slice it, Stalin was responsible for the purging of the Soviet Military, the deaths by famine of many people in the Soviet Union, the political prisons and gulugs where many died under the miresble conditions of forced labor.

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I have not challenged that. I just pointed out that 99% were nothing more than guesses, more often than not biased and created to be used in propaganda.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Its probably the tactic that both countries are wanting to happen.

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Could be, but than it's sad...

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Isnt that because were talking of Yugoslavia here. The other big communist nation. Yeah they were very free after WW2 under Tito. Thats why they didnt stay there. There already was a communist regime in power. So now we have a third bad guy enter the lists.

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First of all, yugoslavia wasn't big, communist nation. Communist party was formed during ww2 but let's not go OT. Yugoslavia was free under communist just about as much as before them. But during communism Yugoslavia was turned from a backward agricultural country to industrial nation whose GDP per capita was bigger than a lot of western european countries. New universities were build, hospitals, schools, museums etc... But no one wants to give credit to them because it's "sooo out" praising communist these days, even if they deserve it. When people have a high standard of living, excellent education system, excellent health care (and all of it free or almost free), when they are free to travel where they want they tend not to give a damn about who is in power.

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Originally Posted by cegorach

Well... If someone erects a statue in the middle of your capital which becomes a SYMBOL of the occupation it is important to remove.

It is more tricky here with soldiers' ashes and so on, but the thing is the monument is RELOCATED to a military graveyard - is it not the right place for the dead to rest ?

An example from our history before 1918 Russian Empire erected over 100 orthodox churches in Warsaw despite the fact that virtually all orthodox ( Poland was multiconfessional country for long centuries, but policy of russyfication created divisions which in some regions equalled orthodox religion with Russian nationality, loyal;ty towards tzar - even open betrayal) people in Warsaw at that time were Russian soldiers, clerks and colonists.
One of those was a monstrously monumental cathedral-like building (don't remember its name though) which became a clear mark that Warsaw is once and for all Russian city.
They all left in 1915 with the retreating Russian army so when Poland re-gained independence after 123 years of occupation it was perfectly understandable to remove the churches converting them with removal of the works of art and liturgical items to orthodox churches elsewhere. Some of them were demolished ( not blown up, but removed with care) including the one in the very center of the city.

Was it an act of barbarism or nationalistic crap ? Or perhaps ERECTING such structure was ?

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Well, Cegorach, I am sorry that you think that way. Do you know how many mosques are in serbia? Hundreds. And there weren't a single muslim before ottoman occupation. So basically your saying that it would be not only justifiable but also good if we would tear down (or remove with care) each and every one because we were under ottoman yoke for several centuries???

What would be the point of that? Just what is there to gain with such a move?

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I could well be wrong because I am not Irish. However I did actually look for information so it is not that accessible. Found this interesting website:

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Damn I could have sworn there was a big statue at the top of the town square , some English bloke who was shot by the Irish . It was there yesterday , but perhaps they moved it overnight .~;)
Though they did remove the Crimea memorials from the square during the recent refurbishment ....they moved them to the front of City Hall .

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If there is one to Black and Tans I am going to eat my keyboard.

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Would you like some sauce with that keyboard ?
It just so happens that while there is a monument on the Long Walk to someone killed by the tans , and another one just across the river for a priest they killed , there is also a monument in town to an American Nazi who was involved with the kidap and murder of the priest .
Strange world isn't it .:yes:

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I'm not dismissing it, I'm just questioning how high it was.



It was something inherently evil among Stalin regime that they decided to kill millions of people even though no one benefited from it? I don't buy it. Stalin was ruthless but to people who were in the way of his power.



I have not challenged that. I just pointed out that 99% were nothing more than guesses, more often than not biased and created to be used in propaganda.

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Actually the number of historians using pure guesswork is much less then that. Many of the current researchers into the history of the Soviet Union and particlurily Stalin are accessing the official records and are using statistical analysis to develop what is a predictable number. Yes there is some baised inherient in the research, but even credible studies done by many Russians, indicate a significantly high number of deaths contributed to Stalin's policies and orders.

Then again I wonder if you realize that the sentences in the your second and third paragraph contradict each other in a very basic way, ruthless killing of millions was considered evil, was not Hilter condemned for the same ruthless killing of millions.

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About one million people were shot during the periods 1935-38, 1942 and 1945-50 and millions of people were transported to Gulag labour camps. In Georgia about 80,000 people were shot during 1921, 1923-24, 1935-38, 1942 and 1945-50, and more than 100,000 people were transported to Gulag camps.

On March 5, 1940, Stalin himself and other Soviet leaders signed the order to execute 25,700 Polish intelligentsia including 14,700 Polish POWs. It became known as Katyn massacre. Some other infamous massacres: massacre of prisoners 30,000-40,000 people.

It is generally agreed by historians that if famines, prison and labour camp mortality, and state terrorism (deportations and political purges) are taken into account, Stalin and his colleagues were directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of millions. How many millions died under Stalin is greatly disputed. Although no official figures have been released by the Soviet or Russian governments, most estimates put the figure between 8 and 20 million. Comparison of the 1926-39 census results suggests 5-10 million deaths in excess of what would be normal in the period, mostly through famine in 1931-34. The 1926 census shows the population of the Soviet Union at 147 million while the 1939 census at 162 million. (Another census from 1937 is known as the "wrecker's census"; its figures were suppressed.) The highest death estimates are 50 million from the 1920s to 1950s, but they are probably greatly exaggerated.

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Now when one looks at the population growth rate of the Soviet Union during that time period compared to the rest of the world - one can develop an estimate based upon that data.

http://www.ditext.com/conquest/16.html

Even if we accept some of the higher (but still defendable) death estimates of Stalins regime, it still stands that he ruled from 1922 - 1953.
Hitler only ruled 12 years over a country smaller than Stalin's, yet did exeedingly well for a "runner up", and he had plans for a lot more. We need only look at what the SS Einsatztruppen did with captured Russian territories (appr. 20 million dead Russian peasants) to know exactly what they'd have done to the population at large if the SU had gone down as planned in Barbarossa.

The USSR was bad, but there's no doubt in my mind that Nazi Germany was worse.

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Originally Posted by Fenring

The USSR was bad, but there's no doubt in my mind that Nazi Germany was worse.

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Yes indeed Nazi Germany intended to destroy whole groups of people.

But one should never discount the terrible things that other tyrannts have done in attempting to defend a decision over a war monument.

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If there is one to Black and Tans I am going to eat my keyboard.

Would you like some sauce with that keyboard ?
It just so happens that while there is a monument on the Long Walk to someone killed by the tans , and another one just across the river for a priest they killed

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Well in Gawains world we would call these monuments to those who the Black & Tans killed not to the Black & Tans . :dizzy2:

As said here, the monument will be relocated elsewhere, and not simply removed. AFAIK, things got hot mainly because both country have quite opposite agendas. Putin and his whole "they're all against us" paranoia is surely an issue here, just as the way former communist countries try to piss off russia as often as possible now that they are members of the EU and NATO.

As for the whole "USSR was worse than Nazi Germany" thingy, I thought this has been debated one billion of time either here or in the Monastery. Isn't it about time we settle this finally ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Damn I could have sworn there was a big statue at the top of the town square , some English bloke who was shot by the Irish . It was there yesterday , but perhaps they moved it overnight .~;)
Though they did remove the Crimea memorials from the square during the recent refurbishment ....they moved them to the front of City Hall .


Would you like some sauce with that keyboard ?
It just so happens that while there is a monument on the Long Walk to someone killed by the tans , and another one just across the river for a priest they killed , there is also a monument in town to an American Nazi who was involved with the kidap and murder of the priest .
Strange world isn't it .:yes:

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Congratulations for knowing more about your home town than I do. Now if you just tell me where it is I will know who the bloke is and where his memorial is and I can stop persisting in my stubborn refusal to believe that the Irish commemorate English war dead. (There is no reason why they should and plenty why they might not like to.) No keyboard consumption until you tell me about a memorial to Black and Tans themselves, not their victims.