Surprisingly bad units

About cavalry :
Guys, I think you are simply speaking of different tactics, in RL soldiers are quite more versatile than in RTW...
When cavalry was forced to face (frontally I mean) infantry, with no chance to outflank, what did they do? Like the Berber cavalry at Poitiers or the Norman cavalry at Hastings they fake charge, slow down when near to the enemy foot soldiers, attack them from safe distance with missiles or long spears, then retreat to not be caught in melee. When cavalrymen see their foes disorganized or frightened, they made a full charge and rout them. Simple. You're both right and however there's no need to be disrespectful to each other...

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Originally Posted by Aper

About cavalry :
Guys, I think you are simply speaking of different tactics, in RL soldiers are quite more versatile than in RTW...
When cavalry was forced to face (frontally I mean) infantry, with no chance to outflank, what did they do? Like the Berber cavalry at Poitiers or the Norman cavalry at Hastings they fake charge, slow down when near to the enemy foot soldiers, attack them from safe distance with missiles or long spears, then retreat to not be caught in melee. When cavalrymen see their foes disorganized or frightened, they made a full charge and rout them. Simple. You're both right and however there's no need to be disrespectful to each other...

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So, a bit like Hippakontistai type cavalry, or Hetairoi Aspidophoroi.

Anyways I thought about the rinse and repeat issue and have come to the so far conclusion that very elite forces would be certainly able to do so. Like Hetairoi, people with much to lose, a reputation, wealth, social standing. People with very strong ties to the ruling house and a strong warrior codex. But I don't think this would be the case for lower or middle class cavalry. I don't think Prodromoi could perform such a maneuver. In the middle of melee, each fighting for his live, then to listen to an order of some sort, which essentially means retreat in the first place, but then not to fully retreat, but instead line up again. This is difficult and would require a very large degree of discipline and morale.

Romani early bodyguard cavalry are horrible.

At least in contrast to the bodyguards of my Pahlava/Pontos campaigns, anyway.

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Originally Posted by penguinking

Romani early bodyguard cavalry are horrible.

At least in contrast to the bodyguards of my Pahlava/Pontos campaigns, anyway.

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lol... a bit of an unfair comparison, considering that Eastern Heavy cavalry and Steppe Kataphract archers are friggin' monsters on the field.

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Originally Posted by Jaertecken

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ly_triarii.gif

The Camillian Triarii ain't that good, I usually find them too expensive early on in the campaign and I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.

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I agree with this.

Camillian Triarii is not bad to face against cavarly, buth Camilian Principes can do just as impressive job as them with less recruiting and upkeep coast.

Do not include them in an army unless they volunteer:laugh4:

Camillian Principes don't have swords, units can only have two weapons.

Triarii are better than Principes. I always train Triarii because they take fewer losses. Since the Principes aren't a sword unit, it doesn't really make sense to train them instead of Triarii unless you're very low on money. If Camillian Principes were a sword unit, then you could have some Pricipes in a legion to deal with enemy infantry and some Triarii to deal with cavalry. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to train Principes. Triarii do much better against everything than Principes. If you want a sword and pila unit in the Camillian times, just recruit Hastati.

I didn't think the Roman bodyguard was that bad. I mean, it doesn't compare to the Pahlavan or other nomadic bodyguards as you have said(who have bows in addition to lances) but it's better than many other Western bodyguards.

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Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

But I don't think this would be the case for lower or middle class cavalry. I don't think Prodromoi could perform such a maneuver. In the middle of melee, each fighting for his live, then to listen to an order of some sort, which essentially means retreat in the first place, but then not to fully retreat, but instead line up again. This is difficult and would require a very large degree of discipline and morale.

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Given the cost of maintaining horses it's unlikely that many cavalrymen would be towards the bottom of the income scale. And discipline is hardly an exclusive preserve of the noble class either. It could even be argued that the quest for glory amongst the Hellenistic or Hellenised nobility militated against discipline as they might be more keen to charge, and not want to be seen to retreat. Training, drill and discipline would be as much a result of culture as income.

In any case, I always imagined that the majority of successor troops (barring levies and "tribal" units) are more likely to be professionals or mercenaries than semi-drilled citizens, given the fact that some part of the region or other was at war more or less continuously through the period.

Triarii I think are ridiculous. I'm facing seas of them in my Epeiros campaign (VH/M) and they never seem to run out. They're something like 15 atk/27 def with ~1600 cost. It's insane.

However, I kill every Roman bodyguard I face. They suck, at least compared to other bodyguards.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ed_libypho.gif

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...an_cavalry.gif

Unlike their real world counterparts, Numidian Cavalry in this game are quite sub-par. They're expensive, and the only thing they've got over footborne skirmishers is their speed. However they're still at a disadvantage compared to them imo. For one, they're much more vulnerable to missile fire. They also don't last nearly as long when you need to put them to use somewhere, and only throw half the amount of javelins of a 100 man unit. Playing as my favorite faction (guess which one it is), two units of Numidian Javelinmen will cost you less than a single unit of Numidian Cavalry and they still have the advantage over the cavalrymen. But then again, I think that non-horse archer skirmisher cavalry in general is useless, they simply don't do enough damage.

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Originally Posted by Carthaginian General

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ed_libypho.gif

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.

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Really? Having battled half a dozen units of them recently, I must say that they are quite tough. They have an AP axe and are nearly impenetrable to missile fire. They are not meant to absorbe shock impact however, that's a spear-only-task if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

Really? Having battled half a dozen units of them recently, I must say that they are quite tough. They have an AP axe and are nearly impenetrable to missile fire. They are not meant to absorbe shock impact however, that's a spear-only-task if you ask me.

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Yep, strangely enough... they look good but are garbage in practice. There's much better ways to spend those 3000 mnai, if you ask me. Go ahead, test Iberian Assault Infantry against Ordmalica, and then test the Elite Liby Phoenician Infantry against them. And you're right, they're not meant to absorb much if anything, but they still died surprisingly fast.

Thessalians are great because it's easily available in the Balkans. I use them to supplement my generals and Thrakians.

Elephants can be used to destroy calvary and phalangists. Use your calvary to kill of enemy skirmishers first.

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Originally Posted by strategos roma

Thessalians are great because it's easily available in the Balkans. I use them to supplement my generals and Thrakians.

Elephants can be used to destroy calvary and phalangists. Use your calvary to kill of enemy skirmishers first.

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Slingers are much more effective at killing off enemy skirmishers than any cavalry.

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Originally Posted by Carthaginian General

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ed_libypho.gif

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.

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Are you serious?
They make minced meat of pretty much everything you throw them at, just make sure they're pinned by something cheap...

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Originally Posted by Zarax

Are you serious?
They make minced meat of pretty much everything you throw them at, just make sure they're pinned by something cheap...

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Yeah I'm serious. For something that costs 3000 mnai, you'd expect a unit that is sort of acceptable by the very least, which they are, but in my experience they haven't been useful at all. I might need to try them more but so far, not at all.

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Originally Posted by Carthaginian General

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ed_libypho.gif

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.

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lol, I've used them extensively and they never disappoint. First through the breach in sieges with wooden walls/ first on the walls vs stone walls they chop basically everything up. They recently pwned some ptolemy agema on the stone walls of paraitionion for me in my Qarthadast campaign. I really think your off base here.

edit: also they are a really good looking unit (as you noted)

Thessalians tend to tire and die a bit too quickly for my tastes, especially considering how expensive they are. With that said, they're not really a bad unit, as they can be very powerful.

By far the worst unit in the game is Hellenic native spearmen. They simply suck at everything. They die like flies, lose to every unit in melee combat, and rout ridiculously quickly.

As I said before, Romani consular guard cavalry are horrible. They are terrible in melee, their charge isn't that great and they die quickly. And worst of all, they don't look anywhere near as cool as any of the other bodyguards.

I use Thessalians heavily in my Epeiros campaign, and they don't tire too quickly at all, from my experience. However, I'm starting to replace them with Molosson Agema, as those guys have (very good stamina) and rarely tire. But don't beat on the Thessalians: they're strong, just not the best.

The Pantodapoi are good for one thing: Garrison duty. The Kavakaza Sparabara are better simply because of their superior traits, a longer spear, and because Hayasadan has to rely on them early on, and they can get the job done when supported by [great] eastern archers.

No single unit is terrible: it's all in context and use.

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Originally Posted by gamegeek2

I use Thessalians heavily in my Epeiros campaign, and they don't tire too quickly at all, from my experience. However, I'm starting to replace them with Molosson Agema, as those guys have (very good stamina) and rarely tire. But don't beat on the Thessalians: they're strong, just not the best.

The Pantodapoi are good for one thing: Garrison duty. The Kavakaza Sparabara are better simply because of their superior traits, a longer spear, and because Hayasadan has to rely on them early on, and they can get the job done when supported by [great] eastern archers.

No single unit is terrible: it's all in context and use.

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I would disagree. The Pantodapoi are terrible. They're not even that good at garrison duty. They are utterly useless. They lose to horse archers in melee. And they are spearmen.

And furthermore, while almost every unit, with the obvious exception of Hellenic Native Spearmen, can be decent in ideal situations or in a very narrow role, that doesn't mean they're not a bad unit. I would call a unit bad if it's grossly overcosted, or simply does not perform it's role well. The more I play with them, the more I think Thessalians fall into this category. From my experiences, you can get at most two good charges out of them before they are significantly weakened by fatigue.

penguin, can we drop discussion of thessaslians
we had 2 or 3(?) whole pages of thessalians denouncers vs supporters back last month

pantadopi is good in ideal situations
i mean
im playing rome and took Kyrene in africa (ptolemaio+ carthage at war w/ me)
and i basically got an all hoplite army + pantadopi
my hoplite basically holds the main road and pantadopi the sides
one thing i like them for
i left them on guard mode in a side road (theres 2units)
and while the main army assaults the hoplites
ptolemaic agemas etc attacks them for a full 2 minutes andpantadopi lost half the men but i had archers/slingers/javlins on them and soon.... next thing u know
i routed 2 ptolemaic elite phalanx + 2 agema + klerouchi and a machimo
lost only 70 pantadopi men and gained 2 exp bars
that was the day i decided pantadopi is good... only if u tire them out and have 2 units redy to flank

well they are utterly horible alone in pitched fihgts, but if theyre properly supported, they can be deadly to any units....similar to what happened to the makedonian succesors
lack of support = total defeat and conquer by legions!

Please adress me as penguinking, not just penguin. :laugh4:

But yes, I will drop the Thessalians. But I will never concede that Pantapodoi can ever be good. I have yet to get over the time I looked at them and thought "Spearmen? Hmmm. They're probably able to beat exhausted and wavering super-light missile cavalry in melee." I was wrong.

Have you tried guard mode with them? I remember using Pantodopai as Romani pre-Marian and while they weren't world-beaters they would hold an enemy long enough in guard mode. Heck i even beat AI Saba armies with an all-Pantodopai army, though admittedly it was due mainly to the fact that i had 20 units of Panto's and their armies were usually half-stack at best. I would actually have to say that Lugoae rank as really bad, worse than Panto's for me. Even in guard mode they seemed to melt away too much for my liking.
EDIT: And yes, i have beaten HA's with them when they are foolish enough to get into melee. Non-exhausted ones, at that.

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Originally Posted by gamegeek2

The Pantodapoi are good for one thing: Garrison duty. The Kavakaza Sparabara are better simply because of their superior traits, a longer spear, and because Hayasadan has to rely on them early on, and they can get the job done when supported by [great] eastern archers.

No single unit is terrible: it's all in context and use.

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Pantodapoi aren't even good for that. Levy hoplites are both cheaper and better. Better armour, better morale. And cost you less. Pantodapoi are worthless.

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Pantodapoi aren't even good for that. Levy hoplites are both cheaper and better. Better armour, better morale. And cost you less. Pantodapoi are worthless.

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No, I totally agree. I'm just saying they're not so terrible if you have no other options. I still recruit persian archers as garrison over them, and always disband them on sight, and that they get slaughtered by everything.

Although Pantodapoi don't really qualify for this thread, since they're not a 'surprisingly' bad unit.

Pantodapoi are worthless in battle, but they are good at garrisoning. They have the max amount of men per unit and are pretty cheap -> max public order effect.

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Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

Pantodapoi are worthless in battle, but they are good at garrisoning. They have the max amount of men per unit and are pretty cheap -> max public order effect.

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That may be true. I think there are other units that are more cost effective as garrison units, but I'm not sure. But I think this thread is about battlefield performance.

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Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

Pantodapoi are worthless in battle, but they are good at garrisoning. They have the max amount of men per unit and are pretty cheap -> max public order effect.

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Levy hoplites; cheaper, better, actually of some use should that garrison actually be called to do something besides loiter around.

My EDU says that Hoplitai Haploi cost 202 upkeep and 809 recruitment, and for Pantodapoi its 224 upkeep and 896 recruiting them. Given that Pantodapoi have 240 men on *cough* huge scale, the same amount of men of Levy Hoplites would actually cost 303 in upkeep and 1212 in recruitment. Or am I doing something completely wrong here?

Apart from writing 'large' when the scale is called 'hughe'? :grin: No, not really; though you may want to prefer Akontistai at 202 upkeep for 240 men, or Artish Pada at 203 for 240 men.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Apart from writing 'large' when the scale is called 'hughe'? :grin: No, not really; though you may want to prefer Akontistai at 202 upkeep for 240 men, or Artish Pada at 203 for 240 men.

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I stand corrected. Funny that I have built Akontistai accidentaly when I wanted to build Pantodapoi quite a few times. But this is because they both wear brown I guess.:grin:

Goidillic noble infantry just don't seem all that special to me, I may be using them wrong but they just beg the image of wading into a melee hacking limbs and heads with every attack and no man can penetrate their shining armour.

Well, it does seem you have gotten slightly the wrong idea of them. They are indeed great heavy shock infantry, but not that great. Still love charging them in the back of some Gallic levies though. Insta-death.

They're basically Midlander Champions in terms of stats afaik, but available as regionals.

To be honest, I prefer the Ordmalica (Goidilic Shock Infantry). Or even better, the Eiras attack the enemy from the front, keep them busy and chip away at their numbers while the Ordmalica flank and crash into them from behind with those huge hammers raised on high. Magnificent.

To resurrect this thread here is a fresh comment:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ly_hastati.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...an_hastati.gif

These fellows are technically worthless compared to their Principes counterparts, yet I keep using them merely for roleplay. Otherwise my sheer battlefield punch wouldn't suffer as now.

I have to agree that Hastati go down like flies

Until they get some experience... theres a number of units that are really shitty till they get 1 or 2 chevs to their name. Massalians dont hold up well till they get that first chevron, though they are my favourite, I think it has to do with the moral bonus' given when they get experience.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...se_calawre.gif

These guys are a hinderance to my army. They have no stamina, so tire extremely easy (slowing down the rest of the army). I'm almost tempted to mod the EDU file.

They are 'surprisingly bad' because they are an elite unit (who should be fit), and are expensive

By the way, I love Casse; the varied units, the body paintings, all beautiful.

The image ain't showing.

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Hastasi (Camillan) are completely worthless, chevrons or no. Indeed, if they have chevrons they have stolen them unless experience is awarded for not killing anything, dying at the slightest provocation and then running away. If you cannot afford the little bit extra for Principes then your empire is a failure and you should really only be contemplating your next campaign. I hear the point for role-playing, but I just brush it away that in my empire all young men are better trained, outfitted and 'apprenticed' by seasoned warriors than they were historically. Hence no need for Hastasi. Actually I think it is simply a matter of sefl-preservation on vh/vh with a personal 'house' rule that I must re-start a campaign as soon as I lose my first battle (including naval ones). "Bloody Pirates!".

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Originally Posted by Joszen1

Actually I think it is simply a matter of sefl-preservation on vh/vh with a personal 'house' rule that I must re-start a campaign as soon as I lose my first battle (including naval ones). "Bloody Pirates!".

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Quite ahistorical regarding the character of the Romans.

Hastati are pretty good for their cost, only 1000 or so to recruit.

hippes are crap. they are supposed to be... but holy crap they are crap! they do nothing against medium-heavish infantry, and are hopeless against professional hoplites

Almost every unit in EB is useful, even if they suck. I often find myself hiring ridiculously expensive and also absurdly weak Pontus Spearmen when I am desperately in need of men in my excursion into Asia Minor. I guess these bastards have a monopoly on the merc market...so the quality of products they offer declines. >_<

@ gamegeek2, I hear you, I was just venting cause I lost a pretty important battle and needed something to blame. As I saw it my Hastati had failed to live up to Roman standards of bravery.

@ Centurio Nixalsverdrus, :shame::embarassed::sweatdrop:, I am ok. Maybe I'm just not a very good general and will never succeed in conquering an entire map without losing a single battle. I hear you on the historicity though, but shouldn't Hastati become Principes -with experience - if everything were true to reality? I am humbled and will start again, making much use of Hastati. I will also write a nice AAR about it so my historical inaccuracies can be further lambasted. (Bear in mind I am a South African so what I know I have found out in on my own time).

@ Intranetusa, indeed, for all things there is a season. But I don't think that is the point of this forum, I think it offers the opportunity for EB players to discuss how they have been seriously surprized (in their own idiocy) and 'let down' by a particular unit. All the units have a purpose because this is a superb, awe-inspiring mod!

Wow,i feel like in Mythbusters.
Keep it coming boys.
*goes to :book:

Hippies always beat hastati in a headlong charge!!! hastati is the crappest crap for the romans... even Rorarii is better than them...

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

Hippies always beat hastati in a headlong charge!!! hastati is the crappest crap for the romans... even Rorarii is better than them...

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I've NEVER seen that. Hippeis are possibly the crappiest cavalry in the game: they can barely rout Akontistai without losses, let alone Hastati.

Overhand-spear cavalry generally sucks. What can you do with them besides chasing routers? Even Asiatikoi Hippeis with their axes suck in comparison to similarly equipped cavalry that uses its spear underhand.

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

Hippies always beat hastati in a headlong charge!!! hastati is the crappest crap for the romans... even Rorarii is better than them...

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What battle difficulty are you playing at? Battle difficulty higher than medium gives insane attack bonuses to the A.I., thus completely throwing off units balance. This cannot be modded, unfortunately, so the recommended battle difficulty for EB is medium.

Medium... just place your hippeis in 2 horse deep formation, in the front of a line full of hastati, charge them, and they'll send half of the hastati flying without wings....:laugh4:

Hastati is only good when you face all-crap infantry line (consists of spearmen), but why bulit hastati if you can get princeps with a bit more investment and maintenence costs?

But now I solve the problem myself, I cut the hastati's wage down to 200, and now they're worhwhile troops...:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

but why bulit hastati if you can get princeps with a bit more investment and maintenence costs?

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Why training them? Because they were the less experienced part of the roman troops and training them is realistic and you can see that we want realism, as we are playing a realism mod. Else we wouldn't do it, would we?

By the way, I don't think Hastati are surprisingly bad. They are supposed to be worse than Principes and who would be surprised about that?

I'm surprised that many think hastati are bad (surprisingly so). granted, stats are garbage, but these guys will help you win, in a surprising way: they can tire the enemy out in a fight, reducing their effectiveness, and letting the Principes do their thing with fewer losses. Just like real life. they are thus doing exactly what they're supposed to: act like cannon fodder.

(yes, when playing romani, I rotate me forces. no, I won't tell you how)

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

Medium... just place your hippeis in 2 horse deep formation, in the front of a line full of hastati, charge them, and they'll send half of the hastati flying without wings....:laugh4:

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In my experience, ordinary hippeis are crap chargers. Prodromoi could do this perhaps, but not hippeis, and certainly not when the hastati are standing still and bracing themselves for a charge. Sure, with repeated charges and enough patience, the hippeis will eventually rout them but not before losing a significant number of men, probably more than it costs to recruit a new unit of hastati.

They are way too expensive if you want a worthwhile salary for their work... I suspect that 200(ca)/200(po) minai is sufficient salary for them, rather than 252(ca)/267(po) minai... it was true they are here for historical reasons, but did it historical to had their salary levels as high as princepes? 262(ca)/296(po).... anyway, if you recreating those same - level salary, you just recreate the vanilla conditions of hastati...:smash:

Stop being mean to the Hastati! They are a decent enough unit and equivalent to light infantry. They have a job and they do it well, so they aren't "surprisingly bad" (I don't think they're bad at all).

Also, the Roman army consisted of citizen soldiers, so I was under the belief that they were only paid wages if they were away for a long time. (I once read Livy a long long time ago)

Prodromoi make all other cavalry obsolete (until Hetaroi at least)...

controversial statement i know ;)

Prodromoi are frustratingly good units. I want to mix up my cavalry squadrons, but you can use all prodromoi until Hetairoi.

Hastati lose men, but they still win the battle. Polybians are way better than Camillians. Hastati last long enough when you put them in guard mode. They get better with experience chevrons which represents the unit getting used to fighting together. Historically, Roman citizens were grouped with different people every war, with some exceptions. They would suck their first time on campaign and get better by the end. But back on topic, Hastati are good because they are cheap line infantry.

I repel cavalry charges by moving up my second line which causes the horses to flee due to being surrounded by so many troops. I never stand by and let my hastati sit and take damage.

Hastati of course are worse than Principes. But that doesn't make them bad infantry! They still are at least decent sword infantry, so nothing on my hastati.

Hastati are better than many barbarian units out there, including even Gaeroas. They are decent medium infantry and extremely cost effective, even though the best cost effective solution, theoretically, is to recruit only Principes.

Does the overhand cavalry units such as Hippeis or Eastern Medium Cavalry lower its spears/lances when charging? I have yet to succeed in that, bu then again, I rarely use those units for charging. I really fail to see how they can charge without the lowering of the lance. Mercenary generals make up the bulk of my cavalry, and most of the time they are the only cavalry besides the Eqvites Consvlares.

I think the problem with Hastati is due to limitations of the RTW engine, it's difficult to withdraw them and bring the Principes in without heavy casualties. If we could do that, let the Hastati tire a unit out then withdraw in an orderly fashion they would be much more useful. I still wouldn't class them as "bad" though.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Does the overhand cavalry units such as Hippeis or Eastern Medium Cavalry lower its spears/lances when charging? I have yet to succeed in that, bu then again, I rarely use those units for charging. I really fail to see how they can charge without the lowering of the lance. Mercenary generals make up the bulk of my cavalry, and most of the time they are the only cavalry besides the Eqvites Consvlares.

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It's weird. When performing a successful charge, the overhand cavalry will actually thrust their spears slightly downward into their enemies a la the normal attack animation. It's barely noticeable, and successful charges are hard to distinguish from unsuccessful ones because even if a charge does hit home, it'll only do so with .15 lethality, so enemy casualties will be minimal.

Yeah, don't bash on the Hastati, they're good for their cost (only 1000 mnai or so). Bash on the RTW engine for its inability to change lethality on a single weapon.

Oh, and as far as "Surprisingly bad units" goes, I'd nominate any sort of upper-level kopis/falcata skirmisher cavalry. Equites Campanici, Hippeis Tarantinoi, and Ambakaro Epones always fall embarrassingly short of the example set by the lowly Leuce Epos (IMHO the best javelin cavalry). Sure, armor and staying power are nice, but they're nowhere near as nice as a punishing charge.

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Originally Posted by Cullhwch

Oh, and as far as "Surprisingly bad units" goes, I'd nominate any sort of upper-level kopis/falcata skirmisher cavalry. Equites Campanici, Hippeis Tarantinoi, and Ambakaro Epones always fall embarrassingly short of the example set by the lowly Leuce Epos (IMHO the best javelin cavalry). Sure, armor and staying power are nice, but they're nowhere near as nice as a punishing charge.

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Equites Campanici aren't bad, especially considering how bad the other Roman cavalry is. I agree with you about the other two, though- they're way more expensive but not better than Leuce Epos.

I nominate Thureophoroi, as I find peltasts more effective is a supportive flanking role that they are, and they're not very good at holding a line. They're not awful but nor are they good. Lucanian infantry are also really bad. The Casse light cavalry is horrible, especially when compared to the excellent Gallic ones.

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Originally Posted by Cullhwch

Oh, and as far as "Surprisingly bad units" goes, I'd nominate any sort of upper-level kopis/falcata skirmisher cavalry. Equites Campanici, Hippeis Tarantinoi, and Ambakaro Epones always fall embarrassingly short of the example set by the lowly Leuce Epos (IMHO the best javelin cavalry). Sure, armor and staying power are nice, but they're nowhere near as nice as a punishing charge.

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How true. Cavalry, even Cataphracts will die quickly if bogged down by spearmen. It is the charge that matters. Cavalry is basically useless without a spear/lance as a sword does not really have the impact of a spear. All the sword cavalry is good for is chasing down routers. Their charge does almost no damage and melee is usually not an option. That is why I always recruit the horse archers with the spears/lances as secondary weapons, as the sword-armed ones are useless for all but mop-up duties once the arrows are expended.

I think you are harsh on the equites campanici. Yes they don't have a lance or spear to charge with, but they aren't supposed to charge. They are skirmishers. What they are good for is killing other cavalry. If you have your normal equites bogged down in a battle with another cavalry unit, the campanici with their swords can kill the AI cavalry which will be using it's slower spear attack.

i find sword cavalry very nice in mobbing enemy FMs....

Sword cavalry are fine, just don't use them against melee infantry except to mob them and cause a rout. But they are a tad overpriced for what they do, and I prefer Leuce Epos.

About that Thureophoroi comment - they are very solid heavy infantry, with much more staying power than Peltasts, and they can put most cavalry to flight.

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Originally Posted by We shall fwee...Wodewick

I think you are harsh on the equites campanici. Yes they don't have a lance or spear to charge with, but they aren't supposed to charge. They are skirmishers. What they are good for is killing other cavalry. If you have your normal equites bogged down in a battle with another cavalry unit, the campanici with their swords can kill the AI cavalry which will be using it's slower spear attack.

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Or you could just charge a unit of Curepos at that engaged cavalry unit and rout it immediately without having to worry about a prolonged melee. There are very few situations in which Campanici et al are better than skirmisher/shock cavalry.

Oh, and Thureophoroi are far from disappointing. They can be a great bread-and-butter unit, and almost perfectly priced for what they do.

1)Thureophoroi. Remember, that they are suppose to cover phalanx weak spots, not form the battle line. With spears they are a lot better at receiving cavalry charges than peltasts, while higher armour gives them more durabiility against missiles and lets them hold that flank a bit longer. Denser formation makes them better in guard mode, in which peltasts suck.

2) Sword cavalry. If your opponent has the cavalry superiority, and is human, you won`t have the luxury of charging here and there, as you wish. He will tie your horsemen in melee and won`t let you go... unless your cavalry has enough melee skill to make such a tie-up undesirable for him.

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Originally Posted by Cullhwch

Or you could just charge a unit of Curepos at that engaged cavalry unit and rout it immediately without having to worry about a prolonged melee. There are very few situations in which Campanici et al are better than skirmisher/shock cavalry.

Oh, and Thureophoroi are far from disappointing. They can be a great bread-and-butter unit, and almost perfectly priced for what they do.

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Exactly, cavalry without spears/lances are entirely useless.

agreed.

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Originally Posted by Woreczko

1)Thureophoroi. Remember, that they are suppose to cover phalanx weak spots, not form the battle line. With spears they are a lot better at receiving cavalry charges than peltasts, while higher armour gives them more durabiility against missiles and lets them hold that flank a bit longer. Denser formation makes them better in guard mode, in which peltasts suck.

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They're not really bad. But if I want a unit to hold my flank with durability and that's good in guard mode, I'll go with classical hoplites, who are much more durable. If I want to have a versatile outflanking unit, I'll go with peltasts. The Thureophoroi are sort of stuck in between the two, unable to do either job that well.

I love hoplites. The missile ability of Thureophoroi is nice. But I've found that the lower defense and morale of the unit attracts the enemy to the flanks. I don't have that problem with hoplites or hypaspists.

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Originally Posted by johnhughthom

I think the problem with Hastati is due to limitations of the RTW engine, it's difficult to withdraw them and bring the Principes in without heavy casualties. If we could do that, let the Hastati tire a unit out then withdraw in an orderly fashion they would be much more useful. I still wouldn't class them as "bad" though.

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I've never had too many issues with Hastati epically failing as some has stated. I dunno, it might just be the fact that I usually play infantry heavy armies. They have served me well in my previous campaigns where I restricted my self to 1/2 stack armies as the Romans.(GAH THE PO RIVER VALLEY where I was outnumbered 4 to 1) Silver chevron Hastati made up the core of my Iberian armies. I left them there defending towns for about 5 years before I managed to ship/walk a few more legions over there.

I have actually come up with a standard set of heavy ifnantry tactics for EB and made a fairly good version of the manipular swap:

1) The main thing to do with any sort of heavy infantry is that you put the first line of them in guard mode. The defense bonus and more importantly that insane stamina bonus(seems to be related to the fact that fewer of your men actually fight/move) make your men last so much longer. I usually spread this line fairly thin if I'm encountering lots of infantry(2-3 men thick) but thicker(4-6) if I'm fighting cavalry.

2) Never order guys in guard mode to attack, keep them in guard mode and receive the enemy's charge. If you tell them to attack, they lose the stamina bonus because the whole unit will start pushing.

The Swap: You spread your Hastati and Principles in two thin lines(2-3 guys) with the principles right behind the Hastati. You set your Hastati to defend to grind away at the enemy's stamina. You set your Principles to the normal attack mode. As the battle is joined, you will notice your Hastati slowly being pushed back. This is because guard mode units that are not told to attack do not push forward, they are pushed backwards instead. After a while, the Hastati line will be pushed into the Principles line. Hopefully the enemy is tired by now. This will cause the fresh Principles to engage and start pushing forward. After a little bit your Hastati and Principles will be overlapping.

When you wish to pull your Hastati out, take them out of guard mode and tell them to run out of there. They'll do it and only take a few casualties because low stamina lowers lethality and they can't chase your guys because the Principles are pushing them backwards.

The Roman infantry seem particularly well suited for this sort of thing especially those heavily armored Samnite spearmen that are really good at just sitting there and not dying while tiring out the enemy.