Surprisingly bad units

[Carthaginian General]

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.



Unlike their real world counterparts, Numidian Cavalry in this game are quite sub-par. They're expensive, and the only thing they've got over footborne skirmishers is their speed. However they're still at a disadvantage compared to them imo. For one, they're much more vulnerable to missile fire. They also don't last nearly as long when you need to put them to use somewhere, and only throw half the amount of javelins of a 100 man unit. Playing as my favorite faction (guess which one it is), two units of Numidian Javelinmen will cost you less than a single unit of Numidian Cavalry and they still have the advantage over the cavalrymen. But then again, I think that non-horse archer skirmisher cavalry in general is useless, they simply don't do enough damage.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.

Really? Having battled half a dozen units of them recently, I must say that they are quite tough. They have an AP axe and are nearly impenetrable to missile fire. They are not meant to absorbe shock impact however, that's a spear-only-task if you ask me.

[Carthaginian General]

Really? Having battled half a dozen units of them recently, I must say that they are quite tough. They have an AP axe and are nearly impenetrable to missile fire. They are not meant to absorbe shock impact however, that's a spear-only-task if you ask me.

Yep, strangely enough... they look good but are garbage in practice. There's much better ways to spend those 3000 mnai, if you ask me. Go ahead, test Iberian Assault Infantry against Ordmalica, and then test the Elite Liby Phoenician Infantry against them. And you're right, they're not meant to absorb much if anything, but they still died surprisingly fast.

[Zarax]

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.

Are you serious?
They make minced meat of pretty much everything you throw them at, just make sure they're pinned by something cheap...

[Carthaginian General]

Are you serious?
They make minced meat of pretty much everything you throw them at, just make sure they're pinned by something cheap...

Yeah I'm serious. For something that costs 3000 mnai, you'd expect a unit that is sort of acceptable by the very least, which they are, but in my experience they haven't been useful at all. I might need to try them more but so far, not at all.

[HasdrubalBarca]

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.

lol, I've used them extensively and they never disappoint. First through the breach in sieges with wooden walls/ first on the walls vs stone walls they chop basically everything up. They recently pwned some ptolemy agema on the stone walls of paraitionion for me in my Qarthadast campaign. I really think your off base here.

edit: also they are a really good looking unit (as you noted)

[penguinking]

Thessalians tend to tire and die a bit too quickly for my tastes, especially considering how expensive they are. With that said, they're not really a bad unit, as they can be very powerful.

By far the worst unit in the game is Hellenic native spearmen. They simply suck at everything. They die like flies, lose to every unit in melee combat, and rout ridiculously quickly.

As I said before, Romani consular guard cavalry are horrible. They are terrible in melee, their charge isn't that great and they die quickly. And worst of all, they don't look anywhere near as cool as any of the other bodyguards.

[gamegeek2]

I use Thessalians heavily in my Epeiros campaign, and they don't tire too quickly at all, from my experience. However, I'm starting to replace them with Molosson Agema, as those guys have (very good stamina) and rarely tire. But don't beat on the Thessalians: they're strong, just not the best.

The Pantodapoi are good for one thing: Garrison duty. The Kavakaza Sparabara are better simply because of their superior traits, a longer spear, and because Hayasadan has to rely on them early on, and they can get the job done when supported by [great] eastern archers.

No single unit is terrible: it's all in context and use.

[penguinking]

I use Thessalians heavily in my Epeiros campaign, and they don't tire too quickly at all, from my experience. However, I'm starting to replace them with Molosson Agema, as those guys have (very good stamina) and rarely tire. But don't beat on the Thessalians: they're strong, just not the best.

The Pantodapoi are good for one thing: Garrison duty. The Kavakaza Sparabara are better simply because of their superior traits, a longer spear, and because Hayasadan has to rely on them early on, and they can get the job done when supported by [great] eastern archers.

No single unit is terrible: it's all in context and use.

I would disagree. The Pantodapoi are terrible. They're not even that good at garrison duty. They are utterly useless. They lose to horse archers in melee. And they are spearmen.

And furthermore, while almost every unit, with the obvious exception of Hellenic Native Spearmen, can be decent in ideal situations or in a very narrow role, that doesn't mean they're not a bad unit. I would call a unit bad if it's grossly overcosted, or simply does not perform it's role well. The more I play with them, the more I think Thessalians fall into this category. From my experiences, you can get at most two good charges out of them before they are significantly weakened by fatigue.

[teh1337tim]

penguin, can we drop discussion of thessaslians
we had 2 or 3(?) whole pages of thessalians denouncers vs supporters back last month

pantadopi is good in ideal situations
i mean
im playing rome and took Kyrene in africa (ptolemaio+ carthage at war w/ me)
and i basically got an all hoplite army + pantadopi
my hoplite basically holds the main road and pantadopi the sides
one thing i like them for
i left them on guard mode in a side road (theres 2units)
and while the main army assaults the hoplites
ptolemaic agemas etc attacks them for a full 2 minutes andpantadopi lost half the men but i had archers/slingers/javlins on them and soon.... next thing u know
i routed 2 ptolemaic elite phalanx + 2 agema + klerouchi and a machimo
lost only 70 pantadopi men and gained 2 exp bars
that was the day i decided pantadopi is good... only if u tire them out and have 2 units redy to flank

well they are utterly horible alone in pitched fihgts, but if theyre properly supported, they can be deadly to any units....similar to what happened to the makedonian succesors
lack of support = total defeat and conquer by legions!

[penguinking]

Please adress me as penguinking, not just penguin.

But yes, I will drop the Thessalians. But I will never concede that Pantapodoi can ever be good. I have yet to get over the time I looked at them and thought "Spearmen? Hmmm. They're probably able to beat exhausted and wavering super-light missile cavalry in melee." I was wrong.

[LordCurlyton]

Have you tried guard mode with them? I remember using Pantodopai as Romani pre-Marian and while they weren't world-beaters they would hold an enemy long enough in guard mode. Heck i even beat AI Saba armies with an all-Pantodopai army, though admittedly it was due mainly to the fact that i had 20 units of Panto's and their armies were usually half-stack at best. I would actually have to say that Lugoae rank as really bad, worse than Panto's for me. Even in guard mode they seemed to melt away too much for my liking.
EDIT: And yes, i have beaten HA's with them when they are foolish enough to get into melee. Non-exhausted ones, at that.

[QuintusSertorius]

The Pantodapoi are good for one thing: Garrison duty. The Kavakaza Sparabara are better simply because of their superior traits, a longer spear, and because Hayasadan has to rely on them early on, and they can get the job done when supported by [great] eastern archers.

No single unit is terrible: it's all in context and use.

Pantodapoi aren't even good for that. Levy hoplites are both cheaper and better. Better armour, better morale. And cost you less. Pantodapoi are worthless.

[gamegeek2]

Pantodapoi aren't even good for that. Levy hoplites are both cheaper and better. Better armour, better morale. And cost you less. Pantodapoi are worthless.

No, I totally agree. I'm just saying they're not so terrible if you have no other options. I still recruit persian archers as garrison over them, and always disband them on sight, and that they get slaughtered by everything.

[penguinking]

Although Pantodapoi don't really qualify for this thread, since they're not a 'surprisingly' bad unit.