This Week's Evil Islam Thread

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There are many openings, but the islam as a political ideoligy is a very recent thing, it is no longer just a spriritual thing.

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Yes, and you know who are responsible for that? Not the large mainstream of the Muslim population, but those politically traumatised activists from Saudi-Arabia and Afghanistan. Before they hijacked planes, they hijacked the image of Islam.


EDIT: For some time I had little hope for reform within Sunni Islam, until I came across Ali Abdel Raziq, a Sunni scholar from Egypt who died in 1966. His views are very interesting:

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"The complete separation of religion and politics is to be achieved in the interest of Islam, as a universal faith. The faith could, then be released free from the contingencies of history and power politics. This device can also be instrumental in furnishing the basis of modern state. It thus keeps the option open whether we want, to stick to the 'archaic and cumbersome regime, or weather the time has come to lay the foundation for a new political organization according to the latest progress of human spirit ."

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"Islam is innocent of this insitution of the caliphate as Muslims commonly understand it. Religion has nothing to do with one form of government rather than anothe r and there is nothing in Islam which forbids Muslims to destroy their old political system and build a new one on the basis of the newest conceptions of the human spirit and the experience of nations."

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This is incredibly important in order to (re)concile Islam with western values. He was thrown out of Al-Azhar university for his book, but it did spark new intellectual and philosophical debate in Egypt. If Shi'a Islam reforms in Iran, then Sunni Islam will reform in Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

There are many openings, but the islam as a political ideoligy is a very recent thing, it is no longer just a spriritual thing. We leave them be and they don't impose on us, sounds good?

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Another interesting point. I'm afraid I don't think you are on firm ground arguing that political Islam is new. Right up until the break-up of the Ottoman empire, this was pretty much the way in which most Muslims (in the Middle east) were governed. The British and French rule of the middle east (after WW1) ended such Islamist governance, but as the emergence of the Muslim brotherhood in the 1930s (IIRC) shows -Islam as a central part of politics was never forgotten about either.

The concept of Islamism is indeed that Islam should be more than a spiritual thing, and play a central role in political society/life too. Salafists say that the purest form of Islamic society was that during Muhammads lifetime -where he personaly ruled as religious, political and military leader. So to a Salafi mindset, this is what should be aimed at -all 3 pillars of governance under one religious, political and military leader.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

So... knocking on doors is the only thing that missionaries do?

I've had several with speakers / pamphlets / books on street corners. Just publicly updating believers, eh? :dizzy2:

~:smoking:

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Huh, never encountered that actually. Only ever seen mormons, jehovas and some random lutherans do that...

@Fragony: the notion of Christianity as a force to shape society and more or less dictate its norms and values is something that is strongly entrenched if not a core value/proposition of quite a few Protestant churches. True, at the core the Quran has always been more about a practical set of rules/morals to which a believer must (strive to) conform; but you should not ignore that part of the beliefs espoused by Christianity/Islam involves things that are little more than attempts to read such rules/morals into their Scripture. So even if Christianity may lack some Sunnah it more than makes up for this by “interpreting” what exactly Jesus/Peter/Paul/et.all mean in some given verse. :shrug:

Muslims in the UK get TV slots to complain that they're being descriminated against.

Things in Pakistan are different... Death to the infidel and family!

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Muslims in the UK get TV slots to complain that they're being descriminated against.

Things in Pakistan are different... Death to the infidel and family!

~:smoking:

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Why are you comparing a democratic UK to a dictatorship?

Religion is persecuted in China as well, should british people of chinese origin face restrictions too? Shouldn't Chinese Brits be allowed to tell others of Taoism because the Chinese Communist Party hunts down christian missionaries?

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Muslims in the UK get TV slots to complain that they're being descriminated against.

Things in Pakistan are different... Death to the infidel and family!

~:smoking:

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Let's put things in perspective, I'm from teh biblebelt and some kids weren't allowed to play at our house. Gutmensch knows that's just as bad and that islam is very tolerant. Stockholm syndromed lemming.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Why are you comparing a democratic UK to a dictatorship?

Religion is persecuted in China as well, should british people of chinese origin face restrictions too? Shouldn't Chinese Brits be allowed to tell others of Taoism because the Chinese Communist Party hunts down christian missionaries?

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HI straw meet grasp, are you really relativating this? Yep, you are.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

HI straw meet grasp, are you really relativating this? Yep, you are.

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Are you saying that the cultural revolution was better than fundamentalist islam?

You're starting to sound like a commie, Frags...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Why are you comparing a democratic UK to a dictatorship?

Religion is persecuted in China as well, should british people of chinese origin face restrictions too? Shouldn't Chinese Brits be allowed to tell others of Taoism because the Chinese Communist Party hunts down christian missionaries?

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In China, as you well know, religion is persecuted by the state.
In Pakistan, as you well know, religion is persecuted by followers of the religion and the state which is itself heavily influenced by the same religion.

Why build this particular straw man?

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

In China, as you well know, religion is persecuted by the state.
In Pakistan, as you well know, religion is persecuted by followers of the religion and the state which is itself heavily influenced by the same religion.

Why build this particular straw man?

~:smoking:

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The cultural revolution, as you should be well aware of, wasn't just done by "the state", but but millions of chinese people. Just like the holocaust was done by the german people and not Hitler personally, and religious persecution in Pakistan is done by religious people in Pakistan and not the Prime Minister personally.

Attributing the deadly flaws of communism to a select few, a "corrupt elite"(or state), is a well-known communist denial lie. I wasn't aware of any others subscribing to such nonsense. The attrocities committed by Communism, Nazism, Islamism, Cathlocism or whatever isn't performed by Mao, Hitler or some pope or mullah, they are performed by the masses, who are in turned whipped into action by those mullahs, popes or Maos.

Oh, in China you're going back 60 years. You didn't mention that.

I was meaning that in Pakistan it is done by the individual Muslims - that was my whole point. And yes, they are whipped to greater acts of intolerance and hatred by their religious leaders.

How exactly does this make it a good thing?

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Are you saying that the cultural revolution was better than fundamentalist islam?

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eh, no I didn't, how is that even related, or smart. I'm really bad at leftist logic, I just don't see it

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Oh, in China you're going back 60 years. You didn't mention that.

I was meaning that in Pakistan it is done by the individual Muslims - that was my whole point. And yes, they are whipped to greater acts of intolerance and hatred by their religious leaders.

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It's been happening for 60 years now, yes. And it's still done by individual Chinese citizens, though certainly helped by the state, just like religious persecution in Pakistan is done by individual Pakistanis, though certainly helped by religious authorities.

And I fail to see the difference between the two. Except, perhaps, that religion was nearly wiped out by the cultural revolution in China, so the opportunity to persecute religion isn't so big there anymore.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

How exactly does this make it a good thing?

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Good? Who's talking about "good"? My question was why what's happening in Pakistan(or China) should affect the lives of British citizens.

I still think China is a poor example, as it has increasingly opened up to various different religions which are tolerated as long as they do not try to undermine the state.

For Pakistan you can interchange Iran, Egypt, Indonesia, Iraq, Saudi Arabia or any number of other Islamic states. It so happened that Pakistan is the current cause celebre as well as is the home of many Muslims in the UK. I find the irony that they feel persecuted at the same time their extended family does vastly worse things to other religions. No introspective "perhaps things here aren't perfect, but are a lot worse elsewhere" or "remove the plank from my own eye before the speck from my neighbours".

~:smoking:

The difference between the two is that you excuse the fundamentalist islam by bringing up the cultural revolution, and would never excuse the cultural revolution by bringing up the fundamentalist islam.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

I find the irony that they feel persecuted at the same time their extended family does vastly worse things to other religions.

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I still don't see why that should affect british laws.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

The difference between the two is that you excuse the fundamentalist islam by bringing up the cultural revolution, and would never excuse the cultural revolution by bringing up the fundamentalist islam.

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Nonsense.

Does bringing up Gulag excuse the Holocaust? I think not.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Does bringing up Gulag excuse the Holocaust? I think not.

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Neither do I, and I don't feel the need to relativate either

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I still don't see why that should affect british laws.

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Laws? No. A feeling of gratitude towards one's supposedly adopted country? Yes.

~:smoking:

There are plenty of communists living in the west who'd like nothing more than to see western civilization crash and burn, just like muslim extremists do. But should that affect our laws?

I know a few people with deep connections with FARC living in Norway, taking advantage of our western civilization while hoping for a collapse of capitalism. but I don't think we should persecute or ban communism because of that. I still believe it is their right to engage in political debate, give their opinions and try to convince others that their opinions are correct.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

So... knocking on doors is the only thing that missionaries do?

I've had several with speakers / pamphlets / books on street corners. Just publicly updating believers, eh? :dizzy2:

~:smoking:

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they knock on the door and give us chocolate.

shame i don't like chocolate much tho........

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

There are plenty of communists living in the west who'd like nothing more than to see western civilization crash and burn, just like muslim extremists do. But should that affect our laws?

I know a few people with deep connections with FARC living in Norway, taking advantage of our western civilization while hoping for a collapse of capitalism. but I don't think we should persecute or ban communism because of that. I still believe it is their right to engage in political debate, give their opinions and try to convince others that their opinions are correct.

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Who's talking about changing any law? When it comes to these schools in the uk, yes but only because of a loophole in Brittish law. In general, no.

edit: stay away from these FARC guys, they are dangerous. Really. Ideological hobbyism for Che groupies, but the real deal isn't kidding they are just as dangerous as the RAF

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Laws? No. A feeling of gratitude towards one's supposedly adopted country? Yes.

~:smoking:

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agreed.

the aim should always be to naturalise an immigrant group, and if a particular group is resistant to naturalisation then they should be considered less desirable as a target immigrant group.

its called discrimination, and i'm all for it.

we have enough people who bitch and moan about britain already, without importing more.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

we have enough people who bitch and moan about britain already, without importing more.

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Bitching and moaning is a democratic right and duty.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Bitching and moaning is a democratic right and duty.

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sure, from your citizens.

but it also a responsibility of the state to look to the well-being of its citizens, and that is not achieved by importing an additional bunch of people who will bitch and moan about being british.

a nations prime responsibility is to its own citizens, not justifying the unhappiness of 'natives' now because imports will become natives later.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

a nations prime responsibility is to its own citizens

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In a nationalists mind: sure.

In an internationalists mind: nope.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

In a nationalists mind: sure.

In an internationalists mind: nope.

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Than kicking them out of the country isn' a problem either, why would it be, that thing is really big

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

In a nationalists mind: sure.

In an internationalists mind: nope.

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that's fortunate, i'm a nationalist living in a nation state, phew!

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

that's fortunate, i'm a nationalist living in a nation state, phew!

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Yes, that was kinda my point.......

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Yes, that was kinda my point.......

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So can we kick them out, from an internationist view they can live on 99.9% of the planet earth. Not such bad odds

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Yes, that was kinda my point.......

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what was your point again?

that you, with an ideology that is irrelevant to the situation you live in, profess to be content with the unhappiness of your fellow countrymen neighbours, all because your 'utopian' ideal is more important than the reality they live within.

is that it, more or less?

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

what was your point again?

that you, with an ideology that is irrelevant to the situation you live in, profess to be content with the unhappiness of your fellow countrymen neighbours, all because your 'utopian' ideal is more important than the reality they live within.

is that it, more or less?

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Ah yes, because opposing views must be ridiculous.

Everything is clear now, thanks!

What chauvinistic nonsense. Oh well, at least I have learned that trying to point out that people can hold different views without being retards is a waste of time when it comes to Furunculus.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Ah yes, because opposing views must be ridiculous.

Everything is clear now, thanks!

What chauvinistic nonsense. Oh well, at least I have learned that trying to point out that people can hold different views without being retards is a waste of time when it comes to Furunculus.

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You are the one dancing around reality, you can't accept it, it's against your religion. And religious you are, you just don't notice it because of absolute faith.

EDIT: On second thought I don't care enough to get an infraction over this.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

EDIT: On second thought I don't care enough to get an infraction over this.

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Well done, babystepping to the leftist enlightment, it's possible.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Well done, babystepping to the leftist enlightment, it's possible.

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Have fun with your delusions.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Have fun with your delusions.

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Horetore mia muca you are so equal when you are annoyed, but enough of this I don't want to be the cause of any backroom moodswings.

Gentlemen, the mood is turning ugly.

Please refrain from personal insults or demeaning your opponent. I'm sure you are capable of addressing the arguments rather than each other's character.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Ah yes, because opposing views must be ridiculous.

Everything is clear now, thanks!

What chauvinistic nonsense. Oh well, at least I have learned that trying to point out that people can hold different views without being retards is a waste of time when it comes to Furunculus.

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why would you think that?

i disagree with many of my countrymen on many things, not least immigration.

the limit of my original argument was that the state should not import more malcontent's if it takes seriously the well-being of its citizens, and yet somehow my view is chauvinistic and i believe that anyone who disagrees with <me> is a retard..........

odd

This:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

In a nationalists mind: sure.

In an internationalists mind: nope.

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...Was an attempt to say that your view is logical within your world-view, while my view is logical within my world-view, and that we won't come to any conclusion because we see things in a different light, even though i consider your position reasonable.

To which you reply with this:

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

that you, with an ideology that is irrelevant to the situation you live in, profess to be content with the unhappiness of your fellow countrymen neighbours, all because your 'utopian' ideal is more important than the reality they live within.

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...Which I see as another view of saying that I'm a retard.

It doesn't say you're a retard, merely that your beliefs are incorrect.

A belief by definition can not be altered by logical argument.

~:smoking:

Link

Something that I'd not come across before. This sort of activism is the only thing that can truly defeat Radical Islam - when exponents of the "silent majority" stop being silent.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Link

Something that I'd not come across before. This sort of activism is the only thing that can truly defeat Radical Islam - when exponents of the "silent majority" stop being silent.

~:smoking:

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No, rory, they're all evil remember.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

No, rory, they're all evil remember.

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Where did he say that they are all evil, that's a leftist reflex, pavlov WOOF

good boy

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Where did he say that they are all evil, that's a leftist reflex, pavlov WOOF

good boy

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Where did I say he said they're all evil? Is that your "rightist reflex"?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

No, rory, they're all evil remember.

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there

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Originally Posted by Fragony

there

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You need to get your reading glasses on, frags...

He was saying that you call them all evil, Fragony (without saying your name, but it was an obvious reference to you).

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Originally Posted by Beskar

He was saying that you call them all evil, Fragony (without saying your name, but it was an obvious reference to you).

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ya, gettit. But can't just decide that I say that, I have to do it first. His leftism blocks certain input he can't read it

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Originally Posted by Fragony

ya, gettit. But can't just decide that I say that, I have to do it first. His leftism blocks certain input he can't read it

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You've really drowned in your own fanaticism now, haven't you?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

You've really drowned in your own fanaticism now, haven't you?

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Find me a fanatic post, there aren't any, it's not real

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Find me a fanatic post, there aren't any, it's not real

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The one I just replied to is a shining example. As are the ones above it.

EDIT: But it's no wonder that the fanatic is unable to see the blindingly obvious and subsequently denies reality.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

The one I just replied to is a shining example. As are the ones above it.

EDIT: But it's no wonder that the fanatic is unable to see the blindingly obvious and subsequently denies reality.

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So where do I say it? Nobody did. When you say something bad about islam the leftist brain overloads and you get something like this

There are problems
SO YOU SAY THAT ALL
no I said
SO YOU SAY THAT ALL
no I said
SO YOU SAY THAT ALL

etc

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Originally Posted by Fragony

So where do I say it? Nobody did. When you say something bad about islam the leftist brain overloads and you get something like this

There are problems
SO YOU SAY THAT ALL
no I said
SO YOU SAY THAT ALL
no I said
SO YOU SAY THAT ALL

etc

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What was your policy on hiring arab workers again?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

What was your policy on hiring arab workers again?

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I didn't, why?

This Week's Evil Islam Thread has just qualified for This Week's Inevitable Lock.

:closed: