Hey, let's not get too personal here. Let's debate Shibumi's ideas, not his person.
Shibumi, surely your "sympathize with everyone" perspective might lead you to consider the feelings of OBL's many, many victims? Consider the immediate victims of his attacks, which number somewhere in the neighborhood of six thousand. Then consider that the most recent Afghan war would not have taken place if he had not attacked us on our soil. Consider the epic loss of life that stemmed from this man's actions. And as the blog I linked discussed, consider the idealistic men and women who signed up for the military in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, many of whom gave their lives to oppose OBL's insane vision of a global caliphate.
Given the toil, sweat, blood and tears that have flowed from OBL's actions, don't Americans have some small right to celebrate his demise?
OBM, much like Che Guevarra, fought US imperialism, or so some say.
The USA is a renegade in foreign politics. The blood toll on every dollar is immense. When was the last time USA had a peaceful decade? How far back do you have to go? USA is in a state of perpetual warfare, can anyone not agree? The USA is the Satan of the modern world, and the goals it can not reach militarily it will try to reach through political or financial warfare.
Do I believe what I just wrote? no.
Just as little as I believe assassinations should be a source of national pride.
It is a sick world. Do you want to shoot it out or reason it out?
05-03-2011, 00:12
Veho Nex
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
The USA is a renegade in foreign politics. The blood toll on every dollar is immense. When was the last time USA had a peaceful decade? How far back do you have to go? USA is in a state of perpetual warfare, can anyone not agree? The USA is the Satan of the modern world, and the goals it can not reach militarily it will try to reach through political or financial warfare.
Satan of the modern world, because we as a country are so inherently evil that every one of our achievements is another country's blemish.
Also, look up a list of any Major power and find a decade where there was some sort of conflict going on. Find me one power who has had a decade of peace in the last 250 years.
05-03-2011, 00:29
Shibumi
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
I guess it is kind of endearing when you get flamed for something you yourself followed up with
Quote:
Do I believe what I just wrote? no.
What was that old slogan of the US education system? "No child left behind"?
I think the US would do a lot better waging war on bad education. I am sure a lot less would be killed, and who knows, it might even do some good!
05-03-2011, 01:14
spmetla
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
He was a bad dude, I'm glad he's finally been killed. I'm also happy in the manner it was done instead of some missile strike it allowed us to ensure we knew who we killed.
His burial was more than what he deserved, no dragging him through the streets beating the corpse with shoes here.
RIP to all the innocent dead on his account or from our pursuit of him.
Cheers to the Navy Seals!
05-03-2011, 01:31
tibilicus
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Moral of this saga- America ALWAYS wins..
05-03-2011, 02:09
Major Robert Dump
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
While it is easy to focus on the bad things a person has done, we must not forget Bin Laden the Father, Bin Laden the brother, Bin Laden the dancer, and Bin Laden the baker of tastey goods. Everyone has their trying times, and he had no shortage of his. In the end, he was just a man.
Growing up surrounded by Indonesian house servants who wash your balls and let you impregnate them is not an easy life. OBL showed some extra character above others of his kind, for when he got one pregnant he did not send the Shia woman back to her family to be murdered, but rather he murdered her himself. He was a man who solved his own problems.
Let us also not forget that through scientific experimentation and trial and error, OBL helped perfect a method of beheading (front right to back left), carefully avoiding the spinal cord, that ensured the victim stayed alive for the entire ordeal until ultimately dying of lack of oxygen, drowning on blood or bleeding to death. Gone were the days of terrifying, quick beheadings. OBL gave us something that lasted several minutes. While most people may not want to give credit where credit is due, one thing is for certain -- the victims sure noticed!
OBL could also cut a rug. He loved to dance, especially with other men and young boys. While some may call it homosexual, it was not gay because love was not involved. In fact, the term "superman-ing hoes" actually started in the moutnains of Pakistan on thursday night, where it was originally called "superman-ing chai boys." Man, the guys lined up for the gang rape always got a kick out of that one, especially when OBL would do a little jig afterwards. Good times.
And let us not forget the loving father. To show that he was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, he tried to talk his young sons into being suicide bombers. What a selfless man, for if those two died, he would only have 33 sons left! When those two sons said no, he tried to tempt them with tastey home baked cupcakes, and they still said no. Some people are just disrespectful to their fathers I guess, but he loved them anyway, just as much as the other sons he had with his secret 15 year old wives. I mean, to take in a nubile 15 year old and protect her, cuddle her, beat her and leave her to rot in a shack raaising kids all alone while he went around the world playing terrorist -- imagine how much worse off she could have been!
So yeah, laugh all you want, people. OBL may have been a "bad guy," a "meanie," and a "tourorist"(thanks W), but while you all celebrate his death, he is rocking out in heaven with Liberace and Freddy Mercury. The last laugh is definitely his.
05-03-2011, 02:28
Louis VI the Fat
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Thank you, MRD, for bringing some nuance and subtlety to this thread. Before celebrating yesterday's succes, one ought to bear in mind the many different roles and the difficult life of Osama. :bow:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
For the sake of some other perspective:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just a few weeks ago
Bin Laden threatens France
Al-Qaeda leader says in audio tape hostages will die if country does not pull out troops from Muslim lands.
The leader of al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, has called for the withdrawal of French troops from Muslim lands in exchange for the release of hostages, in an audio message.
Referring to French hostages being held in Niger, the speaker on the tape, who sounded like Bin Laden, says their release depended on moves by their own government.
He says France will pay dearly for its policy in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
"President Nicolas Sarkozy's refusal to remove his forces from Afghanistan is nothing but a green light for killing the French hostages," Bin Laden says in the recording, broadcast on Al Jazeera on Friday.
"We repeat the same message to you: The release of your prisoners in the hands of our brothers is linked to the withdrawal of your soldiers from our country."
This is the second tape that Bin Laden, believed to be hiding in the mountainous border areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan, has released an audio recording attacking French policy and linking the French presence in Afghanistan to the kidnapping of its nationals in Niger.
Seven foreigners, including five French nationals, were kidnapped in Niger in September, with the group's north African wing Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) claiming responsibility.
AQIM also claimed responsibility for two Frenchmen found dead last week after a failed rescue attempt in Niger, but the group did not say how the men died.
Following the kidnappings last year, an AQIM spokesman, Salah Abi Mohammed, said in an audio message: "We inform the French government that the mujahedeen will later transmit their legitimate demands."
The September kidnapping was an escalation of hostilities between AQIM and France.
AQIM killed 78-year-old Frenchman Michel Germaneu last July after French commandos took part in a failed raid to free him.
'You have the right to remain silent, anything you say etc' :beam:
Go yanks! :cheerleader:
05-03-2011, 03:43
PanzerJaeger
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump
While it is easy to focus on the bad things a person has done, we must not forget Bin Laden the Father, Bin Laden the brother, Bin Laden the dancer, and Bin Laden the baker of tastey goods.
:iloveyou:
05-03-2011, 04:23
ajaxfetish
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
The leader of al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, has called for the withdrawal of French troops from Muslim lands
So where would all the French troops go? They clearly couldn't remain in France.
EPHRATA, Wash. – Ephrata Middle School teacher Gary Weddle vowed on September 11, 2001 to stop shaving until Osama bin Laden was caught.
On Monday, after almost ten years, he finally shaved off his lengthy beard.
KREM 2 News covered this story back in 2003, when he had not shaved for almost two years.
At the time Weddle said, "Everyday I'm reminded that there's terrible tragedies in the world and this isn't the first and it won't be the last."
The school’s principal, Jill Palmquist, honored him on Monday and gave the following speech to the students:
Ephrata Middle School would like to take a few moments today to honor and recognize a very unique individual who is among us on a daily basis.
On September 11th 2001, Gary Weddle came to school and told his science students that in support of the United States Military and for the freedoms that America stands for, he would not shave until Osama Bin Laden was captured or killed.
CR
05-03-2011, 05:13
Strike For The South
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
OBM, much like Che Guevarra, fought US imperialism, or so some say.
The USA is a renegade in foreign politics. The blood toll on every dollar is immense. When was the last time USA had a peaceful decade? How far back do you have to go? USA is in a state of perpetual warfare, can anyone not agree? The USA is the Satan of the modern world, and the goals it can not reach militarily it will try to reach through political or financial warfare.
Do I believe what I just wrote? no.
Just as little as I believe assassinations should be a source of national pride.
It is a sick world. Do you want to shoot it out or reason it out?
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.
Sometimes you need to crack a few skulls. That's simply the way the world works, one can have reservations but you sound like a blinded college libreal whose spent to much time trying to pretend he's smarter than everyone else simply due to the fact he took a dissenting opinoin
Critical thinking skills, use them
05-03-2011, 05:27
Louis VI the Fat
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
The more details have emerged, the more I marvel at the quality of the operation. So much was well done: the intelligence was obviously excellent. The choice for and flawless execution of the risky, difficult direct engagement over the much easier missile. The funeral at sea - all of the other options are more problematic, I think. A firefight that killed all of the right people, none of the US ones, and no collateral damage. The operation was done quickly and 'quietly', in-and-out like Frodo sneaking straight into Mordor. Awesome.
~~o~~o~~<<o:cheerleader:o>>~~o~~o~~
Obama looked remarkably confident last Friday. Very defiant in his mockery of Donald Trump, almost smug. I wonder how much he knew already. Was he aware already the nature of his presidency was about to take a decisive turn, a complete game changer?
This can't be beat for pr. I already relish in the one-liners Obama can use againts his critics, againt next year's opponents. I do hope Obama does not get too carried away when he visits New York later this week. He shouldn't milk this for all it's worth. He should just win a re-election with it.
This is a triumph for the United States of America, for our soldiers and intelligence operatives, and for the president as well. But it is not quite the triumph that it would have seemed if bin Laden had been captured a decade ago, because those 10 years have taught us that we didn’t need to fear him and his rabble as much as we did, temporarily but intensely, in the weeks when ground zero still smoked.
They’ve taught us, instead, that whatever blunders we make (and we have made many), however many advantages we squander (and there has been much squandering), and whatever quagmires we find ourselves lured into, our civilization is not fundamentally threatened by the utopian fantasy politics embodied by groups like Al Qaeda, or the mix of thugs, fools and pseudointellectuals who rally around their banner.
They can strike us, they can wound us, they can kill us. They can goad us into tactical errors and strategic blunders. But they are not, and never will be, an existential threat.
This was not clear immediately after 9/11. On that day, they took us by surprise. They took advantage of our society’s great strength — its openness and freedom, the welcome it gives to immigrants and the presumption of innocence it extends. And in the wake of their attack, we did not know what they were capable of, or how they might follow up their victory.
Now we know. We know because bin Laden is finally dead and gone, but in a sense we knew already. [...]
Day after day, hour after hour, we learned that we were strong and they were weak.
Excellent thoughts indeed.
~~o~~o~~<<o:cheerleader:o>>~~o~~o~~
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxfetish
So where would all the French troops go? They clearly couldn't remain in France.
Ajax
:wink:
I believe such niceties as ten million Muslims living in France don't mean to the terrorists that Frenchmen in Muslim countries oughtn't be blown up. AQ made good on that Bin Laden's promise to attack Frenchmen in the Maghreb. Although completely dwarfed by 9-11, to me this is not only about settling an ancient score. The seven dead Frenchmen of last Thursday's attack have not yet been buried. Lord only knows how stretched and tenuous the link between that, between AQ in the Islamic Maghreb with OBL is, but it is there. Osama is still a figurehead, right up until his death he was still releasing tapes announcing dead Frenchmen, and making good on that promise.
Dozens of other countries throughout Europe, Africa and Asia have similar stories.
This is, and should be, all about 9-11. But it is also more. It is not just an assassination without a fair trial. We are not celebrating just a cold blooded murder. This is about an active mass murderer who got stopped right in his track.
Quote:
PARIS, April 30 (Reuters) - An explosion that killed 15 people in Marrakesh was triggered by a remote control device, not a suicide bomber as previous reports suggested, France's interior minister said in an interview published on Saturday.
The blast on Thursday ripped through a popular cafe overlooking Marrakesh's Jamaa el-Fnaa square at lunchtime on Thursday. Western security analysts attributed the attack to Islamist militants bent on ruining Morocco's tourism industry."Contrary to what was being said earlier, there was no suicide bomber," Claude Gueant told weekly newspaper Le Journal du Dimanche. "Somebody dropped a bag on the ground and the bomb was detonated remotely."
The bomb contained nails, ammonium nitrate and a high explosive called TATP that was also used in a series of bombings on the Paris underground system in 1995, he said.
"The toll for now is 15 dead of which seven French people and about 10 injured including two very badly wounded."
France has been on high alert for a terror attack over the past year after Islamist militants took five French nationals hostage in the Sahel region of Africa and al Qaeda chief Osama Bin Laden singled out France in an audio recording.
Stringent anti-terror laws have helped to avoid an attack on French soil since the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks in the United States. But militants are increasingly targeting French assets abroad, particularly in Africa.
Al Qaeda's north African branch released messages this week from four French hostages it kidnapped last September in Niger calling for France to withdraw its troops from Afghanistan -- repeating Bin Laden's call. [ID:nLDE73Q05S] http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...73T02520110430
I think I went to that place on my trip to Morocco. It's crowded, always packed. Lots of tourists and locals mingle there. They knew exactly what they were targetting.
Now I'm trying to see the bigger picture here, but I somehow fail to come up with bigger insights about some AQ murderers who kill French tourists for having tea with their local Muslim friends. Even when I bear in mind all of Osama's political ramblings - so recognisable because they are indistinguishable from those of stoned fifteen year olds getting their first rebel haircut; even when empathisisng how Osama suffered as a young Palestian boy by the hands of Israel; even when sharing his anger that all those white girls at Oxford humiliated him by not immediately dropping on their knees to wash his balls - even when bearing all that in mind, I just fail to come up with much regret over his death.
Call me insensitive, or lacking deeper insight.
05-03-2011, 06:03
a completely inoffensive name
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
...
05-03-2011, 06:21
Strike For The South
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
You are parroting my veiws back to me, IDK what you are getting at other than wanting to rant
I took most issue with the line "reason it out or shoot it out"
As if it were that simple
05-03-2011, 06:41
a completely inoffensive name
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
...
05-03-2011, 06:44
Strike For The South
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
i am trying to say that i am just annoyed by your insistence to label people who dont like the celebrating as "college liberals" when a comparison of the arguments shows a 99% similarity. i hinted at this earlier but you just replied "im complicated damn it."
Can a man not reach his nadir in peace?
Even Spielberg had Hook
05-03-2011, 07:01
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
It's good for this man to die, and it's ok to be proud that we finally killed him in pursuit of justice for 9/11, but cheering on the act of death/murder itself is disgusting. I don't care if that is how the world works and I don't care if Americans are no more civilized than the Roman's cheering on their favorite gladiators as they move in for the kill, it's still disturbing to wave flags and feel happy because a life has been taken. People should be regretting that we couldn't try him in a court of law and then execute him, not having tears of joy because they put one in his head. I mean, that would have been impossible becuase he obviously fought back (and used a woman as a shield, that coward).
Bah. It is right, I think, to feel joy that this sick murderer is dead. Less people will be dead by him, and he has received justice for his crimes.
How can it be wrong to feel happy such a man is dead? How can it be wrong to wave the flag when a man who did his utmost to destroy this nation (though he never came close to an existential threat) has been defeated?
Any trial would be a farce and give his followers yet more opportunities to attack in order to demand his release. It would have meant more dead innocents. I am not sad in the least.
Violence is not always bad; a person being killed is not bad when it is a cowardly murderer being killed, when lives are saved because of that.
CR
05-03-2011, 07:01
Lemur
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
[D]id you know that the new Osama could be reaching puberty right now because we failed to realize that militant Islamic terrorism goes beyond one man?
Actually, if you take history as a guide, movements such as Al Qaeda rarely survive the death of a charismatic leader. So this really does mean something, no matter what you existentialist impulses tell you as you smoke your clove cigarettes in a beatnik cafe.
Al Qaeda is not an organization that commands massive resources. It doesn’t have a big army. It doesn’t have vast reservoirs of funds that it can direct easily across the world. [...]
History teaches us that the loss of the charismatic leader - of the symbol - is extraordinarily damaging for the organization. It is very difficult to keep such an organization together, particularly in the absence of great power backers.
In the case of al Qaeda, this is a virtual organization held together by its message and the inspiration it provided. A large part of that inspiration was bin Laden. Ayman Zawahiri may have been the brains behind the outfit, but he did not excite people. When people volunteered for jihad, they were volunteering to be bin Laden’s foot soldiers, not Ayman Zawahiri’s or Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s. The loss of bin Laden’s personality is hugely important because it was so much part of al Qaeda’s appeal.
In addition, we must remember that the death of bin Laden is not occurring in a vacuum. The Arab Awakening has already crippled the basic rationale of al Qaeda.
05-03-2011, 07:26
a completely inoffensive name
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
...
05-03-2011, 07:29
Fragony
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
Cheering I could stomach. Chest-thumping? Not so much.
"Yeah! OBL is dead! USA, USA! We're #1!. (Pay no mind to the trillions of dollars, Constitutional costs, thousands of American soldiers' lives, and countless lives in occupied lands spent)"
Not really much to be proud of
Couldn't agree more, although the cheering is pretty embarrassing as well. If I was a terrorist I'd lol@that, mission ackomplished
05-03-2011, 07:36
a completely inoffensive name
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Actually, one more post just because I still like you guys and want to share some cool content with you. Here is a picture of Obama and his team watching the raid live as it was happening. https://i.imgur.com/tjRP1.jpg
I thought I'd contribute to these dicussions... by pointing out that this guy ended up looking a bit like Bin Laden...
Also, ACIN, that shot of the political bigwigs is fascinating - the intense concentration of Obama must only be a fraction of the anxiety they all felt.
05-03-2011, 08:59
Hax
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
^ so true
Quote:
Couldn't agree more, although the cheering is pretty embarrassing as well. If I was a terrorist I'd lol@that, mission ackomplished
Too true.
05-03-2011, 09:49
Furunculus
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
"Osama Bin Laden is Dead"
Awesome news, i look forward to wikileaks part deux where some hairy US spec-ops guy tea-bags the osama before slotting him.
05-03-2011, 12:13
Greyblades
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
You know I think I gotta agree with strike, crazed rabbit, etc on this one, you yanks have been after this individual for 10 years and you finaly found him afer a decade of hell in the middle east I think you deserve your celebrations. Still you realy should have only captured him and put off the execution untill september 11.
05-03-2011, 12:32
rory_20_uk
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
The head of the CIA was about to be replaced. If I were in that position, I'd want to get the guy on my watch (with all the attached glory that brings) rather than wait a few more months.
He was never going to be taken alive. Trying him in a court would prove very, very messy for oh so many reasons. Shot in the chest and in the head - sounds like one in the firefight and then another one afterwards to be sure.
~:smoking:
05-03-2011, 12:44
Lemur
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
I've got some more constructive things to do than to participate in a discussion that results in everyone I talk to calling me a "college liberal", beatnik or what have you.
I know I was kidding, and I rather suspect Strike was as well, since "kidding" is pretty much his home address. Figured the clove ciggies and the beatnik cafe would tip you off. Apologies for any late-night offense.
I should have included further details to make my stab at humor more obvious, something about your beret and your participation in feminist performance art. Maybe elliptical insults about your pencil goatee and your penchant for reading Camus. I never know precisely how absurd to get.
05-03-2011, 12:45
Greyblades
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
The head of the CIA was about to be replaced. If I were in that position, I'd want to get the guy on my watch (with all the attached glory that brings) rather than wait a few more months.
He was never going to be taken alive. Trying him in a court would prove very, very messy for oh so many reasons. Shot in the chest and in the head - sounds like one in the firefight and then another one afterwards to be sure.
How would it be messy? If I remember correctly he was guilty as sin's less conservative twin brother. The only thing I could imagine becoming messy would be finding a jury that wouldnt try to lynch him he second they enter court.
05-03-2011, 12:46
Banquo's Ghost
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
The one thing that I find dubious is the tenuous claim that somehow the Guantanamo detainees contributed useful intelligence. This seems a convenient claim, but highly unlikely.
Pretty much everyone in Gitmo has been out of the loop for some time. Someone who has evaded capture for as long as bin Laden is highly unlikely to keep couriers around who could be compromised by people captured by the USA. This is elementary school counter-intelligence and whatever else bin Laden was, he was not an amateur. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that anyone in Guantanamo had knowledge of people like couriers and their names to share.
One suspects this was really informed by clever intelligence work on the ground and careful infiltration of networks, the ISI and/or observations of known al Qa'eda operatives in the field. This detailed and painstaking work should be commended, not obfuscated through implying Guantanamo sources were of any use.
05-03-2011, 12:52
Banquo's Ghost
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
How would it be messy? If I remember correctly he was guilty as sin's less conservative twin brother. The only thing I could imagine becoming messy would be finding a jury that wouldnt try to lynch him he second they enter court.
I know it's easy to miss in our modern world, but the USA still operates their justice system (in the main) on the basis that someone is innocent until proven guilty. To arrest bin Laden would have been to require a fair trial - which as you note, might have been challenging. In addition, the attempts by lunatic followers to force his "release" would have been costly to innocent lives. Therefore better to give him what both the Americans and he wished - a swift, unmessy (save for the bed linens) execution in "battle".
Not the idealistic thing to do, but a lot less mess.
05-03-2011, 12:55
rory_20_uk
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
How would it be messy? If I remember correctly he was guilty as sin's less conservative twin brother. The only thing I could imagine becoming messy would be finding a jury that wouldnt try to lynch him he second they enter court.
OK...
First off: Jurisdiction. The Hague? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? USA?
Second: getting a jury that isn't biased - in any country
Third: evidence that stands up in court. Most is probably inadmissible. His acts are so extreme that what if he were to plead insanity?
Fourth: sentence. Would anything but death be sufficient? Not all jurisdictions do that.
Fifth: length of trial. It could turn into a circus, and take years.
Sixth: type of trial. A nice military kangaroo court would hardly help future international standing.
I agree that anyone in Cuba is well past their sell-by date. Where he was wasn't even built when they went in there. But it's an easy claim to make and right about now people will believe anything. A clever political ploy to limit the damage that not closing the place could cause. To protest about it now is going to be very difficult.
~:smoking:
05-03-2011, 15:04
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. ...
I always did enjoy the bard of Baltimore. What a charming cynic!
05-03-2011, 15:10
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Actually, if you take history as a guide, movements such as Al Qaeda rarely survive the death of a charismatic leader. So this really does mean something, no matter what you existentialist impulses tell you as you smoke your clove cigarettes in a beatnik cafe....
A fair point. AQ was, in many ways a "coalition of the willing" that coalesced around Bin Laden. They may well splinter into a much less coherent group. Though that would make continued extirpation efforts more difficult, it would also limit their total threat potential.
05-03-2011, 15:37
drone
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Brigadier General Webb is playing Farmville. :yes:
05-03-2011, 17:19
Strike For The South
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
I always did enjoy the bard of Baltimore. What a charming cynic!
I'm fully aware of the man I quoted
I figured the esteemed backroom didn't need me to hold their hand through every refrence I make, of course times being what they are....
05-03-2011, 17:54
gaelic cowboy
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
A fair point. AQ was, in many ways a "coalition of the willing" that coalesced around Bin Laden. They may well splinter into a much less coherent group. Though that would make continued extirpation efforts more difficult, it would also limit their total threat potential.
He was like a figurehead monarch or the Leader from the Simpsons basically groups all over the place gained press and funding by invoking his name however the majority never met him or anyone even remotely connected to him. Broadband Jihad is what were dealing with here and it will likely be impossible to get rid of, maybe we need an Islamic version of angry birds for web enabled radical muslims to give em summit to do other that downloading the terrorist cookbook from rapidshare.
05-03-2011, 19:08
Viking
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
I'm fully aware of the man I quoted
I figured the esteemed backroom didn't need me to hold their hand through every refrence I make, of course times being what they are....
You'll get kicked out of uni one day, I fear. ~;)
05-03-2011, 19:40
Don Corleone
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
I'm not exuberant, as I had imagined I would be. I am very, very glad my children no longer have to share the planet with that murderous, dehumanizing, misogynistic bag of puss. And as Lemur and others have related in excellent fashion, the viper of Al-Queda has been defanged. Yes, Islamic militancy will continue, but it will exponentially less effective in the years to come. Beyond the cult of personality OBL brought to Islamic Terrorism, many of you have missed his second, only slightly less beneficial gift to the jackals of the terrorist world: He was the conduit of funds/exchange of communication to the Saudi, et. al., financial sponsors of all of this mayhem.
When Leon Panetta talked about "a startling amount of actionable intelligence", I strongly believe that chief among that is a names list of the boys back in the Kingdom coughing up for all of this. Were I a Saudi wife-beather, funding Wahabist lunatics to try to ease the pressures at home, I would be wetting my bed on a nightly basis, especially given the current political clime of the Middle East. Al-Queda has always been only half the problem... their support network, which we could not penetrate, has been the other half. First, I imagine we picked up at least some directly actionable intelligence yesterday. But secondly, the great-qualifier, the one man who stood in both worlds and could tell the Saudi sheikhs which bomb-throwers were real and which ones were CIA plants (and vice-versa) is gone. They must now either accept that this link can and will be breached (leading to their capture) or they must sever it. Either way, those who pursue freedom come out ahead.
And I am very, very proud of our military, our intelligence services, and yes, our President, of whom I have the highest praise. He made many diffficult decisions over the past few weeks, and did so with a jackass taunting him on international media at every turn. I may not always agree with the man's politics, but I give a heartfelt salute to our Commander in Chief, who earned the title.
But none of this raises to the level of exuberance or joy. Why?
I guess even though Bin_Laden got what he had coming to him in a much more merciful way then he deserved, my friend Jim Greenleaf didn't... and I won't/can't equate their two deaths. Jim was so much more, and his death, a true loss, is not validated or felt less painfully because this flyspeck of humanity has been removed.
But I certainly welcome the cheering in others. Make merry for me.
05-03-2011, 19:43
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
I'm fully aware of the man I quoted
I figured the esteemed backroom didn't need me to hold their hand through every refrence I make, of course times being what they are....
I was simply complimenting your choice.
05-03-2011, 19:48
Strike For The South
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
I was simply complimenting your choice.
Well then my new thread sounds insane
Mea Culpa, I'm seeing things that aren't their
05-03-2011, 21:42
Greyblades
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Hmm... Ive seen alot of these images of a dead osama floating on google's image search and found this image while searching the net, I gotta say while it isnt exactly 100% convincing me I realy got to wonder, where did the first image come from?
Its probably just that the image is faked and not one of the actual images taken by the US SEALs.
05-03-2011, 21:45
Rahwana
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
so, there's a possibility OBL is still alive....
05-03-2011, 22:04
Ronin
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
Hmm... Ive seen alot of these images of a dead osama floating on google's image search and found this image while searching the net, I gotta say while it isnt exactly 100% convincing me I realy got to wonder, where did the first image come from?
Its probably just that the image is faked and not one of the actual images taken by the US SEALs.
that image has been floating around the net for a very long time.
some moron in a tv station or newspaper picked it up yesterday and started circulating it.
now people are using it as "proof" that the US is lying.....the US government hasn´t released any photos yet.
05-03-2011, 22:08
Lemur
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahwana
so, there's a possibility OBL is still alive....
Anything is possible. The sun could be made of cheese. It is overwhelmingly likely, however, that OBL is dead.
05-03-2011, 22:12
Askthepizzaguy
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Anything is possible. The sun could be made of cheese.
*devises plan to bake the largest pizza of all time using the sun's own heat... and cheese
05-03-2011, 22:17
drone
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
*devises plan to bake the largest pizza of all time using the sun's own heat... and cheese
But how are you going to deliver it? :inquisitive:
05-03-2011, 22:19
Askthepizzaguy
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
But how are you going to deliver it? :inquisitive:
Deliver it?
Gravity, my friend. It's so large that you're delivered to it, not the other way around.
05-03-2011, 23:26
Azi Tohak
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
that image has been floating around the net for a very long time.
some moron in a tv station or newspaper picked it up yesterday and started circulating it.
now people are using it as "proof" that the US is lying.....the US government hasn´t released any photos yet.
I hope they don't. I don't know what would be gained by releasing a brutal picture of some old bearded guy with half a face. If you believe he's dead, it will be Osama himself. If you don't, then you'll claim it is some innocent old dude who happened to get REALLY unlucky. Keep the images, keep the names of those who participated, and give me a Call of Duty level where I can pretend I get to infiltrate his compound.
05-04-2011, 02:28
Tellos Athenaios
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
Deliver it?
Gravity, my friend. It's so large that you're delivered to it, not the other way around.
Won't work: we're doomed to orbit it, until the pizza becomes a red pizza giant and it will have incinerated us all.
Sigh. Sometimes gun owners make the best case for gun control. So many firearms safety rules broken... :shame:
1. Never fire a weapon into the air.
2. Never fire a weapon while riding a motor vehicle.
3. Never fire a weapon indiscriminately into a wooded area with no clear backstop.
Hilarious video nonetheless. Thanks for sharing. :laugh4:
05-04-2011, 06:47
a completely inoffensive name
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
...
05-04-2011, 08:06
econ21
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Also, I got called a liberal in a derogatory way by my friends all the time ...
Off topic, coming from Europe where the word is not used in the same derogatory way, I would recommend you wear the label with pride. It's word with great connotations - Western liberal values, liberty etc. Who wants to be illiberal?
Ask your friends why they hate freedom. :wink:
05-04-2011, 08:17
a completely inoffensive name
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
Off topic, coming from Europe where the word is not used in the same derogatory way, I would recommend you wear the label with pride. It's word with great connotations - Western liberal values, liberty etc. Who wants to be illiberal?
Ask your friends why they hate freedom. :wink:
You try explaining the difference between 18th-19th century liberalism with modern day terminology to a bunch of high school kids that would rather brag about their K/D ratios on CoD than actually have a conversation.
05-04-2011, 08:19
Askthepizzaguy
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
You try explaining the difference between 18th-19th century liberalism with modern day terminology to a bunch of high school kids that would rather brag about their K/D ratios on CoD than actually have a conversation.
I would; I tried to get a degree in that but I ran out of money.
05-04-2011, 10:26
Papewaio
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
I'm still looking for a headline along the lines of:
Obama Bined Laden.
05-04-2011, 10:56
Hosakawa Tito
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Hope the last thing he saw was the US flag patch on the Seal's right shoulder, then the double tap muzzle flash. Ding dong the :skull: is dead.
05-04-2011, 11:32
Shibumi
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
Hope the last thing he saw was the US flag patch on the Seal's right shoulder, then the double tap muzzle flash. Ding dong the :skull: is dead.
It was not a double tap. First shot went through the eye, second shot was when he was downed, to assure he was dead. By the looks of it, a pretty well executed assassination.
you must need an electron microscope to see this guy's penis.
yes...Bin Laden being dead is good news...but damn.
05-04-2011, 13:43
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Pappy: Nice one.
ACIN: Don't worry, eventually we'll get down to people being awarded degrees FOR their comparisons of CoD and MAG clan interactions WITH the idealism movement of the enlightenment. No doubt it will be argued that the 12-year-old gamer IS the flowering of that noble philosphy.
05-04-2011, 13:58
gaelic cowboy
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
I'm still looking for a headline along the lines of:
ACIN: Don't worry, eventually we'll get down to people being awarded degrees FOR their comparisons of CoD and MAG clan interactions WITH the idealism movement of the enlightenment. No doubt it will be argued that the 12-year-old gamer IS the flowering of that noble philosphy.
Unfortunately, that day will not come fast enough to save my philosophy degree.
05-04-2011, 19:24
Xiahou
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Actually, one more post just because I still like you guys and want to share some cool content with you. Here is a picture of Obama and his team watching the raid live as it was happening.
Am I the only one that took note of the fact that they were all HP laptops? :book:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
This video is so full of win, I had to share:
And for the nomination of best parody of a Little Mermaid song on the topic of Bin Laden's death, I submit the following.
05-04-2011, 20:50
Lemur
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Am I the only one that took note of the fact that they were all HP laptops?
Once you get the adware and trialware off 'em, pretty good laptops. That said, you would think the top echelon of our military and executive branch would all have Alienware or Voodoo. I mean, come on.
05-04-2011, 21:12
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Fox is pathetic. It reeks of a continued attempt to subliminally influence people.
Must be a tough day for Fox. Indeed, a tough decade:
'3000 Americans killed in the worst attack on American soil in US history'
Fox / GOP / Bush: 'Let's use public sentiment to spend two trillion dollar of tax money in a confused mix of private and public interest'
Obama: 'I vow to bring the perpetrators to justice'
If I had the vote, the election of 2012 would be over already.
So Fox is crap and ABC, a liberal network is better? You make me laugh Lemur. :laugh: :juggle2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Ah yes, the Chinese Communist/Jihadist axis of something or another. Don't you hate it when atheist totalitarians and Islamists team up? I think the Freemasons and the Illuminati are mixed up in it too.
Hmmm maybe because in the long run China is benefiting from us screwing around in the Middle East? Ever hear of how broke we are? :inquisitive:
05-04-2011, 21:19
Tellos Athenaios
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Once you get the adware and trialware off 'em, pretty good laptops. That said, you would think the top echelon of our military and executive branch would all have Alienware or Voodoo. I mean, come on.
Alienware? Voodoo? Surely not. A Thinkpad, maybe.
05-04-2011, 22:44
Hosakawa Tito
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
It was not a double tap. First shot went through the eye, second shot was when he was downed, to assure he was dead. By the looks of it, a pretty well executed assassination.
Thanks for the eye witness account. I didn't feel any remorse when the Wicked Witch of the West melted either, go figure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Once you get the adware and trialware off 'em, pretty good laptops. That said, you would think the top echelon of our military and executive branch would all have Alienware or Voodoo. I mean, come on.
Don't know about Voodoo, but Alienware has sold out to Dell. Yeah, they're toast.
05-04-2011, 23:04
drone
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
Alienware? Voodoo? Surely not. A Thinkpad, maybe.
I think Lenovo is a no-go with the US government at this point. ~;) They probably have a government-rate bulk deal with HP, so they get business lappies with no crapware.
The really cool hardware is going to be with the SEAL team on the other end of the link. :yes:
05-04-2011, 23:37
Tellos Athenaios
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
I think Lenovo is a no-go with the US government at this point. ~;) They probably have a government-rate bulk deal with HP, so they get business lappies with no crapware.
HPs are as much made in China as the rest of them, and software wise I would be astounded if the govt admins actually bought OS software licences at all through HP for the laptops. I'd expect them to have some kind of Enterprise type licence directly with Microsoft so they can make a pre configured image of what they need and deploy those in bulk on their hardware...
Quote:
The really cool hardware is going to be with the SEAL team on the other end of the link. :yes:
Dell make some military laptops, actually. Hardware wise actually pretty slow kit (as little moving parts as possible and low thermal envelope required) wrapped in layers of protective stuff.
05-05-2011, 00:11
Husar
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
You'd think those NWO types in the white house etc. would have nuclear powered laptops with ultrasuperdupercores that they are deliberately keeping away from us normal people to prevent us from advancing.
On the actual topic of bin Laden, I guess what makes me sad about this, however "justified" this may be, is that America, the country that is trying to say to people around the world, "hey, look, we're civilized and we don't want to harm you, we just play by the rules" and the country that wants to teach Afghans to drag their neighbor to court instead of shooting him, is now telling the world "hey, we think it's perfectly fine to just shoot someone if you just hate them enough", the latter part obviously being up to individual interpretation.
That's not to say bin Laden wasn't absolutely guilty, scummy and evil in a way but we also dragged Milosevich and others to court, even the Nazis were tried in a court after WW2, but somehow so many seem to think in this case it's appropriate to purposefully ignore everything we usually see as holy, everything we hope other countries will finally introduce into their justice system and just say "screw it, let's just shoot him!" To me this screams the guy has won, he found the button that makes Americans throw away all their standards and celebrate a murder, because if he wasn't sentenced by a judge and it wasn't necessary to shoot him to save someone directly, then that's all this was. :shrug:
That said, apart from him being gone now, what have we gained with this? I'm not a big fan of "symbolic victories", that's just the short form of "we didn't actually gain anything but want to celebrate anyway", it would be more worthy of celebrations if we could now finally do away with all the anti terror laws and regain all the freedoms we gave up/had to give up because of this guy and his "life project" that seems to have survived him easily though.
05-05-2011, 00:44
Shibumi
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
Thanks for the eye witness account. I didn't feel any remorse when the Wicked Witch of the West melted either, go figure.
Eye witness report? It is how I understood it from Swedish and American press.
Some American media indeed reported it as a double tap, meaning two shots fired in quick succession, pretty standard practice in the military to assure a kill, or at least assure some serious injury is done.
As I understood it however, OBM hid behind a woman (brave). DEVGRU however are not the worst marksmen around, and they simply shot him in the eye with one well aimed shot. When the body was on the floor, the assassination was completed with a shot in the heart, for good measure - or rather to make 100% sure the guy was dead.
No, not an eye witness report, just what I have been able to gather from the sources available. I might very well be wrong, but regardless I am sure we will find out in time. It is not like the US has anything to hide (hardy har har).
Why does it matter? Well, saying the two shots was a double tap make it seem way less callous and cold blooded.
Am I against the assassination? Not really, he had it coming.
I would have preferred other solutions though. It is a bit too vigilante style to send troopers on assassination missions on another nations ground. I get why the US did it, but do not be surprised if it will have a backlash effect.
05-05-2011, 01:14
Xiahou
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
even the Nazis were tried in a court after WW2
Yes, after WW2. Do you think anyone would have given it a second thought if someone managed to successfully assassinate Hitler during the war? In combat, the enemy is a legitimate target until they surrender. If it comes to light that Bin Laden threw up his hands and was exclaiming "I surrender!" when he was shot you might have a point- otherwise, I don't see the issue.
05-05-2011, 01:32
Shibumi
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Yes, after WW2. Do you think anyone would have given it a second thought if someone managed to successfully assassinate Hitler during the war? In combat, the enemy is a legitimate target until they surrender. If it comes to light that Bin Laden threw up his hands and was exclaiming "I surrender!" when he was shot you might have a point- otherwise, I don't see the issue.
If it is a war, you should treat the prisoners by the Genevé convention.
If it is not a war, you should not assassinate civilians.
I just wish the US could make up their minds, instead of going with whatever is easiest (and most immoral) at the moment.
05-05-2011, 01:47
jirisys
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
On the actual topic of bin Laden, I guess what makes me sad about this, however "justified" this may be, is that America, the country that is trying to say to people around the world, "hey, look, we're civilized and we don't want to harm you, we just play by the rules" and the country that wants to teach Afghans to drag their neighbor to court instead of shooting him, is now telling the world "hey, we think it's perfectly fine to just shoot someone if you just hate them enough", the latter part obviously being up to individual interpretation.
That's not to say bin Laden wasn't absolutely guilty, scummy and evil in a way but we also dragged Milosevich and others to court, even the Nazis were tried in a court after WW2, but somehow so many seem to think in this case it's appropriate to purposefully ignore everything we usually see as holy, everything we hope other countries will finally introduce into their justice system and just say "screw it, let's just shoot him!" To me this screams the guy has won, he found the button that makes Americans throw away all their standards and celebrate a murder, because if he wasn't sentenced by a judge and it wasn't necessary to shoot him to save someone directly, then that's all this was. :shrug:
That said, apart from him being gone now, what have we gained with this? I'm not a big fan of "symbolic victories", that's just the short form of "we didn't actually gain anything but want to celebrate anyway", it would be more worthy of celebrations if we could now finally do away with all the anti terror laws and regain all the freedoms we gave up/had to give up because of this guy and his "life project" that seems to have survived him easily though.
There is nothing to celebrate when a life ends, no matter what life it is. It just shows how savagely human we are, no other animal has a thirst of blood like this. It makes me sad that so many people in the US actually celebrate this horrendous bazar of human rights violations. Weren't they supposed to be inalienable? What made Osama any different than a common killer? I doubt he ever killed someone, which is even worse. Like instead of doing the Nuremberg trial, they would have been shot. Sure, it was said he planned the deaths of thousands of people. But didn't the US government do the same with civilians in Central America, in South America? They sure did support the dictatorial savagism of my country. The amount of life is what matters, not whatever they represent or what we make of their meaning.
In any case, there was no true victory, not when a life ends, not when Osama was killed.
I'm not saying it was right for him to kill all those people, I'm saying it's not right to kill anybody at all, especially when there is no need, and hate is what drives to it.
The only death I approve of is that of the tree of evil, not of the people that lie within it.
Side Note: I just compared TWC's thread (which they insulted bullied us moderates and proclaimed our ideas to be phoney), to this enlightened conversation with a much better tone. It's a shame.
~Jirisys ()
05-05-2011, 02:20
Hosakawa Tito
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Double tap is SOP training for all police & military to ensure you're not killed by a wounded dying perp. There are so many versions of what happened, how many do you think were interviews with those who were really there? The correct answer would be zero. We'll never know the name/names of those involved, who shot who, or anything else save what the people in charge want us to know. The "facts" have been changing since the incident.
How many hostages do you think the jihadists would take and behead on videotape during the years of an Osama trial? They've killed far more Muslims than Westerners, and haven't been sqeamish about that at all, so the possible list of victims for their snuff films would be endless. So, how many more innocent victims are you prepared to offer up for this mass murderer? The ivory tower idealism of a "fair trial" doesn't work too well in an ongoing global guerilla war that will last for decades, especially when the jihadis don't play nice and civilized. The best most pragmatic choice for all was suicide by Seal. We just brought a little justice to the Al Queda mascot, that's all he's been since he was flushed out of Tora Bora. It ain't over, not by a long shot, but it puts the others on notice.
05-05-2011, 02:26
jirisys
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
Double tap is SOP training for all police & military to ensure you're not killed by a wounded dying perp. There are so many versions of what happened, how many do you think were interviews with those who were really there? The correct answer would be zero. We'll never know the name/names of those involved, who shot who, or anything else save what the people in charge want us to know. The "facts" have been changing since the incident.
How many hostages do you think the jihadists would take and behead on videotape during the years of an Osama trial? They've killed far more Muslims than Westerners, and haven't been sqeamish about that at all, so the possible list of victims for their snuff films would be endless. So, how many more innocent victims are you prepared to offer up for this mass murderer? The ivory tower idealism of a "fair trial" doesn't work too well in an ongoing global guerilla war that will last for decades, especially when the jihadis don't play nice and civilized. The best most pragmatic choice for all was suicide by Seal. We just brought a little justice to the Al Queda mascot, that's all he's been since he was flushed out of Tora Bora. It ain't over, not by a long shot, but it puts the others on notice.
I doubt the unnecesary and simbological death of OBL would be much different from capturing him, forcing him into submission. What is here is an unnecesary bloodshed. Fueled by hate and remorse.
~Jirisys ()
05-05-2011, 02:49
Askthepizzaguy
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
I don't know about you guys, but if Osama was trying to 'surrender' I would have shot him anyway. The dude is a mass murdering maniac. What if he was wired with grenades and just wanted to take out a cluster of American soldiers before he died, in one final act of idiocy?
Better safe than sorry. Tap tap, no more Laden.
And if that makes me a bad man, I'm a VERY BAD MAN and wouldn't have it any other way.
05-05-2011, 04:13
jirisys
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
I don't know about you guys, but if Osama was trying to 'surrender' I would have shot him anyway. The dude is a mass murdering maniac. What if he was wired with grenades and just wanted to take out a cluster of American soldiers before he died, in one final act of idiocy?
Better safe than sorry. Tap tap, no more Laden.
And if that makes me a bad man, I'm a VERY BAD MAN and wouldn't have it any other way.
Preventive death? I could say that for about half of the people in the streets of my country, doesn't mean I'm going to kill them out of fear.
Specially if I don't really know anything about what they carry.
~Jirisys ()
05-05-2011, 04:42
ajaxfetish
Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by jirisys
Preventive death? I could say that for about half of the people in the streets of my country, doesn't mean I'm going to kill them out of fear.
I'm sorry the streets of your country are so dangerous.
