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Re: One more try - UK referendum
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Originally Posted by
Greyblades
We did, that's what the conservatives won for and they're now resisting this tooth and nail. They cant be trusted to keep the status quo any more than the alternatives so we must remove the option. This referendum is how we do that.
We want the EU politicians out and they wont allow a next time.
That's the rationale for why any intention to leave must mean taking action now. Ask why we should leave though, and the reasons make less sense.
Hence the fears about being flooded with immigrants because the EU imposes them on us. Except that the EU has no power to do any such thing as we're not in the Schengen zone, and any wave of immigrants is the decision of Downing Street, not Brussels. Or the fear that Turkey's accession will mean a wave of unsuitable EU members entering the UK. Except, as Furunculus points out in the Turkey thread, Turkey wasn't accepted back in the days before Erdogan's lunacy and IS, and indeed he blames the EU for not including Turkey as IHHO they should. Perhaps the two of you should have a chat to straighten things out, as one of you blames the EU for possibly accepting Turkey in the future as a reason for Brexit, while the other blames the EU for not accepting Turkey as a reason for Brexit.
Never mind about the mutually contradictory reasoning, the common theme is blaming the EU and thus necessitating Brexit. Once the UK is outside the EU, the EU will no longer be able to force the Schengen rules on the UK, which the UK isn't subject to anyway. Nor will it be able to introduce a wave of Turks into EU countries. Even though it's decided not to back when Turkey was rather more acceptable than now. I wonder when arguments about the euro will crop up, which the UK isn't subject to either.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Red herring: the schingen zone just stops a nation from having border checks. The right to live and work in the UK by EU citizens was laid out in the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2000 (i assume act).
Yep most of our problems stem from our successive governments attempts to steer towards integration with the EU Brussels didnt exactly dissuade them from adopting thier faulty ideals to fit in with the club but the fault does indeed lie with the politicians charging towards the cliff like so many lemmings. We gave them many chances but the political class appears too invested in the EU to undo it on their own so we must remove thier end goal and shake things up.
They couldnt play nice so now they cant play at all. To hell with thier tantrums and threats.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
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Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Those suggestions would work, they are last resorts in the situation where all other alternatives have and will fail, and continued persistance is untennable which is what we are in with the EU.
Untenable is too grim a word for current situation in the UK. And it is too conclusive to claim all other alternatives have failed. Presenting situation like the country is on the brink of the abyss and only a step back will save it is the rhetoric employed by both sides. Should the voting go either way I doubt if anything serious will ensue. Unless the Scots will start a to-do again in case a leave vote prevails. Which is serious.
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Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Did you read the article carefully? It says:
The Ipsos MORI poll for the Evening Standard newspaper shows Leave with 53 per cent of the vote and Remain on 47 per cent cent.
Leave was up 10 per cent on the previous poll while Remain was down 10 per cent.
It means there is a growth of leavers, but the overall situation is still precarious. The 6% difference leaves the result still doubtful.
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Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Red herring: the schingen zone just stops a nation from having border checks.
Like there were ever border checks even before Schengen was introduced. Moving between European countries you could sometimes fail to notice you have crossed into in a different state already.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
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Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Not being part of the schingen area means we can still check people's passports when they try to enter the country. It does not change the fact that being part of the Eu means we cannot refuse EU citizens from immigrating here.
Some people need to educate themselves on the difference beteen border controls and immigration controls and also need to an attitude adjustmen.
Seems I misread part of your statements, my mistake. A lot of people on the interwebs that talk about it in the context of Brexit discussions have no idea what it actually means. Turkey isn't going to become a member state anytime soon. Even if Erdogan leaves tomorrow and Turkey becomes a paradise with rainbows and fluffy unicorns overnight, which is unlikely, it could still easily take 6-8 years before their entry for the plain reason that it's a lengthy process.
As for the current wave of asylum seekers that has reached the EU...even if the majority of those people get residence permits, they will not have unqualified freedom of movement in the EU since they are not yet EU citizens. That would take many more years, for instance in the Netherlands you have to be legally resident for 5 years before you can naturalize. And the idea that those migrants will hop over to the UK en masse a soon as they're able is just fantasy, plain and simple.
As for the current batch of workers that have already migrated to the UK:
1) all the data shows that EU migrants contribute more in taxes than they receive, and are actually more often employed than natives
2) I don't see that there's a problem at all...but even so, British politicians are to blame for the scale of the "problem", not the EU
3) it's hardly fair to demand that the EU gives up one of its core achievements (freedom of movement) to counter the consequenses of British failures in policy
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
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Originally Posted by
Gilrandir
Untenable is too grim a word for current situation in the UK. And it is too conclusive to claim all other alternatives have failed. Presenting situation like the country is on the brink of the abyss and only a step back will save it is the rhetoric employed by both sides. Should the voting go either way I doubt if anything serious will ensue. Unless the Scots will start a to-do again in case a leave vote prevails. Which is serious.
Well untennable depends on if the EU army becomes a thing, or the lisbon treaty loses it's opt out option. A while ago I'd say we'd be safe as the conservatives dont like giving up power, then Boris rebelled and the chances of teh conservatives surviving in one piece approached zero. A Labour/SNP coalition would basically make that it certainty.
I think unsustainable is a better descriptor, there are only so many bailouts and charity drives before the economies of the EU becomes too sunken and socially there is only so many immigrants people will put up with taking in before they start rebelling, perhaps not violently but we're already seeing nations going against Brussels. The way I see it the economic bailouts and migrant waves are not going to stop unless the EU's leaders change direction, which all signs point to not likely, and the longer it goes on the union is going to slump and decay until it is finally abandoned by the member countries. Point being I think we'll be better off getting off now than waiting for it to collapse, and we've lost the option to leave if things go sour in the short term.
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Did you read the article carefully? It says:
The Ipsos MORI poll for the Evening Standard newspaper shows Leave with 53 per cent of the vote and Remain on 47 per cent cent.
Leave was up 10 per cent on the previous poll while Remain was down 10 per cent.
It means there is a growth of leavers, but the overall situation is still precarious. The 6% difference leaves the result still doubtful.
Sorry, wrong independant link:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7075131.html
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The survey of 2,000 people by ORB found that 55 per cent believe the UK should leave the EU (up four points since our last poll in April), while 45 per cent want it to remain (down four points). These figures are weighted to take account of people’s likelihood to vote. It is by far the biggest lead the Leave camp has enjoyed since ORB began polling the EU issue for The Independent a year ago, when it was Remain who enjoyed a 10-point lead. Now the tables have turned.
Even when the findings are not weighted for turnout, Leave is on 53 per cent (up three points since April) and Remain on 47 per cent (down three). The online poll, taken on Wednesday and Thursday, suggests the Out camp has achieved momentum at the critical time ahead of the 23 June referendum.
Differential turnout could prove crucial. ORB found that 78 per cent of Leave supporters say they will definitely vote – describing themselves as a “10” on a scale of 0-10, while only 66 per cent of Remain supporters say the same.
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Like there were ever border checks even before Schengen was introduced. Moving between European countries you could sometimes fail to notice you have crossed into in a different state already.
Would have been a heck of a thing to get through the channel tunnel without noticing!
Point being they dont need the schingen agreement to move into british houses and take british jobs, they can do that with the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations which keeps us from refusing them.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
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Originally Posted by
Kralizec
Seems I misread part of your statements, my mistake. A lot of people on the interwebs that talk about it in the context of Brexit discussions have no idea what it actually means. Turkey isn't going to become a member state anytime soon. Even if Erdogan leaves tomorrow and Turkey becomes a paradise with rainbows and fluffy unicorns overnight, which is unlikely, it could still easily take 6-8 years before their entry for the plain reason that it's a lengthy process.
As for the current wave of asylum seekers that has reached the EU...even if the majority of those people get residence permits, they will not have unqualified freedom of movement in the EU since they are not yet EU citizens. That would take many more years, for instance in the Netherlands you have to be legally resident for 5 years before you can naturalize. And the idea that those migrants will hop over to the UK en masse a soon as they're able is just fantasy, plain and simple.
As I said: "give it time".
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As for the current batch of workers that have already migrated to the UK:
1) all the data shows that EU migrants contribute more in taxes than they receive, and are actually more often employed than natives
...yeah to the detriment of the natives, they're coming in faster than we can employ or house them and thier lower expectations in standard of pay and living is helping them outcompete the locals.
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2) I don't see that there's a problem at all...but even so, British politicians are to blame for the scale of the "problem", not the EU
The scale of the problem is proporitionate to the number of immigrants, and right now we cant put a cap on them to keep it sane, and that happened because our politicians started repeating the EU mantra, and that happened because they're idiots and/or greedy.
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3) it's hardly fair to demand that the EU gives up one of its core achievements (freedom of movement) to counter the consequenses of British failures in policy
Yes it is, we should leave.
It was a great achievment when you could maintain the borders controls with non members, when they started to fail the core achievment became a flaw.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
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Originally Posted by
Greyblades
We have the option to remove a Cameron 2.0 and undo what he does, we don't have that option with the EU comission, not in a peaceful manner anyway. And with the comission hanging around his neck Cameron 1.0 or anyone else in power is limited in what they are capable of changing to make things better, even if they want to.
EU commissioners are appointed by the nation states. So the UK can easily remove one, and it is up to the other countries to remove theirs. Commissars work on behalf of the countries that appoint them.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
And we have little influence over the others, we are but 1 in 28 despite our size making us more like 1 in 12, our economy 1 in 5, and our strength 1 in 2. If 15 of them agree to block us we are powerless to do anything.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
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Originally Posted by
Beskar
EU commissioners are appointed by the nation states. So the UK can easily remove one, and it is up to the other countries to remove theirs. Commissars work on behalf of the countries that appoint them.
That's not true, AFAIK. Commissioners are supposed to work for the benefit of all the member states. A state cannnot unilaterally withdraw "their" commissioner once he or she is in office. Allthough in practice, if he/she has lost favor it would generally be easy to persuade the president of the Commission to sack him or her.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
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Originally Posted by
Greyblades
You are digging yourself into a deeper hole with these pollls. This one was published ON JUNE 10, the previous one - TODAY. So you see that the number of the leavers has actually decreased - on June 10 it was 55% vs 45%, now it is 53% vs 47%. Anyway, it is too close to predict anything.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
And we have little influence over the others, we are but 1 in 28 despite our size making us more like 1 in 12, our economy 1 in 5, and our strength 1 in 2. If 15 of them agree to block us we are powerless to do anything.
You think you're as strong as 27 other EU people/countries? :inquisitive: :laugh4:
edit: Terrible assassination, not exactly a way to defend democracy. :no:
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
I claim victory for Britain.
Do you have a nuke?
No nuke no victory, you cant have one. That's the rules that I just made up, and I'm backing it up with this bomb, that was lent from the National Nuclear Security Administration.
I love Eddie Izzard.
The only one of you who could actually fire back at the same scale as us at this moment of time are the French so I stick to my assessment of us having strength equivilent of 1 out of 2.
Yes, I have a nuke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...eapons_sharing
You forget three things:
1) We also still have US bases, including a hospital, we may get the codes faster than you think...or the US will obliterate you afterwards.
2) IF Russia doesn't feel threatened once you launch something in the direction of Poland and obliterates you first...
3) Poland has a missile shield.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Rest in Peace, Jo Cox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
And we have little influence over the others, we are but 1 in 28 despite our size making us more like 1 in 12, our economy 1 in 5, and our strength 1 in 2. If 15 of them agree to block us we are powerless to do anything.
A few problems with that:
- The UK is much more influential than you think in Europe, and often works together on issues with the Netherlands, the nordic countries, and assorted other countries depending on the subject.
- the parity you describe only applies to votes in the Council of ministers. And if it's an issue governed by qualified voting, it has to be 55% of the countries which represent at least 65% of the EU's population
- there's only real parity between the UK and countries like Malta in cases where voting in the Council has to be unanimous. And small countries are very careful in using their veto powers when the numbers are stacked against them. Under your logic, Germany could never be as influential as it is often perceived to be.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
As the vote comes closer, civil war breaks out on the Thames:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahjewel...nbB#.il8VDbgGk
As for the fishermen, has anyone ever considered that they may be overfishing the waters without EU regulations? Much like it happened in the Mediterranean? Didn't the Somalian pirates mostly come up due to EU countries overfishing in Somalian and other countries' waters?
If so, cry me a river...
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Kind of like the spanish are doing under EU regulations? Coming into our sea, stealing our fish...
On a side note that this sort of thing happens is what I really like about british politics, it holds a sweetspot in political passion between the extremes of tukish punchups and the american snorefest.
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Originally Posted by
Husar
Yes, I have a nuke:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...eapons_sharing
You forget three things:
1) We also still have US bases, including a hospital, we may get the codes faster than you think...or the US will obliterate you afterwards.
2) IF Russia doesn't feel threatened once you launch something in the direction of Poland and obliterates you first...
3) Poland has a missile shield.
Wiki link:
Quote:
However, since all U.S. nuclear weapons are protected with Permissive Action Links, the host states cannot arm the bombs without authorization codes from the U.S. Department of Defense
1) If it got to the point that nato fell to bits and britain went to war with germany those bases would be long gone, as would those nukes.
2) Russia would sit and laugh as we killed eachother.
3) Missile shield fired in poland has a longer way to go to reach western germany than a trident missile fired from the north sea. Plus the missile shield has a chance to fail; if the russians fired 50 missiles at western europe and NATO fired 50 back, russia would lose missiles in transit while all 50 USA missiles got through.
The russians would lose in a straight up fight but if NATO didnt fire back they would win because a percentage of thier missiles getting through would be all but ensured, and against someone who cannot fire back victory is assured. So if Britain fired all 220 of her nukes (or at least the 58 that are currently attached to missiles) straight at poland's shield it is guarenteed that some percentage gets through, and precident tells us that 2 strikes can be all it takes to kill a non nuclear nation's will to fight.
The potential power my friend, between us and everyone else save france, is overwhelmingly british. But of course I am not serious in desiring a voting weight of 50% in the EU comission. It's just semi plausable exaggeration to emphasise the disparity between the balances of voting power in the EU and practical power out of it.
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Originally Posted by
Kralizec
A few problems with that:
- The UK is much more influential than you think in Europe, and often works together on issues with the Netherlands, the nordic countries, and assorted other countries depending on the subject.
I didnt say we weren't influential I said we do not have the direct influence proporitional to our size, strength and power in the commission, which is the most important part of the EU government.
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- the parity you describe only applies to votes in the Council of ministers. And if it's an issue governed by qualified voting, it has to be 55% of the countries which represent at least 65% of the EU's population
The issue is the commission has sole control over what gets voted upon. If Britain wants to put forward legislation and cannot gain majority in the commission it wont even be put forward for consideration by the EU parliament or anywhere else in the government.
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- there's only real parity between the UK and countries like Malta in cases where voting in the Council has to be unanimous. And small countries are very careful in using their veto powers when the numbers are stacked against them. Under your logic, Germany could never be as influential as it is often perceived to be.
The germans are very good at getting the other nations to agree with it, but it is still an absurdity that a joint bill from the 14 largest countries in the union can be kept from being voted on by the 15 smallest countries banding together, even though the 13 largest overwhelm the 15 smallest by a titanic amount in everything from population to money to power.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Kind of like the spanish are doing under EU regulations? Coming into our sea, stealing our fish...
On a side note that this sort of thing happens is what I really like about british politics, it holds a sweetspot in political passion between the extremes of tukish punchups and the american snorefest.
If the Spanish are doing that, then I'm right and regulations should be tighter. Mandatory GPs modules that turn the boat around once it leaves the designated fishing zone, for example. :whip:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Wiki link:
1) If it got to the point that nato fell to bits and britain went to war with germany those bases would be long gone, as would those nukes.
2) Russia would sit and laugh as we killed eachother.
3) Missile shield fired in poland has a longer way to go to reach western germany than a trident missile fired from the north sea. Plus the missile shield has a chance to fail; if the russians fired 50 missiles at western europe and NATO fired 50 back, russia would lose missiles in transit while all 50 USA missiles got through.
The russians would lose in a straight up fight but if NATO didnt fire back they would win because a percentage of thier missiles getting through would be all but ensured, and against someone who cannot fire back victory is assured. So if Britain fired all 220 of her nukes (or at least the 58 that are currently attached to missiles) straight at poland's shield it is guarenteed that some percentage gets through, and precident tells us that 2 strikes can be all it takes to kill a non nuclear nation's will to fight.
The potential power my friend, between us and everyone else save france, is overwhelmingly british. But of course I am not serious in desiring a voting weight of 50% in the EU comission. It's just semi plausable exaggeration to emphasise the disparity between the balances of voting power in the EU and practical power out of it.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
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Originally Posted by
Greyblades
I didnt say we weren't influential I said we do not have the direct influence proporitional to our size, strength and power in the commission, which is the most important part of the EU government.
The issue is the commission has sole control over what gets voted upon. If Britain wants to put forward legislation and cannot gain majority in the commission it wont even be put forward for consideration by the EU parliament or anywhere else in the government.
The germans are very good at getting the other nations to agree with it, but it is still an absurdity that a joint bill from the 14 largest countries in the union can be kept from being voted on by the 15 smallest countries banding together, even though the 14 largest overwhelm the 15 smallest by a titanic amount in everything from population to money to power.
Well:
1) If the Green party wants to put forward legislation in Britain and it never passes, should the Green party leave Britain?
2) Is it not unfair that the Queen doesn't get a higher percentage of votes based on how much land she owns in Britain? And since she is ultimately the owner of all of Britain, could one not argue that she should get 100% of the votes? Or more generally, should rich people get more votes than the poor? And isn't population already a relatively big factor in how influential a country is in the EU? You keep giving hypothetic examples, but do you also have real ones that could be discussed or are you going to vote based on a fantasy theory?
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
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Originally Posted by
Husar
1) If the Green party wants to put forward legislation in Britain and it never passes, should the Green party leave Britain?
The green party can still put it forward even if they dont have a significant majority, that's the point.
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2) Is it not unfair that the Queen doesn't get a higher percentage of votes based on how much land she owns in Britain? And since she is ultimately the owner of all of Britain, could one not argue that she should get 100% of the votes? Or more generally, should rich people get more votes than the poor? And isn't population already a relatively big factor in how influential a country is in the EU? You keep giving hypothetic examples, but do you also have real ones that could be discussed or are you going to vote based on a fantasy theory?
I have mentioned I have a double standard when it comes to nations and indiviudals correct? And that my recent appreciation for the plight of the gerrymandered does make me believe we are already in a position where the rich get more votes than the poor.
My point is that whether you count votes by population or money or power we do not hold the vote share we should where it matters: We only have one in 28 where the argument can be made we deserve 4, 7 or even 14. That this union is driving towards becoming a federal government and has no plans to amend this is a reason to leave in itself. One of may reasons I'm voting out.
We dont need the EU. The EU and our own politicians have made a titanic effort to make us not want the EU either.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
France needs the EU, UK doesn't. First tanks now banks, thank you Germany, the childles mother is the best thing ever
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
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Originally Posted by
Greyblades
The green party can still put it forward even if they dont have a significant majority, that's the point.
How often does such legislation pass? I.e. where is the use of that if the chance that it actually passes is around 1% or so?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
I have mentioned I have a double standard when it comes to nations and indiviudals correct? And that my recent appreciation for the plight of the gerrymandered does make me believe we are already in a position where the rich get more votes than the poor.
My point is that whether you count votes by population or money or power we do not hold the vote share we should where it matters: We only have one in 28 where the argument can be made we deserve 4, 7 or even 14. That this union is driving towards becoming a federal government and has no plans to amend this is a reason to leave in itself. One of may reasons I'm voting out.
But that is only in one body of the EU and we seem unable to actually figure out how powerful it really is compared to the EU parliament. Of course you will now say it's the most important body of the EU and basically decides everything by itself, but I have my doubts about that, just like I do about the usual argument that the EU only works for the corporations. Because so do a lot of national governments and it doesn't even explain all the punishments and legislation the EU dished out against certain corporations. For example several tech fiants from the US are under constant scrutiny by the EU, discriminatory business practices by online shops are being reviewed, misleading advertisement on water and regarding other food was banned and so on. The idea to privatize all basic water supply seems terrible though, I'll agree with that. The point is that it's not nearly as one-sided as Brexiteers make it out to be. The EU is what the members make of it, much like a national government. In both cases you have to make concessions and fight corporate influence. :shrug:
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Originally Posted by
Greyblades
We dont need the EU. The EU and our own politicians have made a titanic effort to make us not want the EU either.
We'll see about that once you have left.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
I need to be in a better mood to deal with that video beskar right now I almost mistook it for a repeat of that patrick stewart skit over the human rights court.
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Originally Posted by
Husar
How often does such legislation pass? I.e. where is the use of that if the chance that it actually passes is around 1% or so?
How often does legislation get voted upon by MEP's that dont get approved by the Comission? Around 0% or so?
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But that is only in one body of the EU and we seem unable to actually figure out how powerful it really is compared to the EU parliament. Of course you will now say it's the most important body of the EU and basically decides everything by itself, but I have my doubts about that, just like I do about the usual argument that the EU only works for the corporations. Because so do a lot of national governments and it doesn't even explain all the punishments and legislation the EU dished out against certain corporations. For example several tech fiants from the US are under constant scrutiny by the EU, discriminatory business practices by online shops are being reviewed, misleading advertisement on water and regarding other food was banned and so on. The idea to privatize all basic water supply seems terrible though, I'll agree with that. The point is that it's not nearly as one-sided as Brexiteers make it out to be. The EU is what the members make of it, much like a national government. In both cases you have to make concessions and fight corporate influence. :shrug:
It's the most important because without it's consent nothing gets voted on; it is the only body that can present legislation for vote, the parliament can only say yes or no it cannot alter or rewrite anything the comission puts out.
It's performance thus far might not be as tyranical as some believe but it is much less representative of the people and is basically impossible for the people to hold it to account if it doesnt present what the people wants it to. Britain's House of Parliament despite it's faults is a better democratic body than it is.
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We'll see about that once you have left.
Finally lost hope Husar?
I hope the shock will be enough to reform it, I really do.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
The long answer:
I give my consent that you may govern in my name, and assent to be bound by the actions you take in my name as if they were my own.
However, the authority to govern that you possess in consequence is never to be leased out to a third party, and I will not deem those actions as were they my own.
What it boils down to is who ‘us’ is.
Am I a European? Why yes, how could I not recognise, respect, and admire the nations that have in so many ways shaped what is the UK today. Do I not desire the peace and harmony among peoples that is bred by cooperation and collaboration between us? But of course!
Why do I not love the EU? Because I celebrate the differences, and believe that – post Mastricht – the peoples of Europe have become enslaved by conformity. Arguably, the eurozone periphery has become enslaved by poverty too, given the unwillingness of participating nations to surrender to the logical consequence of their shared currency; economic and political union.
It is a technocratic machine that has no understanding of the concept of Demos, and in attempting to assume the mantle of Kratos, is failing to be both representative of and accountable to the people[s] of Europe.
The crucial feature of indirect democracy is the perception of representation, the collective trust in shared aims and expectations that allows the people to put their destiny in the hands of another, safe in the knowledge that even if ‘their’ man doesn’t get the job then the other guy will still be looking after their best interests.
The manner in which this trust is built is the knowledge that you and ‘he’ have a history of cooperation, and that your respective families likewise have a shared social and cultural history of cooperation, all of which allows you to trust that when adversity strikes ‘he’ will act in a predictable and acceptable way.
This cannot be achieved when the aims and expectations of the peoples of Europe are so divergent that every policy response is a protracted argument resulting in a lowest-common-denominator solution. It is a recipe for indecision, aimless triangulation, and unhappiness. It is the ultimate example of the principle-policy puzzle.
Back to first principles. What do I want?
The supremacy of Parliament, and a Supreme Court that acts only to make sure that Parliament acts in accordance with the laws that it makes.
I want a happy and content Europe, that allows the UK to focus its energy to the best of our ability on ensuring the rest of the world is likewise happy and content.
A low taxation/low regulation society, able to continue with our Negative Liberty bent, happily between the extremes of the continent and the US.
An interventionist Foreign Policy, with both the means and will to see it employed in the pursuit of our enlightened national interest.
We have the principle. How does this translate to a problem?
The interference of the EU and its supporting bodies is breeding discontent at home, and encroaching on our fundamental sovereignty.
In forcing the smaller nations of Europe to march in lock-step towards ever-closer-union it breeds discontent that dissipates our focus on the wider world.
Eurozone convergence with consensus managed by QMV will see our taxation and regulation ‘harmonised’ upwards, and our society more beholden to Positive Liberty.
The EU fails to understand that an interventionist Foreign Policy requires direction and purpose, the decision to spend blood and treasure cannot be ‘calibrated’.
We have the problem. What is the solution?
For the UK, a Europe that is interested in cooperation and collaboration, through trade and other means, via the intergovernmental method.
For the nations of Europe, to choose individually an identity that fits their aims and expectations, whether that results in more integration or less.
For us to continue with a society that is more individual than collective, a liberal democracy that celebrates eccentricity rather than merely tolerating it.
For Britain to avoid supranational constructs that bind both our capability and our will to intervene, and pursuing instead bilateralism and multilaterlism.
Hold on, you say. This does not require us to leave the EU, surely?
No, the UK could determine the application of the ECHR via subsidiarity and the margin for appreciation… if the EUropean zeitgeist rejected judicial activism.
No, Sweden and Poland could de-jure back out of euro-accession, and Denmark Schengen membership… if the EU zeitgeist respected national autonomy.
No, the UK could continue within the EU as a fundamentally individualist liberal democracy… if the EU zeitgeist respected national autonomy.
No, the nations of Europe could continue to cooperate and collaborate effectively through NATO… if the EU zeitgeist respected national autonomy.
But, none of these things happen. For the EU is a stasis-machine, trapped by its inability to represent the interests of its people[s], and so it must further remove itself from accountability to those same people[s]. It cannot move forward, and it cannot move backward, all it can it do is breed resentment in its compromise.
What is needed is rupture.
To paraphrase text more familiar to the discussion of climate change: “that the EU has been chaotic and quasi stable long before the euro and schengen crises arrived, and that the real argument is whether eurosceptic input is disruptive enough to re-position Europe into a new and wholly desirable quasi-stable state.”
What is needed is an EU that does not force non-eurozone nations to constantly guard against encroachments on their fundamental sovereignty, thus freeing the eurozone to integrate to whatever degree necessary to provide stable and legitimate governance. What is needed is an EU that does not force new and existing member states to march up in lock-step with every integrationist measure, regardless of whether they would willingly choose it or otherwise. Achieving this will move Europe beyond lowest-common-denominator solutions, to a place where selective collaboration through shared interest produces a stronger outcome.
A core able to integrate, a periphery happy to cooperate.
Do we have to leave to enable this rupture? No, perhaps it is enough that we vote to remain on a wafer thin margin, but, what cannot happen is a decisive 60/40 vote to remain. For the good of Europe.
For the avoidance of doubt, things that don’t matter:
Straight bananas. Symptom, not cause.
Strasbourg. Symptom, not cause.
Immigration. Insomuch as I care, it is only because HMG is forced to unfairly discriminate against Commonwealth countries.
EU budget. It’s chicken-feed in the grand scheme of things.
These matters are best determined by ‘us’ regardless of whether the ‘us’ is Britons, Poles, Swedes, or a new federal state comprising the regions of France, Germany, Belgium, etc..
Vote leave.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
How often does legislation get voted upon by MEP's that dont get approved by the Comission? Around 0% or so?
What does it matter if the result is usually the same? Seems like nitpicking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
It's the most important because without it's consent nothing gets voted on; it is the only body that can present legislation for vote, the parliament can only say yes or no it cannot alter or rewrite anything the comission puts out.
It's performance thus far might not be as tyranical as some believe but it is much less representative of the people and is basically impossible for the people to hold it to account if it doesnt present what the people wants it to. Britain's House of Parliament despite it's faults is a better democratic body than it is.
Yes, but what your member of the Commission wants can be influenced by who you vote for nationally?
Is Britain such a special snowflake that noone else in the EU every agrees with it or where is the issue?
Doesn't Britain have quite a few exceptions regarding EU membership? How did that ever happen if all the other mean countries are constantly bullying poor little Britain?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Finally lost hope Husar?
I hope the shock will be enough to reform it, I really do.
You're assuming that I ever had the kind of hope you are referring to. Maybe Britain getting out will finally allow the EU to reform.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
if the russians fired 50 missiles at western europe and NATO fired 50 back, russia would lose missiles in transit while all 50 USA missiles got through.
Do yopu realize that those in Russia are old Soviet missiles? Russia would lose half of them at launching and half of the rest would fall in Russia never reaching the goal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Furunculus
The long answer...
These matters are best determined by ‘us’ regardless of whether the ‘us’ is Britons, Poles, Swedes, or a new federal state comprising the regions of France, Germany, Belgium, etc..
Vote leave.
Short reply: What of 'us' the Scots? Vote leave and you will see....
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Do you realize that those in Russia are old Soviet missiles? Russia would lose half of them at launching and half of the rest would fall in Russia never reaching the goal.
Touche.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gilrandir
Do yopu realize that those in Russia are old Soviet missiles? Russia would lose half of them at launching and half of the rest would fall in Russia never reaching the goal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Touche.
I wouldn't be so sure:
USA: https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...n-floppy-disks
Russia: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ze-FRANCE.html
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
I wouldn't be so sure:
You know the saying people love... "Don't fix what isn't broken".
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gilrandir
Short reply: What of 'us' the Scots? Vote leave and you will see....
that's your call, THE Scot's knew this was coming when the scottish [independence] referendum was happening a few years back.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Furunculus
that's your call, scot's new this was coming when the scottish [independence] referendum a few years back.
We will see. Still, I'd like to see polls on Brexit in Scotland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
The Kremlin's new intercontinental ballistic missile will be ready for field trials this summer, according to the Russian news network Zvezda, which is owned by Russia's ministry of defence.
You should find out something on reliability of Russian media, especially state-owned media, and especially Zvezda.
Just think of it: last nuclear explosion test in Russia was taken in 1989, when it was still the USSR. Since then the warheads kept from those times have been rusting on their launchpads.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gilrandir
You should find out something on reliability of Russian media, especially state-owned media, and especially Zvezda.
Just think of it: last nuclear explosion test in Russia was taken in 1989, when it was still the USSR. Since then the warheads kept from those times have been rusting on their launchpads.
I knew you'd say that, but the development of such missiles is probably not a secret.
As for the dates:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_testing
Quote:
Underground tests in the United States continued until 1992 (its last nuclear test), the Soviet Union until 1990, the United Kingdom until 1991, and both China and France until 1996. In signing the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty in 1996, these states have pledged to discontinue all nuclear testing. However, as of December 2013, the treaty has not yet entered into force because of failure to be signed/ratified by eight specific countries. Non-signatories India and Pakistan last tested nuclear weapons in 1998.
I don't think the date of the last test tells us a lot though, especially not about the missiles used to deliver the warheads.
And you conveniently ignored that US warheads are also largely rotting in some bunkers.
While one could argue the US are rebuilding and modernizing their nukes: https://next.ft.com/content/14bcff98...b-fc683b5e52db
This article makes Russia look more ready to use it: http://time.com/4280169/russia-nuclear-security-summit/
Also this: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35845232
Oh yeah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y1ya-yF35g
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
I knew you'd say that, but the development of such missiles is probably not a secret.
Look at this and count how many fakes out of those were published by Zvezda:
http://www.russialies.com/russias-to...ional-edition/
It is likely to spin a story out of nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
I don't think the date of the last test tells us a lot though, especially not about the missiles used to deliver the warheads.
And you conveniently ignored that US warheads are also largely rotting in some bunkers.
I didn't ignore it, I just spoke of things I know. Within the last two years Russia had a string of accidents with their "flying objects", mostly military and mostly planes:
http://www.businessinsider.com/russi...overuse-2015-7
but some with missiles:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6686856.html
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/proton_glonass49.html
So I know that Russian strategic forces are not likely to deliver, so to say.
I didn't hear of accidents with their American counterparts, so I say only what I know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Do I have to remind you of drinking traditions in Russia? (Husar: I knew you would say it).
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Only one idiot actually showed disrespect on this board and he was a 5 post blunder that dissapeared after getting rejected, we arent at the level you say we are quite yet.
Someone else also called the other political side "scum".
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Yes in response to others disrespecting the dead for political points. Kinda appropriate use of the word really.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gilrandir
We will see. Still, I'd like to see polls on Brexit in Scotland.
http://news.sky.com/story/1714132/co...ish-referendum
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
"France needs the EU" Really?
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Yes in response to others disrespecting the dead for political points. Kinda appropriate use of the word really.
Political points like finding far right links in the killer's background? I've seen rightists accusing the liberal left of avoiding uncomfortable facts, so should we avoid these facts just because the right is uncomfortable with him sharing their platform?
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
keep your cool's man, left and right don't exist
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
3 days to go, and as far as exit polls go, the Leave camp is ahead in the polls.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Guardian: Brexit is the only way the working class can change anything
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-eu-referendum
Social Party: Why socialists should leave the EU
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/22495
Message from the Dutch about their recent referendum:
Quote:
DEAR BRITS,
Allow us a minute of your time to tell you an anecdote about democracy in the European Union.
Last April, the Netherlands held a national referendum on the EU Association Treaty with Ukraine. We, the organisers, wanted to have a more direct say in European Union developments, because we are worried about the ongoing and highly undemocratic expansionism of the EU. No government in Europe should be allowed to make far-reaching decisions without a majority consent.
So we set out to do something about it, and thanks to a successful Internet campaign and nearly half a million signatures, we forced our government to hold a referendum.
On April 6, a convincing 61 percent of the Dutch voters said “No” to the undesirable Association Treaty. So was that the end of that? Was democracy saved from the talons of the EU technocrats?
..And then we were ignored
Unfortunately, no. Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, forced by his betters in Brussels, decided to completely ignore the outcome of the referendum. The Dutch voter was shunned by their national leaders, and, once again, democratic voices were muffled by the unelected officials of the European Union.
As the organizers of the Dutch referendum, we are not here to meddle in your national business. Dear Lord no — We’re not Brussels. But we do feel a need to tell you our story. Because democracy matters. And in the European Union – the people’s voices are silenced and shunned.
Read and share our story. Decide for yourself how highly you value the sovereignty of your national democracy. And cast your vote accordingly on June 23rd.
With love,
Your democratic friends from the Netherlands
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
We also voted no to a fargoing europian constitution, they just call it something else and do it anyway. The pvv of Wilders is the only party that wants referenda to be binding, and also want out, biggest party in the polls. The bewildering argument of ignoring the outcome is that people who didn't vote should also be heard, wut. Really ugly all this, it has been sabotaged from the start, reducing places to vote, press ignoring it untill they couldn't anymore. Moral victory is ours but we gained nothing. People who argue that a lot of people voted no just because they can and did that at the expense of the Ukrainians have a point I won't deny that, but there are very good reasons why most voted against it.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Furunculus
A nice map, but still no overall figures.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
The song to sum up British feelings about the EU, to the tune of the EU anthem (Beethoven's Ode to Joy)
https://youtu.be/iAgKHSNqxa8?t=13m55s
F**k you, European Union!
Tally-ho, you f**king pr***s!
We are the United Kingdom!
You can eat our spotted dicks!
That being said,
We're not going to leave you,
Turns out we need you!
Nonetheless,
F**k you, European Union!
It feels good to tell you this!
Poland is depressing,
And there's vampires in Romania.
Spain is far too hot
And where the f**k is Lithuania?
To be fair, Slovenia's lovely,
(We're only kidding, it sucks too!)
But we must admit,
Without these countries
We'd be really screwed!
F**k the European Union,
Even though we must admit,
We would all be bats**t crazy,
If we vote for leaving it!
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
If one man's action is going to change your mind, maybe I can change it back with this one's?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j-Gb8Pk2Pk
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
If one man's action is going to change your mind, maybe I can change it back with this one's?
Does this mean that the killer was indeed doing this in connection with the referendum campaign, rather than this being some kind of baseless anti-leave allegation?
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Who knows, I'm just trying to lure back an Old-labour fan who appeared to be starting to sympathise with brexit before the assassination.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
yay, 48% want nexit, 45% don't. Italy hates the EU even more, Germans aren't very enthousiastic either to my surprise 36% want out.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
How has it been discredited?
We keep getting more and more poor people and social issues, we almost have to shoot even poorer people to keep them from trying to come here while others try to blow us up because they hate us, when will Capitalism solve that?
Your own country wants out of the EU because the EU is too capitalist and doesn't care about the fishermen, no?
Let's see.
USSR.
Cambodia.
North Korea.
Argentina.
Venezuela.
Etc.
Perhaps you can point to a socialist country that has prospered?
Oh and capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty these last thirty years then any other system.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Personally as an American i HOPE the brits leave the EU, it's a rotten structure that needs to topple it's also getting dangerously authoritarian with the EU army proposal that and most British laws are not made by Brits which in fairness is an annoying and utterly idiotic idea how would a guy in Brussels know what the average Brit wants? he doesn't! but its up to the British people. if i could i'd vote leave, the guy on youtube "Sargon of Akkad" made a few good videos on it actually that i won't link here. Now i won't reveal who in the American election i'm putting my vote in for since he's a tad bit controversial! @InsaneApache
Anybody who would argue for a communist government does not understand that communist systems always fall to dictatorship they have before and they always will See "Holodomor" where soviets committed a Ukrainian genocide. I'm rather poor (always have been) i am a working class man and i notice always that the socialists/communists are usually richer than me and more uptight despite "Caring for the working man" Now this isn't true EVERYWHERE but it's certainly evident to me and just seems like a dangerous form of virtue signalling that will lead to death and dictatorship.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
Perhaps you can point to a socialist country that has prospered?
Norway?
Depends on what you call 'socialist' too. The faux-communist countries you listed are not socialist, but there are great many examples of democratic socialism in Europe such as Scandinavian countries and even post war Britain.
Also there is an issue on what you call 'capitalist' too. Since there is the corrupt hypercapitalism in places like the USA where corporates buy the government.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
@Beskar
Adolf Hitler was a nationalist SOCIALIST.
Jus saying he was pretty successful.
Now that's not to say that he was to bad
you know what i'm not gonna continue with this post it'll get me banned
probably.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CupHead5998
Adolf Hitler was a nationalist SOCIALIST.
Jus saying he was pretty successful.
Now that's not to say that he was to bad
you know what i'm not gonna continue with this post it'll get me banned
probably.
I have to be honest, only ignorance on the subject would be responsible for a retort like that. I will show you something.
Do you know North Korea full title is "Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea" - now is North Korea democratic? No it isn't. Is North Korea a republic? No, they have a monarchy. The United States, a nation built on democracy and it is a republic, are they the same as North Korea because North Korea's name? That is what you're currently arguing.
Hitler hated socialism. He was foremost a Nationalist. When he came into power, first things he did was ban the socialists from government, and sent them off to prison camps, and later exterminated them. He saw himself as an antithesis to socialism and capitalism, the "third way", and created a totalitarian regime. The reason for the name was because after WW1, there are effectively two camps, the socialists and the nationalists. His party was an 'experiment' in trying to unite two opposing factions under his banner.
On a side note: "i won't give away who I am voting for in presidental election as he is quite controversial" .. there is only 1 male candidate, Donald Trump.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
And from her constituents' testimonies, Cox believed in that kind of socialism too.
Makes it all the more tragic, people like her are going to among the sort of people we need in power after we leave to make it work.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
Perhaps you can point to a socialist country that has prospered?
Germany, Britain, Norway, Netherlands.
And since you mentioned Argentina, that one was ruined again by a capitalist. Are capitalists proud of kicking people who already lie on the ground?
I still think that a capitalism that is heavily restricted by socialism is probably best until we find and try a system that works better than both, but I guess the world just has to be black and white...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
Oh and capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty these last thirty years then any other system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Povert...ed_States..PNG
That was in the 50s and 60s, since then, not so much.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beskar
I have to be honest, only ignorance on the subject would be responsible for a retort like that. I will show you something.
Do you know North Korea full title is "Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea" - now is North Korea democratic? No it isn't. Is North Korea a republic? No, they have a monarchy. The United States, a nation built on democracy and it is a republic, are they the same as North Korea because North Korea's name? That is what you're currently arguing.
Hitler hated socialism. He was foremost a Nationalist. When he came into power, first things he did was ban the socialists from government, and sent them off to prison camps, and later exterminated them. He saw himself as an antithesis to socialism and capitalism, the "third way", and created a totalitarian regime. The reason for the name was because after WW1, there are effectively two camps, the socialists and the nationalists. His party was an 'experiment' in trying to unite two opposing factions under his banner.
On a side note: "i won't give away who I am voting for in presidental election as he is quite controversial" .. there is only 1 male candidate, Donald Trump.
Hmph Bested me there. However there was a faction running with Hitler that did interpret Socialist part of the message as literal Marxist socialism though, i think his name was Otto if i can recall correctly.
also Hey you guessed right.
didn't mean to come off angry if that's what my post relayed.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Also there is an issue on what you call 'capitalist' too. Since there is the corrupt hypercapitalism in places like the USA where corporates buy the government.
There's world of difference between 'crony capitalism i.e corporatism and real capitalism.
Quote:
And since you mentioned Argentina, that one was ruined again by a capitalist
Argentina was at the beginning of the 20th century the equal of the USA in GDP. A few decades of socialist policies soon put an end to that caper.
Quote:
Are capitalists proud of kicking people who already lie on the ground?
Yes I kick puppys too. :creep:
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
There's world of difference between 'crony capitalism i.e corporatism and real capitalism.
You mean just like there is a world of difference between a socialist in Germany or Britain and the leaders of the communist dictatorships that you mentioned as failures of socialism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
Argentina was at the beginning of the 20th century the equal of the USA in GDP. A few decades of socialist policies soon put an end to that caper.
And then a capitalist came along and socialized his losses to bring the country to its knees once more. Maybe there is a socialist even in the biggest capitalists, just wait until they end up on a losing streak in the big lottery of capitalism and/or see an opportunity to socialize their losses. It's easy to say socialism failed due to the way humans are, but then I'd argue that capitalism devolves into corporatism all the time for the same reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
Yes I kick puppys too. :creep:
*puppies
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
There's world of difference between 'crony capitalism i.e corporatism and real capitalism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
You mean just like there is a world of difference between a socialist in Germany or Britain and the leaders of the communist dictatorships that you mentioned as failures of socialism?
I think this is exactly the point. We could point at extreme examples, then tar everyone with the same brush.
Does InsaneApache as a capitalist want to sell off his mother? Does Husar who believes that people should have a fair wage, want to send people off to gulags? The answer to both of these are no (I hope) and would be silly to suggest otherwise.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Here's the video you've all been waiting for to hate it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
John oliver is a bushist through and through,
and he thinks he can tell Americans what we "need" despite being a Brit who knows nothing of life here other than hollywood.
Now when i say bushist i mean somebody like a clinton or a Jeb bush Trumpism is the newest form of politics, well in america anyway and it seems to have destroyed bernism or well bushism beat bernism. eithey way i already saw that LWT on 8ch
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
You mean just like there is a world of difference between a socialist in Germany or Britain and the leaders of the communist dictatorships that you mentioned as failures of socialism?
And then a capitalist came along and socialized his losses to bring the country to its knees once more. Maybe there is a socialist even in the biggest capitalists, just wait until they end up on a losing streak in the big lottery of capitalism and/or see an opportunity to socialize their losses. It's easy to say socialism failed due to the way humans are, but then I'd argue that capitalism devolves into corporatism all the time for the same reasons.
*puppies
The socialist theorist that I admire most is George Orwell. That's someone who formed his ideas by attempting to live the lives of the oppressed, analysing their position in relation to those who are in power, and coming up with ideas to improve lives. And not ducking any difficult questions that arise from factional politics. His socialism is non-factional, but grimy with sweat.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
Perhaps you can point to a socialist country that has prospered?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
Germany, Britain, Norway, Netherlands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beskar
Norway?
All wrong. The correct answer is China.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Wow you're really into that non existent oppression malarkey aren't you, I don't think you can conjure up the homeless of France as oppressed, Have you even read down and out in Paris and London not once did he mention the homeless as oppressed, he even mentions you become homeless due to the choices you make in life. George Orwell wasn't socialist theoreist at all he even despised socialism as a dogma a route to communism or totalitarianism, went into the Spanish Civil War as an Communist/Socialist and came home with a lot of anarchist ideals the books he wrote such as Animal Farm and 1984 will testify to that.
However George Orwell was undogmatic, and dissaproved of dogmatism in socialism.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
Is anyone going to manually enforce the suspension on Lizardo, or is he going to continue smearing Jo Cox on here?
Ask Putin to send some fans.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Thread bugged out for me unless all of page 9 is gone?
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Does InsaneApache as a capitalist want to sell off his mother?
I tried that but there were no takers. Someone suggested giving her a good ironing might help.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CupHead5998
Thread bugged out for me unless all of page 9 is gone?
It got moved by Beskar to a new thread called Jo Cox.
Anjem Choudary is for Remain and you'd never guess why, the ECHR, got to admire the man's honesty.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...m-perspective/
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lizardo
I like that you trust extremists so much and base your opinion on theirs.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
A great video which draws parallels between the Roman Empire and the pelopennisian war and the ever encroaching EU army to make the case for leaving the EU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRPmXbksPgQ
The beginnings of the EU army are here Germany assumes command of 4 Dutch Battalions aswell the EU special Taskforce which Britain Dedicates a small contigent to already. BF2 anyone
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Concept of "United States of Europe" is not inherently a bad thing.
However, by-passing the democratic process to do it, is.
-
Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beskar
ignorance on the subject
I have to be honest, that is an extremely tame way of putting it.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CrossLOPER
I have to be honest, that is an extremely tame way of putting it.
It is however, unlike you stated by altering the quote, not displaying ignorance on the subject.
Unlike many, who either flock to 'remain' or 'leave', then demonize the otherside, I have criticized both. I find the decision to be difficult due to conflicting personal views. I have also read a lot on the subject. So trying to dismiss one of the least ignorant people on the subject as "ignorant" only reflects poorly on yourself.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beskar
Concept of "United States of Europe" is not inherently a bad thing.
However, by-passing the democratic process to do it, is.
A United States of Europe or as I like to put it the EUSSR, as an idea Is not inherently a 'bad thing' but to implement this concept would take fairly benign and sinister actions, undermining of each European Countries culture language and a lot of people would not just simply accept this it would therefore take genocide, mass killings, re-education, weakening of societal values, oppression, mass immigration etc.
All details can be found in the Kalergi Plan.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beskar
Concept of "United States of Europe" is not inherently a bad thing.
However, by-passing the democratic process to do it, is.
That's the problem.
-
Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beskar
Concept of "United States of Europe" is not inherently a bad thing.
However, by-passing the democratic process to do it, is.
This would be easier to agree with if a lot of people were better educated, but yeah...
You can currently see in Britain what a democratic process can do...
#everythingwasbetterundertheKaiser
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
I hear you, #everythingwasbetterunderCromwell :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beskar
Concept of "United States of Europe" is not inherently a bad thing.
However, by-passing the democratic process to do it, is.
Honestly I am not sure if it is even all that desireable, if it wasnt for the immigration issues and the prospect of membership including those too underdeveloped or culturally incompatible for stability in the EU, this level of european integration would be a pretty comfortable status quo for us. Only problem is, even if those two issues were solved, there's still the incessant drive for further unnecissary and even detrimental integration that we seem to be becoming incapable of keeping in check.
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Re: One more try - UK referendum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beskar
Concept of "United States of Europe" is not inherently a bad thing.
However, by-passing the democratic process to do it, is.
The hollow men. The EU in it's current state is doomed, nobody wants it except those that do. I love simplicity as complexity is too complicated for me, and it seems pretty straightforward to me that there should be a northen-EU. maybe including Germany if the AFD can send the Merkel back to the village of her childhood to raise cows and report it to the owner of the farm if the cow do something wrong, she is perfect for the job she knows how these things work, plenty experience.
It's tragic as some eurocrats are genuinly ideologic I won't doubt their good intention.
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WW2 Veteran's dying wish: "Post my Leave vote"
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Re: WW2 Veteran's dying wish: "Post my Leave vote"
Out of the Orgahs who are UK citizens, who's going to the vote tomorrow?
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Re: WW2 Veteran's dying wish: "Post my Leave vote"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lizardo
Here ya go Frag, someone using someone's death for political advantage. This is the same guy who smeared Jo Cox before her body was in the ground, contrary to Backroom custom, using an alt to do so.
