60 000 people haven't died, that's complete nonsense. Some thousands have died; many before the NATO intervention began. Many are also fighters.
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60 000 people haven't died, that's complete nonsense. Some thousands have died; many before the NATO intervention began. Many are also fighters.
Right, 60,000 is also 1% of the total population - and with constant NATO recon it's likely we would have seen massacres by NTC forces, and Gadaffi was gearing up for massacres anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking
Go back to Feburary and read the news again, Frag. Without intervention it would have been a one sided bloodbath.
Now, if only Europe would get behind Palastinian statehood at the UN, we might actually be able to have friendly relations with the Arab world after 1,400 years.
Even Reuters comferms at least 40.000 by the Red Cross, estimated much much more maybe even over a hundred, check your news-sources yourselve
~ 170 people killed per day for 8 months? No way; the only estimate at 40 000 that I see, is from the NTC. The numbers do not add up.
You will find that on average, the NATO bombing moved the front lines out of the cities and in to the surrounding areas; this because the rebel forces were the best at urban warfare (their home towns).
Even so, non combatants were mainly killed by Gadaffi, and he would have done that even if NATO had no intervened. Not to mention all the other people he has killed over the years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking
So the New Libyan Army assualting toens never killed civilians?
Our justification for the war ended when Gaddafi was paraded alive and then turned up inexplicably dead. Now don't get me wrong, I couldn't care less that he's dead but when we justify intevention with protecting lives that must mean all lives, not just the poeple we like.
Civilians leaving Sirte were checked for weapons and sent on their way, they expected to be shot. Dissenters who stayed inside Sirte were shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ja'chyra
There's the difference.
I can find neither a Reuters message nor a Red Cross communiqué on this. Where did you find those?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
AII
It reminds me of Jonsey's van from dad's army. Only slightly, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
It seems increasingly obvious that the three big players killed in Thursday's battle in Sirte were captured alive and then summarily executed. It seems like that would have been the quentisential moment for the new Libya to demonstrate a commitment to human rights and the rule of law that the old Libya lacked, but as we've seen over and over again, the NTC is more interested in vengeance against real and imaginary enemies than such lofty ideals. It is ironic, though, that both Qaddafi's Libya and now 'free' Libya were founded in summary execution. The leadership has changed, but the bodies of innocents still hung from lamp posts across the country. :shame:
That being said, as an American I could not help but think of the victims of the bombing of Pan Am 103, especially the 35 students from Syracuse University coming home to spend Christmas with their families, when I heard the news. Qaddafi chose to live by the sword, most of his victims did not.
Why are these myths still being repeated as fact?Quote:
Originally Posted by PVC
Much of that 'news' has since turned out to be complete fabrication... baseless propaganda, breathlessly reported.Quote:
Go back to Feburary and read the news again, Frag. Without intervention it would have been a one sided bloodbath.
Like I wrote earlier, I can find no Reuters message or Red Cross statement to this effect. Can you tell us where they are?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
AII
Few pages back, guy called AdrianII posted it, you know him. Must admit that I can't find the red cross part either though might not be true that it's comfirmed, give them a call tomorrowQuote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
There is no real government army, more of a disorganised and ill-disciplined rebel mob. Blaming the leadership is pretty pointless at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
Not only did he gear up for massacres, he actually carrried them out, such as the warehouse massacre outside Tripoli.Quote:
Why are these myths still being repeated as fact?
That was only after they were teleported to the heavens by space aliens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Show me an innocent hanging from a lamppost. Or I could show you the reports of the Loyalists who were executed by the Patriots during the American Civil War.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
As I said, this is how Tyranny ends.
Try thinking of all the Libyan prisoners murdered by Gadaffi in the last few months.Quote:
That being said, as an American I could not help but think of the victims of the bombing of Pan Am 103, especially the 35 students from Syracuse University coming home to spend Christmas with their families, when I heard the news. Qaddafi chose to live by the sword, most of his victims did not.
Exageration, not fabrication, and we now know that the Gadaffi loyalists were enacting a "scorched earth" policy with regards to prisoners, the NTC has already requested international help in identifying the occupants of several mass graves that number in the dozens to the hundreds. This is a regime that regularly indulged in summary execution and mass extermination.Quote:
Why are these myths still being repeated as fact?
Much of that 'news' has since turned out to be complete fabrication... baseless propaganda, breathlessly reported.
Gadaffi makes Saddam Hussain look almost palatable by comparison.
Not if you play your cards right. Some tyrants get to expire peacefully in a New York hospital. It never ceases to amuse me that wannabe dictators don't get this simple rule. Don't they teach it anymore in Tyrant Academy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Personally, whilst understanding the wish for a properly conducted arrest and trial (particularly when expressed with heartfelt condemnation by such leading luminaries of the human rights movement and the Geneva Conventions as Sergei Lavrov of Russia :dizzy2:) the execution of Gaddafi and his son was pretty inevitable. What I find more worrying for the future of the new Libya is that the NTC continued to lie about it - taking lessons from the West on such things already - and the unedifying spectacle of the dictator lying in a meat locker for days so that the crowds can gawp as he rots.
Whilst the USA got an undeserved haranguing from assorted commentators for the quick (and religiously conformist) disposal of bin Laden, there seems to be a limited amount of criticism for an Islamic country treating one of their own vanquished with such contempt. Execution is one thing and to be expected. Parading the dead will diminish the successors somewhat.
On just that theme, Lord Ashdown wrote an interesting piece yesterday where he argues that for Libya, establishing the rule of law is much more important at this time that elections.
And then of course there's elections. Everyone wants these early – but I prefer them as late as possible. Our mistake is to believe that elections are democracy. Democracy consists of much more than just voting. It also needs the rule of law; an effective constitution capable of holding the executive to account; a free press; and a vibrant civil society. I suspect that the public pressure for early elections cannot be long resisted, but the more of the above that can be put in place before voting, the safer the outcome will be.
I tend to agree with that analysis, as there are no civil institutions of any note or authority extant, and thus no useful way of embedding a pluralist democracy. There is some danger that the Arab Awakening will throw up politicians who fail economically (the main driver for the original discontent) and thus pave the way for fundamentalism. Economic woes are stoking the fires of reactionary fundamentalists in the West - how much more vulnerable will be the fragile North African states?
We must only help where we are asked to. This was a different war – we played our part to enable the Libyan people to fight on their own terms. We have to be prepared to let them build their own peace on the same basis. Interference will be unwise and unwelcome as they have already made clear. Sending in floods of uninvited businessmen to capture contracts as reward for our help is not likely to be well received. Ditto dispatching the kind of small army of wet-behind-the-ears economic graduates to "help them rebuild their economy", which we sent to Iraq in the early days.
I disagreed with the intervention, but consider that we have a duty to work effectively towards helping the Libyans in the peace as they see fit. I agree with Lord Ashdown that we would be very wise to support Turkey in leading the restoration efforts in Libya. The US, UK and France would do well to set up a working group with Turkey as the lead nation, with the former supplying necessary security guarantees and monetary investment (since we are likely to be the beneficiaries of the oil deals) but political direction and guidance coming from Turkey - a moment to bring that nation deeply into a strong regional role. One would hope that the Libyan NTC would be keen on such an offer.
Come now, you know as well as I do that Kings are not Tyrants, for all sorts of reasons, shiefly because they have managed to make themselves generally popular and align themselves with their people's wishes in general. It's interesting to note that both Saudi and Bahrain monarchs are less popular now because they are starting to give their people more rights and freedoms, not less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
While I agree it's distaseful I think its clear that displaying the bloodied corpse had a genuine political sense to it, but that has now served its purpose and some form of burial is necessary.Quote:
Personally, whilst understanding the wish for a properly conducted arrest and trial (particularly when expressed with heartfelt condemnation by such leading luminaries of the human rights movement and the Geneva Conventions as Sergei Lavrov of Russia :dizzy2:) the execution of Gaddafi and his son was pretty inevitable. What I find more worrying for the future of the new Libya is that the NTC continued to lie about it - taking lessons from the West on such things already - and the unedifying spectacle of the dictator lying in a meat locker for days so that the crowds can gawp as he rots.
My thought here is that it is not for us to judge, and the current finger wagging is not only pointless, but also wholly negative.Quote:
Whilst the USA got an undeserved haranguing from assorted commentators for the quick (and religiously conformist) disposal of bin Laden, there seems to be a limited amount of criticism for an Islamic country treating one of their own vanquished with such contempt. Execution is one thing and to be expected. Parading the dead will diminish the successors somewhat.
Yes, I read that too. I am in two minds, while I take his point I think the counter argument is stronger, namely that the generally population need to take ownership of Libya before the fighters become entrenched as the new rulers. Already the Misratans are demanding their commander by Prime Minister, and the Zintans want the Ministry of Public Works for the bribes. The NTC has been generally impressive, but for just the reasons we find them so the revolutionaries and desert fighters are decidedly unimpressed.Quote:
On just that theme, Lord Ashdown wrote an interesting piece yesterday where he argues that for Libya, establishing the rule of law is much more important at this time that elections.
And then of course there's elections. Everyone wants these early – but I prefer them as late as possible. Our mistake is to believe that elections are democracy. Democracy consists of much more than just voting. It also needs the rule of law; an effective constitution capable of holding the executive to account; a free press; and a vibrant civil society. I suspect that the public pressure for early elections cannot be long resisted, but the more of the above that can be put in place before voting, the safer the outcome will be.
I tend to agree with that analysis, as there are no civil institutions of any note or authority extant, and thus no useful way of embedding a pluralist democracy. There is some danger that the Arab Awakening will throw up politicians who fail economically (the main driver for the original discontent) and thus pave the way for fundamentalism. Economic woes are stoking the fires of reactionary fundamentalists in the West - how much more vulnerable will be the fragile North African states?
We must only help where we are asked to. This was a different war – we played our part to enable the Libyan people to fight on their own terms. We have to be prepared to let them build their own peace on the same basis. Interference will be unwise and unwelcome as they have already made clear. Sending in floods of uninvited businessmen to capture contracts as reward for our help is not likely to be well received. Ditto dispatching the kind of small army of wet-behind-the-ears economic graduates to "help them rebuild their economy", which we sent to Iraq in the early days.
I disagreed with the intervention, but consider that we have a duty to work effectively towards helping the Libyans in the peace as they see fit. I agree with Lord Ashdown that we would be very wise to support Turkey in leading the restoration efforts in Libya. The US, UK and France would do well to set up a working group with Turkey as the lead nation, with the former supplying necessary security guarantees and monetary investment (since we are likely to be the beneficiaries of the oil deals) but political direction and guidance coming from Turkey - a moment to bring that nation deeply into a strong regional role. One would hope that the Libyan NTC would be keen on such an offer.
What is needed as a matter of Urgency is a replacement for General Younis, someone who can be placed in overall command and be tied to the government whilst having the respect of the blooded fighters.
That's probably because people are more wiling to say that they dislike their monarchs, not because they dislike their own rights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
A king is a "monarch" a tyrant is a "monarch". Take a look at the Arab countries that have NOT suffered mass revolts, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain... all Kingdoms, and that is crucial, because Kings are something entirely different from Tyrants or Dictators.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noncommunist
In Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Bahrain there have been protests, but in all three the focus has been on asking the King to enact reforms, not to remove him.
So, either the populace is scared to even think of deposing their monarch (Saudi Arabia / Bahrain) or who think that this is a reasonable way forward (Jordan). Saudi Arabia even was helpful enough to send their troops into other countries to help settle things down. Coupled with their appalling human rights at the best of times and state of the art firepower (curtesy of the Defenders of the Free) I don't imagine that their populations are keen on the wholesale slaughter that would most likely occur; that and the Saudis are astute enough to bribe their populations with non-jobs and cash from time to time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
~:smoking:
Gadaffi had/did all the things the Saudis do, but he suffered mass protests and ultimately full revolt [i]before[/i[ NATO intervention, so did Saddam. Take another look at Saudi Arabia, yes it's oppressive but in the majority of the country the royal family is quite popular. The clue is in the name, the country only exists, and is a regional power, because of the House of Saud.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Bahrain is more complicated, but if you look at the medium term and the short term prior to the protests this spring you will again see a generally upwarded trajectory, and (again) the ruling family is deeply embedded in the identity of the country.
Are you refering to the August 29 discovery of 53 bodies at a warehouse that was used by the 32nd Brigade?Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking
Sure. (WARNING: Content is what you would expect.)Quote:
Originally Posted by PVC
Like many in the press, I'm just trying to find them. For a genocidal regime bent on death and destruction, there have been shockingly few executions of prisoners or civilians, both in areas controlled by the government and those retaken, and even fewer that can be even tangentially linked to the regime proper as opposed to individual actions at lower levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by PVC
Quote:
TRIPOLI, Libya — Where are all the dead?
Officially, according to Libya’s new leaders, their martyrs in the struggle against the government of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi should number 30,000 to 50,000, not even counting their enemies who have fallen.
Yet in the country’s morgues, the war dead registered from both sides in each area so far are mostly in the hundreds, not the thousands. And those who are still missing total as few as 1,000, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross. Those figures may be incomplete, but even if the missing number proves to be three times as high, and all are dead, the toll would be far short of official casualty totals.
...
The new authorities say the confirmed death toll will rise with the discovery of mass graves where the Qaddafi government hid its victims, both during its final months and as it collapsed and fled Tripoli and other population centers.
Mass graves of recent vintage have indeed been found — 13 of them confirmed by the Red Cross, or “about 20” found by the government, according to the Transitional National Council’s humanitarian coordinator, Muattez Aneizi. More are being found “nearly every day,” Mr. Aneizi said.
“Mass” is slightly misleading, however, because the largest actual grave site found so far, in the Nafusah Mountains of western Libya, had 34 bodies. In many of the others, the victims numbered only in the single digits. Many are not even graves, but rather containers or buildings where people were executed and their bodies left to rot.
The Red Cross counted only 125 dead from the 13 sites it confirmed, with 53 of those found in a hangar near Tripoli’s airport. While the rebels may not have died in the numbers their side has claimed, there is no doubt that many were killed, often horribly, after having been taken prisoner. As the Qaddafi government collapsed and its die-hards fled from Tripoli and other strongholds, such war crimes happened in many well-documented cases. They just did not happen in many thousands of cases, judging from the available evidence.
There has been no explanation of the basis for either the council’s tally of 30,000 to 50,000 dead, or the number preferred by the new government’s minister of health, Naji Barakat, a more modest 25,000 to 30,000.
Dozens or hundreds? That's a big discrepency. Also, can you highlight this effort in 'mass extermination'? :dizzy2:Quote:
Originally Posted by PVC
In any event, claims of mass graves in Libya, like all information coming from the NTC, have been greatly exagerated.
Quote:
TRIPOLI, Libya — Libya's interim rulers were busy this week: They cheered the imminent fall of Moammar Gadhafi's hometown, ordered trigger-happy revolutionary fighters out of the capital, formed a new caretaker Cabinet and announced the discovery of 900 corpses in two mass graves.
Only problem was, all those moves turned out to be premature, exaggerated or patently false.
The National Transitional Council, the interim body recognized by the United States and most U.N. members as Libya's highest authority, suffers serious credibility problems. Political grandstanding and the lack of clear military command have fueled a pattern of disinformation that exposes cracks in the council's veneer of leadership.
...
And then there's the issue of mass graves. Tripoli security officials passed out surgical masks and brought a forensics expert Wednesday on a bus tour for journalists to one of the supposed gravesites in Tripoli. The site consisted of long ditches in a normal cemetery. The trenches were empty, with not a corpse in sight and no sign that any had ever been there.
Officials explained that locals had reburied the bodies in other plots in the cemetery because of the stench; they produced grisly photos of rotting bodies that they said were snapped by Libyan locals who wanted to document the scene. That, however, was a lie. At least some of the photos were shot by a New York Times photographer, and from totally different sites.
When confronted with the discrepancy, officials changed their version, saying the bodies were from various "mass graves" — one with 35 bodies, another with 98, and so on. The math did not add up to the stated figure of 900. They promised to look into the source of the photographs.
The security forces also urged skeptical journalists to check out another purported gravesite, in Tajoura, on the outskirts of Tripoli.
"That one has 300," one official said. "Definitely."
I can forgive the misplaced faith in the early media hysteria over this event, but now you're operating in fantasyland. You see, Hussein actually engaged in ethnic cleansing. Not imaginary genocide, but real, documented genocide. The only thing resembling his actions in the Libyan war so far has been on the rebel side towards the black population.Quote:
Originally Posted by PVC
Quote:
TAWERGHA, Libya — This town was once home to thousands of mostly black non-Arab residents. Now, the only manmade sound is a generator that powers a small militia checkpoint, where rebels say the town is a "closed military area."
What happened to the residents of Tawergha appears to be another sign that despite the rebel leadership's pledges that they'll exact no revenge on supporters of deposed dictator Moammar Gadhafi, Libya's new rulers often are dealing harshly with the country's black residents.
According to Tawergha residents, rebel soldiers from Misrata forced them from their homes on Aug. 15 when they took control of the town. The residents were then apparently driven out of a pair of refugee camps in Tripoli over this past weekend.
"The Misrata people are still looking for black people," said Hassan, a Tawergha resident who's now sheltering in a third camp in Janzour, six miles east of Tripoli. "One of the men who came to this camp told me my brother was killed yesterday by the revolutionaries."
On Tuesday, Amnesty International issued a report on human rights issues in Libya that included claims that the rebels had abused prisoners, conducted revenge killings and removed pro-Gadhafi fighters from hospitals.
Dalia Eltahawy, an Amnesty researcher, said the Tawerghis "are certainly a very vulnerable group and need to be protected." She called on the rebel leadership to "investigate and bring people to justice" for those abuses "to avoid a culture of impunity."
But rebel leaders, in their response, made no mention of Tawergha, though they promised to "move quickly ... to make sure similar abuses are avoided in areas of continued conflict such as Bani Walid and Sirte."
"While the Amnesty report is overwhelmingly filled with the horrific abuses and killings by the Gadhafi regime, there are a small number of incidents involving those opposed to Gadhafi," the rebels' ruling National Transitional Council said in a statement. "The NTC strongly condemns any abuses perpetrated by either side."
There's no doubt that until last month, Tawergha was used by Gadhafi forces as a base from which to fire artillery into Misrata, which lies about 25 miles north.
Misratans say, however, that Tawergha's involvement on Gadhafi's side went deeper: Many of the village's residents openly participated in an offensive against Misrata that left more than 1,000 dead and as many missing, they say.
"Look on YouTube and you will see hundreds of Tawerghi men saying, 'We're coming to get you, Misrata,'" said Ahmed Sawehli, a psychiatrist in Misrata. "They shot the videos themselves with their cellphones."
The Tawerghis do not deny that some from the town fought for Gadhafi, but they say they are victims of a pre-existing racism in Libya that has manifested itself violently during the revolution.
The evidence that the rebels' pursuit of the Tawerghis did not end with the collapse of the Gadhafi regime is visible, both in the emptiness of this village and that of the camps to which the residents fled.
At one, in a Turkish-owned industrial complex in the Salah al Deen neighborhood of southern Tripoli, a man looting metal from the complex simply said that the Tawerghis had "gone to Niger," the country that borders Libya on the south where some Gadhafi supporters, including the deposed dictator's son Saadi, have fled.
Abandoned blankets and mattresses littered the area, and laundry still hung drying. Aside from some extinguished cooking fires and piles of trash, there was little else to suggest human habitation.
Lafy Mohammed, whose house is across the road from the complex, said that on Saturday a group of revolutionary militiamen from Misrata, 120 miles east of Tripoli, had come to the camp and evicted its tenants.
"They arrested about 25 of the men," Mohammed said. "They were shooting in the air and hitting them with their rifle butts."
"They took the women, old men and children out in trucks," he said.
Mohammed said that it was not the first time the revolutionaries from Misrata had come after the people in the camp.
"A week ago they were here, but (the people in the neighborhood) begged them to leave them alone," Mohammed said.
Mohammed said some of the Tawerghis may have been taken to another nearby camp, in a Brazilian-owned industrial complex. On Tuesday, that camp was empty as well, with the gate locked.
Reached by phone at the camp in Janzour, Hassan, who did not want his last name used, said he had escaped from the Brazilian company camp on Saturday, when it, too, was raided. He said about 1,000 Tawerghis were now at the Janzour camp.
"They arrested 35 men, but they let me go because I was with my family," Hassan said. He blamed a brigade of fighters from Misrata.
In Tawergha, the rebel commander said his men had orders not to allow any of the residents back in. He also said that unexploded ordnance remained in the area, though none was readily apparent.
Most homes and buildings in the area appeared to have been damaged in the fighting, and a half-dozen appeared to have been ransacked. The main road into the village was blocked with earthen berms. Signs marking the way to the village appeared to have been destroyed.
On the only sign remaining "Tawergha" had been painted over with the words "New Misrata."
On one wall in Tawergha, graffiti referred to the town's residents as "abeed," a slur for blacks.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
Displacement of a town's population does not resemble genocide.Quote:
The only thing resembling his actions in the Libyan war so far has been on the rebel side towards the black population.
In a country of just 6 million people a few hundred dead is pretty good going.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
Still, do you have concrete evidence of mass extermination of blacks? Or is it just that they have all fled out of fear? The two are not the same.
Like all things in war, these issues are extremely murky, that does mean that the new Libya now emerging will not be better than the old, or that it was not worth dying for.
It kinda does resemble just that, you mean they have been found?Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking
They can be found in Tripoli and Benghazi, among other places. Just check PJ's last quoted article.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
New Libyan state to be more 'pious'
well..that was quick
can we have the Colonel back now???
Mr Jalil:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
“We are an Islamic country. We take the Islamic religion as the core of our new government. The constitution will be based on our Islamic religion.”
Meh
Random American politicain:
“We are a Christian nation. We hold the Christian religion as the core of our government. The constitution is based on our Christian heritage.”
See the non-difference?
Saying, "We are Islamic" does not mean "we are a bunch of beardy fundamentalists."
Phillipvs makes an excellent point. Additionally, other Arab states have incorporated Islam in their legal frameworks, even "secular" states such as Nasser-era Egypt.
Quite, that being said neither Nasser nor Mubarak were particular friends to the Copts or Jews in Egypt. There is undeniably a potential for things to get very ugly in Libya very fast, and I am concerned about the Misratan fighters, the tone of their commanders has been mardely different than the other units from Trippoli, Benghazi or Zintan, These men definately want their dues for withstanding a three month siege and they are not above exacting retribution for the destruction Gadaffi's forces brought down upon them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Wait, wait - does Jalil have the right to decide about that? Is the new constitution already written? Have their been free elections yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
No, no, and no. This is typical, I am afraid. Even before there is a new political constellation, the leadership is already pandering to religous groups and trying to 'get them on board'. Not a good omen at all. Look at Egypt where the army supports the Brotherhood. Or Tunesia (where islamists are physically attacking anyone who doubts their views).
'Arabian Spring' my foot.
AII