Civil War in Libya

[Tellos Athenaios]

Problem is that the Dutch PM has spoken on the matter. That is worrying given his poor track record at being right ...

[Shaka_Khan]

I wonder what history will think about this and Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Yemen, etc. I had doubts about the outcome of Iraq from the beginning as I was concerned about the safety of the soldiers and the Iraqis, but I also heard that Iraq's situation has improved a bit not long ago. If Iraq and Afghanistan turn out to go well, but I still doubt about Afghanistan very much, then I think a part of Bush's plan might be working better than we thought. That is if events in Iraq had anything to do with this. Of course NATO including the US helped in Libya directly.

[Vladimir]

I wonder what history will think about this and Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Yemen, etc. I had doubts about the outcome of Iraq from the beginning as I was concerned about the safety of the soldiers and the Iraqis, but I also heard that Iraq's situation has improved a bit not long ago. If Iraq and Afghanistan turn out to go well, but I still doubt about Afghanistan very much, then I think a part of Bush's plan might be working better than we thought. That is if events in Iraq had anything to do with this. Of course NATO including the US helped in Libya directly.

As much of a 43 supporter that I am his plan for Iraq was week but laudable. I see the effects of the invasion having a long term positive effect but I doubt much thought was given to topics like isolating Iran or how a democratic/parliamentary Iraq would change a typically despotic region.

Short term gains won the day. I have no idea what's going to happen in Libya.

[Beskar]

He has been killed, he isn't captured any longer.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15389550

[Lemur]

Obit.

[Vladimir]

Are we following .org rules on this one? Is he in the ground yet?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Didn't seem to matter too much when Bin Laden copped it and they were both about equally popular.

[Beskar]

Are we following .org rules on this one? Is he in the ground yet?

Unsure about the details.

I would appreciate it that we simply link mainstream news reports of the matter for factual information at this time until more information is published about the matter for at least within 24 hour window.

[Lemur]

Didn't seem to matter too much when Bin Laden copped it and they were both about equally popular.

OBL had already been buried at sea when the news broke, so that was a very different circumstance. No idea what the status is of the Colonel's remains.

[Viking]

Video appearing to show Gaddafi when he was still alive:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Fragony]

He has been killed, he isn't captured any longer.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15389550

How very nice, now would be a good time to reth- oh wait it's too late for that misery is next. you just opened the gates for full slaughther. Do we ever learn from our mistakes, shame on us

[Tellos Athenaios]

OBL had already been buried at sea when the news broke, so that was a very different circumstance. No idea what the status is of the Colonel's remains.

Fair enough.

[Adrian II]

Video appearing to show Gaddafi when he was still alive:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Well, so much for the story that he died in a fight. Ugly footage nonetheless. And he's gonna need his Allah where he is going.

AII

[Samurai Waki]

Well, so much for the story that he died in a fight. Ugly footage nonetheless. And he's gonna need his Allah where he is going.

AII

He looks like he got shot a few times... maybe he was nearing death at the time of capture. In any case, this was the fate he wanted.

[Hax]

I've never heard an Arab say that so many times without something blowing up.

And a basic course of Islamology would do you good, sir.

[Papewaio]

Recognise the humanity even in the worst of us.

Yes, I think he got what he ultimately deserved.

Yes, I ultimately think a trial would have got more mileage from a sane person.

One of the better quotes:

Mansour el Ferjani, 49, a Benghazi bank clerk and father of five posed for a photograph holding a Kalashnikov rifle: "Don't think I will give this gun to my son," he said. "Now that the war is over we must give up our weapons and the children must go to school.

"But Gaddafi was a terrible dictator and this was the only way to get rid of him. We want everything people have in free countries - want people to live in peace as you do across the Mediterranean where life doesn't require the machinegun."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/muammar-...#ixzz1bM4XoAUT

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Recognise the humanity even in the worst of us.

Yes, I think he got what he ultimately deserved.

Yes, I ultimately think a trial would have got more mileage from a sane person.

One of the better quotes:

If I were a Libyan I might have done worse.

[johnhughthom]

Ref the quote in Pape's post: If you want what people who live in free countries have, going around killing people without trial, no matter what they have done, is not a good way to start. Oh, I know, he tried to escape. I don't think the guy we have seen in so many videos looked in any shape for an escape attempt.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I never knew I voted for my taxes to be spent on exporting "democracy" to other countries. I never knew I lived in a Utopia where things were so good that there was spare money to spend on others - and not in an efficient way that saves the most people (e.g. extending a vaccine plan or providing clean water) no - dropping bombs on one lot against another. The next fight might start - hopefully only with words - when the disparate parts fight for power. What is done if there is a new dictator in some form or other? If elections are rigged? If a minority are scapegoated?

Bad things happen every day all over the place. That does not mean that the UK has any place getting involved unless it's within its own borders.

America borrows 40% of the money it spends. They have even less reason to go kicking hornet's nests.

The concept of "Make the world British" ended something like 100 or more years ago.

We used to make money by exploiting populations for our benefit which used to serve us just fine - I'm not judging anyone. I believe that we have hit a point in time where exploitation is no longer acceptable, but the problem is this; without exploitation - with egalitarianism - we have no standing to maintain our existing parity over the rest of the world. We are left in a conundrum where we are unable to exploit the masses and must elevate them, but this leads to a reduction in our own relative parity. In my opinion, we must accelerate this through a controlled relative decline (not actual decline, only in relation to other cultures), but we cannot do this with the current leadership that illegitimately rules over its people in many parts of the world. We must aid in hatching out all poisons in the muck while we deflate out own grandeur and help educate the world. This is different from colonialism - this is post-colonialism. I can't see another way out, no matter how hard the Federal reserve tries to inflate our economy - we are left to see what fair competition with the rest of the world does to the value of the American worker. I find myself often breathing a sigh of relief when I get a customer service rep from Hyderabad rather than the one from Ohio. Similar educational levels without the entitlement complex.

Show me the moral code which says that it is somehow wrong to go this route and I'll show you a void.

[Samurai Waki]

We used to make money by exploiting populations for our benefit which used to serve us just fine - I'm not judging anyone. I believe that we have hit a point in time where exploitation is no longer acceptable, but the problem is this; without exploitation - with egalitarianism - we have no standing to maintain our existing parity over the rest of the world. We are left in a conundrum where we are unable to exploit the masses and must elevate them, but this leads to a reduction in our own relative parity. In my opinion, we must accelerate this through a controlled relative decline (not actual decline, only in relation to other cultures), but we cannot do this with the current leadership that illegitimately rules over its people in many parts of the world. We must aid in hatching out all poisons in the muck while we deflate out own grandeur and help educate the world. This is different from colonialism - this is post-colonialism. I can't see another way out, no matter how hard the Federal reserve tries to inflate our economy - we are left to see what fair competition with the rest of the world does to the value of the American worker. I find myself often breathing a sigh of relief when I get a customer service rep from Hyderabad rather than the one from Ohio. Similar educational levels without the entitlement complex.

Show me the moral code which says that it is somehow wrong to go this route and I'll show you a void.

Bingo.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ref the quote in Pape's post: If you want what people who live in free countries have, going around killing people without trial, no matter what they have done, is not a good way to start. Oh, I know, he tried to escape. I don't think the guy we have seen in so many videos looked in any shape for an escape attempt.

What did Italy do to their brutal dictator?

That's how Tyranny ends.

[CountArach]

This discussion has drifted into unpleasant areas. Please return it to where it was.

[Ronin]

so...I guess they are going to need a new beloved leader/evil dictator.

is there any place where one might send a CV??

[Tellos Athenaios]

What did Italy do to their brutal dictator?

That's how Tyranny ends.

... Though if Italy is anything to go by, Papewaio's warning might need to be taken more rather than less seriously here.

[Adrian II]

OK, let's try a different tangent for this thread.

Since we are wargamers, what do you guys know (or think) of the Lybian rebels' 'funnies' such as this armoured car, scratch-bilt from a bulldozer and fitted with firing ports with shutters on all sides?





AII

[InsaneApache]

I think I'd rather be an infantryman than get in that deathtrap.

[Fragony]

If I were a Libyan I might have done worse.

Be glad, had you been a Libyan you would got much worse, right now or at least this week

[Ronin]

Since we are wargamers, what do you guys know (or think) of the Lybian rebels' 'funnies' such as this armoured car, scratch-bilt from a bulldozer and fitted with firing ports with shutters on all sides?

So the A-Team was big in Libya I gather?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Be glad, had you been a Libyan you would got much worse, right now or at least this week

From your repeated banging of the DOOM drum I think we are going to have to assume you are think Arabs are just evil. Seriously Frag, it's not that bad over there - they're reopening the schools, they have water and electricity. Sure, Gadaffi's supporters, including his black immigrants, are not too comfortable right now, but overwhlemingly the picture is positive - at least as positive as the immidiate aftermath of liberation in Occupied France after WWII.

That's what you have to compare it to, not our current lives, where we are all stinking rich, looked after by the state, have unbelievably low levels of government and corporate corruption and haven't had a major war or natural disaster for over half a century.

[Fragony]

Makes you think I find the arabs evil, unlike the NATO I just think it's just better to not meddle in what we don't understand. I don't have to defend anything as over 60.000 people are already dead, that's a massacre imho, and they really didn't need to die