ISIS on the offensive in Iraq

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Originally Posted by Husar

Well, for Fragony it is certainly not that way as you can see above, and since Kad used to defend Fragony a lot, I can see how it is easily confusing. And what is so informative about saying that the people who believe in the caliphate believe in the caliphate and act as the caliphate wishes? If they didn't then they wouldn't believe in the caliphate. Fragony does at least have some sort of message, even if it's wrong, maybe that led Hax to take it that way because otherwise it's not really saying a lot. Not to forget that Kad talks about a muslim perspective and then goes on talking about an ISIS-follower perspective if your interpretation is correct. Fragony clearly claims that ISIS has the only true muslim perspective and therefore all muslims should follow ISIS or they are not true muslims. Except that Fragony thinks ISIS follow Islam and muslims don't so he doesn't really think that, he instead thinks that all followers of Islam should follow ISIS and Muslims follow.....I don't know....muslimism, the religion of musli??

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nuance spotted sonebody wake me up

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

It comes down to this - what makes one a follower of Islam? Fragony believes the answer is following the Koran, and he's correct that doing so brings you much closer to ISIS than a moderate Western Muslim.

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And following the bible brings you quite a bit closer to a pentecostal than a catholic.
It's quite funny when a dutchman and a swede who are both apparently atheists come and tell us they understand the quran better than thousands of people who studied it and millions of people who try to live by its rules.

And Fragony, I've understood your argument for more than a year now, you just tend to write things that don't sound like you still hold on to it once in a while, creating new confusion.

Am I supposed to make a disclaimer every time? Nobody assumes that when you say something about christians you mean all christians, it's kinda tiring that they do if you say something about muslims

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Am I supposed to make a disclaimer every time? Nobody assumes that when you say something about christians you mean all christians, it's kinda tiring that they do if you say something about muslims

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The problem is that you seem to mean completely different things every time you say muslims and a lot of them do not fit what most people mean when they say muslims. If it confuses me, what will new members think who do not know what you usually mean?
You cannot expect everyone to read your entire post history before they reply to one of your posts. Just express yourself clearly, it's not tiring if you do it right, sometimes it just takes an additional word or two to make your position clear.

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Originally Posted by Husar

The problem is that you seem to mean completely different things every time you say muslims and a lot of them do not fit what most people mean when they say muslims. If it confuses me, what will new members think who do not know what you usually mean?
You cannot expect everyone to read your entire post history before they reply to one of your posts. Just express yourself clearly, it's not tiring if you do it right, sometimes it just takes an additional word or two to make your position clear.

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I have made it very clear so many times that I make a difference between muslims and submitting to islam, if they assume otherwise that isn't my fault. You are the moderater, if they report you can set it straight as you understand where I stand.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I have made it very clear so many times that I make a difference between muslims and submitting to islam, if they assume otherwise that isn't my fault. You are the moderater, if they report you can set it straight as you understand where I stand.

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I'm not a moderator, I do not warn people and I also won't do your job of explaining what you mean. What kind of silly insinuation is that, am I supposed to clean up behind you or what?

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Originally Posted by Husar

And following the bible brings you quite a bit closer to a pentecostal than a catholic.
It's quite funny when a dutchman and a swede who are both apparently atheists come and tell us they understand the quran better than thousands of people who studied it and millions of people who try to live by its rules.

And Fragony, I've understood your argument for more than a year now, you just tend to write things that don't sound like you still hold on to it once in a while, creating new confusion.

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Pentecostals?

Not even the Amish are that close to the Bible.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I'm not a moderator, I do not warn people and I also won't do your job of explaining what you mean. What kind of silly insinuation is that, am I supposed to clean up behind you or what?

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Thought you were my bad. But if people can't read, not my problem

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Originally Posted by Fragony

How is IS not the true version of islam? Not all muslims submit to islam, they are just born muslim, but IS absolutily is doing what their holy book tells them to do.

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Newsflash: there is no true version of Islam. It's a meaningless statement, there's not going to be a single person that says "oh yeah, I don't follow the true​ faith".

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Thought you were my bad. But if people can't read, not my problem

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If you can't express yourself, not peoples' problem.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Newsflash: there is no true version of Islam. It's a meaningless statement, there's not going to be a single person that says "oh yeah, I don't follow the true​ faith".

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Yes there is, it's IS. Does exactly what the quran tells them to do, litteraly. That most muslims are perfectly harmless and only care about what's for dinner doesn't change that.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Newsflash: there is no true version of Islam. It's a meaningless statement, there's not going to be a single person that says "oh yeah, I don't follow the true​ faith".

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Newsflash I'm an atheist and hence do not follow the true faith.

Unless you include Tim Tams because I like totally worship them.

*there is not going to be a single religious person claiming to adhere to religion x, y, z, that says "oh yeah, I don't follow the true faith".

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Yes there is, it's IS. Does exactly what the quran tells them to do, litteraly. That most muslims are perfectly harmless and only care about what's for dinner doesn't change that.

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yeah, and what exactly gives you the authority to say that?

Everyday reality? Not all people die from ebola, but a lot do. Does that make ebola harmless?

lol yeah, I'm in Turkey right now, I'll just tell everyone I meet they're all suffering from a super dangerous disease, and if they want to be a true Muslim, they should go to Syria.

man, what the hell is your problem?

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Originally Posted by Hax

lol yeah, I'm in Turkey right now, I'll just tell everyone I meet they're all suffering from a super dangerous disease, and if they want to be a true Muslim, they should go to Syria.

man, what the hell is your problem?

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Your inability to read, how many times must I repeat that I differentiate between being a muslim and submitting to islam. Look back, you might not be able to read it because your brains blocks the inpuf but it's really there. Focus and you will see.

yeah, only because to a muslim there is no difference. it is literally the meaning of the word "muslim", which you would know if you knew Arabic -- but I mean, let's not get ahead of ourselves haha.

look, your point of view only makes sense -- and it's not completely wrong either -- if you submit (see what I did there) to ISIS' propaganda in the first place, which is indeed that "no islam is violent and if you don't join us, you're not a real muslim", which is a completely retarded statement anyway.

additionally, you mentioned that everything that ISIS does is in the quran: fine, I'll grant you that; but they're also very good at discarding a very sizable part of the quran that does not condone massacring people left and right just because you feel like it. and as a side note, when you actually read the quran, you're gonna find that it's so vague and minimal in terms of lifestyle rules, that you can pretty much just do with it what you want anyway.

just like literally​ any other religious work

IS is not propaganda, it's what islam tells you to do. You are trying to be clever by saying the quran without mentioning the hadith, everything IS does is what they have to do when submitted to islam. Not just IS, also Boko Haram and Al Shehaab, hundreds of people allahu-hakbarred almost every week. Islam is a vile ideoligy, simple as that. A muslim is just someone born muslim, my sometimes girlfriend is a fine specimen. She does ramadan and we make fun of her when she does that but that's about how great god is for her.

So just to get some more clarification Fragony, are you basically saying that all muslims who do not slaughter us are basically atheists or what would you call the religion they follow? Are you saying they are all unable to read or just lying to themselves? And what would you call the one and only true christian denomination that is the only one actually based on the bible?

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Originally Posted by Husar

So just to get some more clarification Fragony, are you basically saying that all muslims who do not slaughter us are basically atheists or what would you call the religion they follow? Are you saying they are all unable to read or just lying to themselves? And what would you call the one and only true christian denomination that is the only one actually based on the bible?

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No, a muslim is just someone who was born muslim and celebrates ramadan and all that stuff like we celebrate christmas, everybody has a christmas-tree it has nothing to do with christianity it's just a tradition, same for ramadan and sugar-fest for muslims, nothing bad about it. But submitting to islam is something entirely different, the rules and obligations are very clear if you submit, and I don't want it here. Muslims are welcome, the islam is not. Don't forget that the islam is a political ideoligy that is completily at odds with our values, it has no place here, just like communism and nazism. Islam dictates sharia LAW. We already have laws, laws that are much more humane, we don't stone people, we don't kill gays, women are equal, etc etc

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IS is not propaganda, it's what islam tells you to do.

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You are trying to be clever by saying the quran without mentioning the hadith

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You just contradicted yourself.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

No, a muslim is just someone who was born muslim and celebrates ramadan and all that stuff like we celebrate christmas, everybody has a christmas-tree it has nothing to do with christianity it's just a tradition, same for ramadan and sugar-fest for muslims, nothing bad about it. But submitting to islam is something entirely different, the rules and obligations are very clear if you submit, and I don't want it here. Muslims are welcome, the islam is not. Don't forget that the islam is a political ideoligy that is completily at odds with our values, it has no place here, just like communism and nazism. Islam dictates sharia LAW. We already have laws, laws that are much more humane, we don't stone people, we don't kill gays, women are equal, etc etc

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So muslims are basically atheists or at best "spiritual people" in most cases even if they read the quran regularly?
And what does the bible want people to do to be true christians? What is required to get to heaven? If you wanted to be a true christian hypothetically, what would you do?

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Originally Posted by Husar

So muslims are basically atheists or at best "spiritual people" in most cases even if they read the quran regularly?
And what does the bible want people to do to be true christians? What is required to get to heaven? If you wanted to be a true christian hypothetically, what would you do?

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Ah, the 'but christians', such a falacy to compare christianty to islam, christianity is not a political system hiding behind a religion, took a while of course, but why import what is lagging centuries behind and call it 'respect'.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Ah, the 'but christians', such a falacy to compare christianty to islam, christianity is not a political system hiding behind a religion, took a while of course, but why import what is lagging centuries behind and call it 'respect'.

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Ah the "I'll just ignore your question and answer by repeating what I say all the time to distract from it". You say that christianity once was a political system hiding behind a religion but has changed after a while but Islam has not. That means that you apparently think that the one true interpretation can change? If so, do you think it will change for Islam some time in the future? And what is the one true intepretation of christianity? Why would one book have one true interpretation and the other not?

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Originally Posted by Husar

Ah the "I'll just ignore your question and answer by repeating what I say all the time to distract from it". You say that christianity once was a political system hiding behind a religion but has changed after a while but Islam has not. That means that you apparently think that the one true interpretation can change? If so, do you think it will change for Islam some time in the future? And what is the one true intepretation of christianity? Why would one book have one true interpretation and the other not?

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How would I know if it can change, I can only see what it is right now, and what it has been before right now.

The problem with Fragony's position on (what we call) Islam is that such a rickety assemblage can only be held together by the invidious device of altogether ignoring all usages of "Islam" other than in the sense of "Salafism".

Thus, he confuses us because he speaks in tautologies. 'Why, of course Salafists are Salafists! It is what it is. How could it be any other way?'

It's sort of like saying that the Greek language is extinct because Homeric Greek is extinct, and that therefore only a relative handful of individuals, mostly scholars, can be said to be "Greek-speakers".

This is what passes for nuance in Fragony's land.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

How would I know if it can change, I can only see what it is right now, and what it has been before right now.

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Or maybe there is no one true interpretation and most people go with whatever they like the most? And even if we assume that you are right and ISIS have the one true interpretation, why would you think it were useful to run around and tell everyone that true muslims should kill you? Looking for a Darwin award?

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

The problem with Fragony's position on (what we call) Islam is that such a rickety assemblage can only be held together by the invidious device of altogether ignoring all usages of "Islam" other than in the sense of "Salafism".

Thus, he confuses us because he speaks in tautologies. 'Why, of course Salafists are Salafists! It is what it is. How could it be any other way?'

It's sort of like saying that the Greek language is extinct because Homeric Greek is extinct, and that therefore only a relative handful of individuals, mostly scholars, can be said to be "Greek-speakers".

This is what passes for nuance in Fragony's land.

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Salafists aren't really keen on IS actually, aparantly there is passage predicting the 'hounds of hell'

just saying

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Salafists aren't really keen on IS actually, aparantly there is passage predicting the 'hounds of hell'

just saying

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I think I get it now. The fulfilment of the prophecy has turned you into an ISIS follower and this whole anti-islam persona is just your taqqiya disguise!

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Originally Posted by Husar

I think I get it now. The fulfilment of the prophecy has turned you into an ISIS follower and this whole anti-islam persona is just your taqqiya disguise!

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So, you believe you have found him out on "Methinks he doth protest too much" grounds eh? It is always the "moles" that create the most problems at home....