Re: Insane In the Ukraine!
That's the whole problem, if Russia can create a situation that would cause member states to doubt their support if the defense clause is enacted the whole NATO and EU enterprise could be shattered. Most Americans don't even know Estonia exists much less that it's an ally we'd need to defend, a muppet like Trump would have wide support for withdrawing to the continental US and leaving Europe to defend itself. France and Germany are no where near prepared for squaring off with Russia or its proxies not politically or militarily.
Re: Insane In the Ukraine!
Re: Insane In the Ukraine!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
spmetla
That's the whole problem, if Russia can create a situation that would cause member states to doubt their support if the defense clause is enacted the whole NATO and EU enterprise could be shattered. Most Americans don't even know Estonia exists much less that it's an ally we'd need to defend, a muppet like Trump would have wide support for withdrawing to the continental US and leaving Europe to defend itself. France and Germany are no where near prepared for squaring off with Russia or its proxies not politically or militarily.
Or economically.
In which case you might also want to ask how Russia can afford that.
The country is almost bankrupt and depends on us buying its gas. On the other hand we depend on Russia delivering said gas, especially during winter. And that's just one area of trade and business cooperation. If Putin attacks Latvia or Estonia and doesn't even hide it, he attacks the EU and then we either do something or risk the EU completely falling apart. If there were to be an actual war between Russia and the EU, I'd guess all bets are off. Whether the British would just want to sit there and do nothing, EU membership or not, is a debatable question and Poland has quite a sizeable army, too. It's not just France and Germany, especially Poland would probably want to stop Russia sooner rather than later.
But that war is not just a military thing, because what happens after it? Imagine Putin wins and the armies of Germany, France, the UK and Poland plus a few others are all in shambles. Then what? He probably just lost all income from trade with the EU, his army probably took an enormous amount of losses and several EU countries such as Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Spain, Portugal are still left with their armies. Does he go on and conquer more or just wait until the hurt kicks in because he just lost his biggest trade partner and made 500 million people very angry? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26436291
Also consider the scenario where the EU actually does stand together and Russia is not the superpower it once was anymore, the armies of Europe combined would not only rather large in size, but also comparatively more modern and actually quite varied. In a scenario where the EU would actually fight back I don't quite see what Putin could gain, especially since even Trump may get into trouble for just watching that from a distance.
The other option is that the EU falls apart and we start WW3 sooner or later. The End.
Re: Insane In the Ukraine!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
Also consider the scenario where the EU actually does stand together and Russia is not the superpower it once was anymore, the armies of Europe combined would not only rather large in size, but also comparatively more modern and actually quite varied. In a scenario where the EU would actually fight back I don't quite see what Putin could gain, especially since even Trump may get into trouble for just watching that from a distance.
The other option is that the EU falls apart and we start WW3 sooner or later. The End.
I understand your point. Putin has made clear that he doesn't seem to mind his economy tanking so long as he can maintain his domestic support base. All hardships are pointed at the evil West. I know that Russia's military isn't so good that it can sustain military operations too far beyond its borders right now, especially with a country like Poland that takes its national defense seriously next door.
I don't think Putin is quite so stupid as to blatantly attack the Baltic States but do think he'll create some sort of situation there that will draw a line in the sand and demonstrate whether NATO/EU are paper tigers or not.
Hate making the Hitler comparison but remember that he never expected France and the UK to actually go to war with him over Poland. He assumed they too were paper tigers and would instead debate about war endlessly. Saddam didn't think the US was going to invade him in 2003 without a clear resolution form the UN Security Council. Strongman politics is always gambling and trying to call bluffs. I think that Putin believes he can obtain his goal of dismantling or shrinking NATO/EU without having to actually resort to a large war but that type of gambling can very well lead to WW3. Obama's declaration that Nukes would only be used in retaliation to nukes and never be used as first means that the defeating the US in a conventional fight does not mean we'd go nuclear to makeup for that defeat or shortfall which has severally limited the effectiveness of it as a deterrent to conventional military threats.
Also, just to explain myself. I don't see WW3 around the corner but do worry that our fickle leadership right now could set the conditions that might lead to it.
Re: Insane In the Ukraine!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
Again, what I never read in these analyses is that an attack on an EU country would not only trigger a NATO defense clause but also an EU one.
Are there EU armed forces?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
If Putin attacks Latvia or Estonia and doesn't even hide it, he attacks the EU and then we either do something or risk the EU completely falling apart.
The answer is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
spmetla
I don't think Putin is quite so stupid as to blatantly attack the Baltic States
As he showed in Crimea and later in Donbas, he will pretend any insignialess military men in Estonia (or anywhere else) are local militias who protect the oppressed Russian-speakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lizardo
What ukraine has done is an act of war
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: Do you believe anything Putin says? There are a lot of inconsistencies in Russia's side of the story which make it a fake.
Re: Insane In the Ukraine!
Quote:
Are there EU armed forces?
little known fact is that putin is kept from invading through the prospects of fighting the swedish and austrian armies.
Re: Insane In the Ukraine!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gilrandir
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: Do you believe anything Putin says? There are a lot of inconsistencies in Russia's side of the story which make it a fake.
How is Ukrainian Media spinning it then total silence? And no i don't sometime's i notice what Putin says doesnt add up like this video Putin is bullshitting us,Putin is deflecting saying western propaganda I also know for a fact Russia is extending its border miles within striking distance to the trans caucaus pipeline swallowing up georgian territory and moving barbed wire border fences into georgia, but this situation with ukraine sending special forces units into crimea i totally believe. It's just something they would do because they destroyed powerlines to crimea before.
Re: Insane In the Ukraine!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lizardo
How is Ukrainian Media spinning it then total silence?
Do you mean Ukrainian media are totally silent about the incident? How do you know?
Ukrainian media are full of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lizardo
but this situation with ukraine sending special forces units into crimea i totally believe. It's just something they would do because they destroyed powerlines to crimea before.
You may believe whatever you like and you may as well say that Russia invaded Ukraine in August 2014 so it would do it again in August 2016.
The most flagrant inconsistensies/stupidities of what Russia spins are:
1. After the incident had happened Russia was silent for three days and only then came up with the story you believe so much. What took it so long to present the facts if there were any? In other cases Russia's reaction is prompt.
2. According to Russia, a group of 15 saboteurs (sometimes they make it 20) with KALASHNIKOVS in RUSSIAN MILITARY UNIFORM broke through border fences in Crimea being supported by INTENSE ARTILLERY FIRE from over the border. Their purpose was to organize a series of explosions to destabilize situation in Crimea and RUIN THE TOURIST SEASON.
a) When they showed the first captured "saboteur" he was wearing a T-shirt. Did they allow him to change to spoil a perfect picture? And the T-shirt he was wearing was his regular one he wore working in his garage (by admission of his brother). Did he take it with him under the uniform to change back into it once the border was crossed?
b) Is this the way saboteurs penetrate into the territory of the enemy? Wouldn't they rather do it as ordinary tourists and later stick to their hidious plan? And why do saboteurs need Kalashnikovs?
c) If there was artillery fire, why no shell craters were exhibited to the public?
d) One should be very smart to ruin the tourist season IN AUGUST when it is drawing to the end (well, if you could call it a season with 1.5 million tourists compared to 6 million in 2013).
3. Russia claimed the group was headed by Ukrainian intelligence officers never exhibiting any. All they showed to the public was three Ukrainians who suited the role of saboteurs perfectly: the first had taken part in Maidan and in fighting in Donbas, the second had been born in Lviv (although he was a Crimea resident, twice served his prison terms on criminal charges before 2014, now and then went to work to Moscow as a builder, supported the annexation and was generally pro-Russian) and the third was a Tatar (arrested two months before, by the admission of his relatives).
4. The things "the saboteurs" had carried with them included (among the other stuff) a rusty pistol and several packages of ground red pepper (of course, written in Ukrainian on it).
5. When Russian TV showed the footage of capturing "the saboteurs" there was something wrong with the moon phase. You can't read it (I assume), but look at the pictures:
http://fakeoff.org/freak-show/ochere...oy-provokatsii
On balance, the likeliest version of what had happened is:
There was a conflict with shooting among Russian military deployed in Northern Crimea in which a FSB officer was killed. Some say there was a brawl between the former Ukrainian military who changed sides in 2014 and the genuine Russian ones (who upbraided the former for betraying the oath). Others say there was a conflict between Russian military and FSB. Anyway, the story of saboteurs was invented to cover up for unsavoury truth and rev up anti-Ukranian hysteria. And to be believed by unwary foreigners.
