Ukraine Thread

[Gilrandir]

Again, what I never read in these analyses is that an attack on an EU country would not only trigger a NATO defense clause but also an EU one.

Are there EU armed forces?

If Putin attacks Latvia or Estonia and doesn't even hide it, he attacks the EU and then we either do something or risk the EU completely falling apart.

The answer is:

I don't think Putin is quite so stupid as to blatantly attack the Baltic States

As he showed in Crimea and later in Donbas, he will pretend any insignialess military men in Estonia (or anywhere else) are local militias who protect the oppressed Russian-speakers.

What ukraine has done is an act of war

Do you believe anything Putin says? There are a lot of inconsistencies in Russia's side of the story which make it a fake.

[Greyblades]

Are there EU armed forces?

little known fact is that putin is kept from invading through the prospects of fighting the swedish and austrian armies.

[Lizardo]

Do you believe anything Putin says? There are a lot of inconsistencies in Russia's side of the story which make it a fake.

How is Ukrainian Media spinning it then total silence? And no i don't sometime's i notice what Putin says doesnt add up like this video Putin is bullshitting us,Putin is deflecting saying western propaganda I also know for a fact Russia is extending its border miles within striking distance to the trans caucaus pipeline swallowing up georgian territory and moving barbed wire border fences into georgia, but this situation with ukraine sending special forces units into crimea i totally believe. It's just something they would do because they destroyed powerlines to crimea before.

[Gilrandir]

How is Ukrainian Media spinning it then total silence?

Do you mean Ukrainian media are totally silent about the incident? How do you know?

Ukrainian media are full of it.

but this situation with ukraine sending special forces units into crimea i totally believe. It's just something they would do because they destroyed powerlines to crimea before.

You may believe whatever you like and you may as well say that Russia invaded Ukraine in August 2014 so it would do it again in August 2016.

The most flagrant inconsistensies/stupidities of what Russia spins are:
1. After the incident had happened Russia was silent for three days and only then came up with the story you believe so much. What took it so long to present the facts if there were any? In other cases Russia's reaction is prompt.

2. According to Russia, a group of 15 saboteurs (sometimes they make it 20) with KALASHNIKOVS in RUSSIAN MILITARY UNIFORM broke through border fences in Crimea being supported by INTENSE ARTILLERY FIRE from over the border. Their purpose was to organize a series of explosions to destabilize situation in Crimea and RUIN THE TOURIST SEASON.

a) When they showed the first captured "saboteur" he was wearing a T-shirt. Did they allow him to change to spoil a perfect picture? And the T-shirt he was wearing was his regular one he wore working in his garage (by admission of his brother). Did he take it with him under the uniform to change back into it once the border was crossed?

b) Is this the way saboteurs penetrate into the territory of the enemy? Wouldn't they rather do it as ordinary tourists and later stick to their hidious plan? And why do saboteurs need Kalashnikovs?

c) If there was artillery fire, why no shell craters were exhibited to the public?

d) One should be very smart to ruin the tourist season IN AUGUST when it is drawing to the end (well, if you could call it a season with 1.5 million tourists compared to 6 million in 2013).

3. Russia claimed the group was headed by Ukrainian intelligence officers never exhibiting any. All they showed to the public was three Ukrainians who suited the role of saboteurs perfectly: the first had taken part in Maidan and in fighting in Donbas, the second had been born in Lviv (although he was a Crimea resident, twice served his prison terms on criminal charges before 2014, now and then went to work to Moscow as a builder, supported the annexation and was generally pro-Russian) and the third was a Tatar (arrested two months before, by the admission of his relatives).

4. The things "the saboteurs" had carried with them included (among the other stuff) a rusty pistol and several packages of ground red pepper (of course, written in Ukrainian on it).

5. When Russian TV showed the footage of capturing "the saboteurs" there was something wrong with the moon phase. You can't read it (I assume), but look at the pictures:
http://fakeoff.org/freak-show/ochere...oy-provokatsii

On balance, the likeliest version of what had happened is:

There was a conflict with shooting among Russian military deployed in Northern Crimea in which a FSB officer was killed. Some say there was a brawl between the former Ukrainian military who changed sides in 2014 and the genuine Russian ones (who upbraided the former for betraying the oath). Others say there was a conflict between Russian military and FSB. Anyway, the story of saboteurs was invented to cover up for unsavoury truth and rev up anti-Ukranian hysteria. And to be believed by unwary foreigners.

[Lizardo]

Thanks, very interesting however there is a desire in Ukrainian + Western political circles to commence the war in the east, if Putin wanted to push on in Eastern Ukraine this incident would be a legitimate reason. But i see a stalemate is in Russia interest? But ukraine is a great scapegoat atm. A flare up in conflict may derail the removal of sanctions

[Gilrandir]

there is a desire in Ukrainian + Western political circles to commence the war in the east,

As the events of the last 2 and a half years showed, the West has been doing everything to avoid any war at any price, including pushing Ukraine into any peace treaty. Ukraine has been trying to avoid war since August 2014 (though with a different motivation) when Russian regular army interfered into Donbas fighting.

[Greyblades]

Does the ukraine have any relationship with turkey? As much as a prick Edrogan is they are militarily strong and belligerent towards russia, seems like ideal allies for the Ukraine.

[Gilrandir]

Does the ukraine have any relationship with turkey? As much as a prick Edrogan is they are militarily strong and belligerent towards russia, seems like ideal allies for the Ukraine.

On the one hand, Turkey has always been a supporter of their Turkic brethren in Crimea (Tatars) who were against the annexation. So officially, Turkey took the side of Ukraine in the conflict. On the other hand, inofficially, Turkish ships continue to enter the Crimean ports who are ostensibly under sanctions and thus must be a no-go zone. After Turks had shot down the Russian plane and Russia had imposed sanctions on Turkish vegetables and fruit together with stopping all tourist flow to Turkey, there was a hope that Ukraine and Turkey may draw closer in opposing Russia. However, Erdogan evidently felt snubbed by Europe and the USA and Turkish resort facilities suffered greatly because of the abscence of Russian tourists. So Erdogan went to Putin with his tail between the legs. Such an ally would be too fickle for Ukraine to rely on.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

As the events of the last 2 and a half years showed, the West has been doing everything to avoid any war at any price, including pushing Ukraine into any peace treaty. Ukraine has been trying to avoid war since August 2014 (though with a different motivation) when Russian regular army interfered into Donbas fighting.

Only a war in which we might take casualties. If you can arrange the other kind, you'd get a much heartier response.

[Gilrandir]

Only a war in which we might take casualties. If you can arrange the other kind, you'd get a much heartier response.

I know. Why die for Danzig.