Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

:Panzer might I suggest you stick to discussing the London congestion charge since your lack of knowledge on that subject is far far less than on this subject .

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Its all there in the history books. The arabs continue to start wars, lose land, and then somehow expect for it to be given right back. I wonder if they would do the same if they didn't suck so much at military operations. Probably would, as they're so invested in making themselves seem oppressed.

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And being the people they are ( )... And what, pray tell, kind of people would that be, my dear sir?

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I think I've made my feelings on arab muslims - their values, society and culture - abundantly clear. I can reiterate if you'd like.

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The Palestinians did not start the war, the Zionists started the war. The Zionists packed up their bags and families, sold their houses, gave up their birth nationalities, and crossed oceans and continents and time zones to start the war. The Palestinians didn't have to move ten feet because they were already there. The only possible way you could say the Palestinians started the war would be to blame them for getting in the way of the people stealing their land.

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Ah, but you cannot steal something from someone if it did not belong to him in the first place.

A rather crude and imperfect example would be the status of Mexicans living in the West after the Mexican-American war. It did not matter whether they had been living there for several generations, their "ownership" of the land they lived on was at the sole discretion of the American government.

Although the causes were different, the situation was the same. The palestinians were at the will of the UN and the British. They chose to make a homeland for the Jews out of a tiny parcel of land taken from the Ottoman Empire. It was their prerogative to make such a mistake.

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Its all there in the history books. The arabs continue to start wars, lose land, and then somehow expect for it to be given right back.

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
They expect it tobe given right back:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
read the history books Panzer , Israel is signatory to a document that says it cannot take land in war and not give it back :dizzy2:

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Ah, but you cannot steal something from someone if it did not belong to him in the first place.

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But it did belong to people , it was the Jewish settlers who owned less land . and the government held land was to be distributed to the residents on an equitable basis , so your ownership claim is complete bollox .

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I think I've made my feelings on arab muslims

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Ah so the arab christians are OK then , and the atheists .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Ah so the arab christians are OK then , and the atheists .

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Nope they are not OK, they are being oppressed by your favorite people.

I thought I'd trot out some facts, you never know what it's good for.

Fact:The land of Palestine was known as such (Παλαιστίνη) in the days of Herodotus.

See his Histories 7:89 where he describes it as being inhabited by Syrians and Phoenicians: '[..] and this part of Syria and all as far as Egypt is called Palestine.' Of course the population of the area has since been in flux, as has the population in every other part of the world. Jews were part of that flux wherever they moved.

It is rather funny to see Arabs being posthumously denied a right to Palestinian land around 1900 because they supposedly didn't have fixed abodes and were 'moving around' as it is said, as this applies a fortiori to any Jews who settled there.

Fact: Under the British Mandate, all who lived in the region called Palestine were legally Palestinians, including all Jews.

The term 'Palestinian Jews' was dropped only after 1948 when these Jews became citizens of Israel. Likewise the Arabs who lived there were called 'Palestinian Arabs'. The 'creation' of a separate Palestinian identity was as much the work of the Arab leaders as the Palestinians themselves. A separate Palestinian nation with a claim to Israel's land was a useful pawn to these leaders. The question of whether the Palestinians constituted a nation before the period under consideration is neither here nor there. All nations were once constituted for the first time. So were the Palestinians, ultimately during the Mandate. What counts is that they are a nation now.

Fact: When the British took the first population census under the Mandate in 1922, the breakdown was as follows: 752,048 individuals, of which 589,177 Muslims, 83,790 Jews, 71,464 Christians and 7,617 persons belonging to other groups. When the British left in 1948, the numbers were: approximately 1.35 million Arabs and approximately 650,000 Jews.

If the Arabs were chased off their land during the Mandate, how is it that there were twice as many of them after the Mandate ended? Or could it be that Zionist colonization had been far less aggressive than it is made out to be?

The problem of 'whose land was it in the first place?' is complicated. The Arab fellahin (peasants) who lived and tilled the land in what is now Israel were most often not the legal owners of that land. They despised their own leaders and land-owners who sold them for a nickel and a dime if they had the chance. Israeli unwillingness to strike a deal with the locals and their (often absenteist) masters grew as a result of the rampant antisemitism among Palestinians in the 1920's and 1930's. After the Mufti-led revolt of 1936 any chance of a peaceful solution was gone.

Ben-Gurion's writings reflect the ambivalence of a man who lived through all this, and who was forced to deal decisively with these matters, yet refused to adopt the kind of Jewish fascism promulgated by Jabotinsky e.a. Unless someone disabuses me with evidence in hand, I believe Ben-Gurion's writings and speeches show that he was both more honest and more lucid than any Arab figurehead in Palestine at the time.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

I think I've made my feelings on arab muslims - their values, society and culture - abundantly clear. I can reiterate if you'd like.

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Only if it would offer you a cathartic respite.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Ah, but you cannot steal something from someone if it did not belong to him in the first place.

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Do you really think semantics justify theft? Besides, what constitutes ownership? Does the man who was born and lives in a place and raises his family there have no rights to the land only because a bureaucrat thousands of miles away says the paperwork now says the land now belongs to another guy who has never even been to that place in his life?

The files might be in order and the forms signed in triplicate, but where is the justice? Theft is theft no matter what you call it and how nicely you dress it up.

Even the founder of Israel agreed the Zionists were taking other people's land.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Ah so the arab christians are OK then , and the atheists .

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Your distorted realities aside, its about the culture, not race.

Arabs or muslims who have embraced some of the basic tenants of what we consider enlightened thought here in the West, I have few problems with. These would include such basic freedoms as those of thought and expression. Oh, and the strange habit of not subjugating women.

On the other hand, I believe I have made reference to those arabs who embrace the strains of Islam common in that part of the world - which includes the vast majority of palestinians - as being more akin to our canine friends than ourselves.

Clear enough?

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Originally Posted by Beirut

Do you really think semantics justify theft? Besides, what constitutes ownership? Does the man who was born and lives in a place and raises his family there have no rights to the land only because a bureaucrat thousands of miles away says the paperwork now says the land now belongs to another guy who has never even been to that place in his life?

The files might be in order and the forms signed in triplicate, but where is the justice? Theft is theft no matter what you call it and how nicely you dress it up.

Even the founder of Israel agreed the Zionists were taking other people's land.

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We're operating on different levels. Im making a legal argument and you are offering an emotional one.

To be very honest, I do not think Israel was a good idea.

If I were Truman, I would have offered some of the vast swathes of government owned American land for the Jews to come and settle in. Make it its's own stat. It certainly would have helped the economy. :yes:

Of course that wouldn't have swung with the American people or the Zionists.

Unfortunately, the nation of Israel was created, and it was well within the UN's authority to let that happen.

The time to fight against its creation - through petitions to the UN or through military force - was in 1947. Each successive decade that passes makes the failure of palestinians to accept peace, or even Israel itself, even more ridiculous. Each infatada, each school bus blown up, each nightclub slaughter, and each rocket fired into urban areas makes the heavy-handed retaliations of the Israelis a little bit more justified.

You know, my father was very much indoctrinated into the Nazi war machine through the Hitler Youth. In '45, he simply could not - would not - believe Germany had lost. It was a terrible thing for such a small boy to have believed with all his heart that Germany was right and would win, and then to see his neighborhood patrolled by foreign soldiers.

However, 63 years later, it has sunken in. In fact, reality came to him far sooner than that, and he was able to move on and make something of himself. Palestinians could learn from such an example.

In other words, do they want to be the Native Americans who wallow in poverty and drunkenness, complaining about how their land was stolen - or do they want to be the Native Americans bringing in millions who just bought Hard Rock.

Sometimes you just have to move on. Everyone has OK'd a palestinian state except the palestinians.

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Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on

This article, put shortly, is filth. It's full of misinformation, propaganda, and lies. But that's not very surprising coming from what appears to be an Israeli who has made yerida

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I share a house with an Israeli who made yerida. She is a seventh generation Israeli. Her family lived in Hebron (I think it was) long before Herzl, long before Balfour, long before 1948.

And no, Palestine was not an empty land. It was an inhabited land, often a dangerous land. By denying this, one denies the history and hardship of the first Jewish settlers. :yes:

But her family could live with the Arabs. Sometimes there was mutual aggression, sometimes peace and co-operation. What they can not live with, what made her leave, was the change in Israeli society. After the war, her parents grew up in a Tel Aviv that was open, enlightened, progressive. Now? It is full of Israelis who think they are brave for spending their conscription years as part of one of the strongest militaries in the world, pestering Palestian civilians at checkpoints. Hardliners, orthodoxes, pinguins. This Israel, and not two centuries of living amongst Arabs, is what made her leave.

Allah bless the EU.


THE STRASBOURG RESOLUTIONS

The Parliamentary Association for Euro-Arab Co-operation comprises more than 200 members of Western European Parliaments of widely different political tendencies. At its General Assembly in Strasbourg on June 7th at 8th the Parliamentary Association unanimously passed the following resolutions:

(1) Final Resolution of the Political Committee

The General assembly of the Parliamentary Association for Euro-Arab Co-operation calls upon European Governments to take initiatives forthwith that will help to secure the withdrawal of Israel from all territories occupied in 1967.
Such a withdrawal is implied by Resolution 242 and required by Resolution 338 of the United Nations Security Council and also by the United Nations Charter and the principles of International Law which categorically forbid the acquisition or territory by force.
The Association emphasizes that there can be no just and lasting peace settlement without recognition of the national rights of the Palestinian people. There has already been almost unanimous acceptance by the International Community of this principle, which Israel must also come to accept.
The whole Arab world has agreed that the P. L.O. is the sole representative of the Palestinian nation and this decision has been endorsed by an overwhelming majority of the countries represented at the United Nations.
The Parliamentary Association urges European governments to recognise this fundamental point in the initiatives they should now take.
First, they should call on Israel to halt immediately the expropriation and confiscation of Arab property in Israel and the occupied territories.
In particular, Israel must end the process of the "Judaization" of Jerusalem which it has illegally annexed and the establishment of new Jewish settlements in the occupied territories.
Secondly, the European governments should try to get all interested parties including Israel and the P.L.O. to the conference table, if possible within the context of the Geneva Conference. Europe itself, either through its member states or through the E.E.C. could play a valuable part in such a conference if called upon to do so. It would be reasonable to expect all concerned not to resort to military action of any kind for the duration of the negotiations.
Third, they should urge both the Israelis and the P.L.O. to agree to leave in abeyance discussion of ultimate solutions and concentrate on the immediate and practical task of trying to find a modus Vivendi which will require the acceptance by Israel of the rights of the Palestinian nation and of the existence of a Palestinian state on the West Bank and in Gaza if the Palestinians decide to establish one, and reciprocally the acceptance of the existence of Israel within her 1967 frontiers.
Finally, the European governments should urge on all concerned the crucial importance of effective peace-keeping machinery and should agree to take an active part themselves in such arrangements.
The Parliamentary Association recognises the problem that is posed by the fact that some of the media and publishing houses of Europe are dilatory in disseminating facts about the Arab world and intends to use its influence to overcome this problem.
The Parliamentary Association recognises the help done to the understanding of the Arab cause and growing sympathy for it in Western Europe by the liberalisation measures taken in various Arab countries and by the readier access to Arab countries by the news media, businessmen and other visitors from Europe .
The Association calls on European governments to improve legal regulations concerning the freedom of travel and the protection of the basic rights of immigrant workers in Europe which should be equivalent to those of citizens of the countries concerned.
The Association considers that the political settlement of the Israeli-Arab conflict is an absolute necessity for the establishment of a genuine Euro-Arab co-operation. Nevertheless, the Association considers that the political aspect of co-operationing not limited to this point alone, and has in mind for example the free circulation of ideas and people in the world as a factor for the maintenance of peace, for the support of freedom and in particular for a harmonious development of co-operation between Western Europe and the Arab nations.
The Association believes that the prospects of long-term Euro-Arab co-operation in all fields have never been so favourable but that they depend on a peace settlement based on justice in the Middle-East.

(2) Final Resolution of the Cultural Committee.

The General Assembly of the Parliamentary Association for Euro-Arab Co-operation, meeting in Strasbourg on June 7th 1975,
Having considered the cultural resolutions adopted by the the preparatory conference for Euro-Arab
parliamentary co-operation held in Damascus from November 12th to 17th, 1974, which reaffirms in the
present resolution,
convinced that significant results are possible in the cultural field of the Euro-Arab dialogue,
recognising the historic contribution of Arab culture to European development,
emphasising the contribution which Arab culture can still give to European countries especially
in the field of human values,
regretting that cultural relations between European and Arab countries are still infrequent
and limited in scope,
regretting the relative neglect of the teaching of Arab culture and Arabic in Europe and looking forward to
its development,
hoping that European governments will help Arab countries to create the resources needed for the
participation of immigrant workers and their families in Arab culture and religious life,
asking the European press to show a sense of responsibility so that they may inform public opinion
objectively and more fully about the problems of the Arab world,
recognising the important role which Friendship groups and Tourism can play in improving mutual
understanding,

Calls on the governments of the Nine to approach the cultural aspect of the Euro-Arab dialogue in a constructive spirit and to give a higher priority to the popularisation of Arab culture in Europe .

Calls on Arab governments to recognize the political effects of active co-operation with Europe .

Invites national groups of the association to increase the efforts necessary in every country to bring about the objective proposed at Damascus and today at Strasbourg and ask them to inform the Secretariat of the results achieved.

considering the harmful effect of the political situation on Palestinian development,

Condemns - while recognising Israel's right to existence - the Zionist intention of replacing Arab by Jewish culture on Palestinian soil, in order to deprive the Palestinian people of its national identity,

considering that in carrying out excavations within the holy places of Islam in occupied Jerusalem , Israel has
committed a violation of international law despite the warnings of UNESCO,
considering that these excavations can only bring about the inevitable destruction of evidence of Arab culture
and history,

regrets that Unesco's decision not to admit Israel into its European Regional Group has sometimes been exploited with great lack of objectivity.

(3) Final Resolution of the Economic Committee.

The General Assembly of the Parliamentary Association for European Arab Co-operation reaffirms the usefulness and necessity of a close economic co-operation between Europe and the Arab World in the interest of their peoples.
The Assembly expresses its disquiet at the slow progress made in the Euro-Arab dialogue and is concerned with events based on political motives which in the course of recent months have armed Euro-Arab co-operation, i.e. the setting up of the International Energy Agency and the signature of an agreement between the E.E.C. and Israel , before negotiations have been completed between the E.E.C. and Arab countries. In this connection, it insists that economic co-operation between the E.E.C. and Israel must not apply to the occupied territories.
The Assembly considers that there is no conflict between the interests of Europe and the Arab countries, provided that the mercantilist stage is left behind and genuine economic partnership can be established.
This is the perspective within which can best be solved the problem of recycling petro-dollars. These petro-dollars should above all be used for needs of Arab development.
The Assembly calls attention to the role and status of multi-national companies and the potential danger arising from certain of their activities. It expresses the hope that steps may be taken to avoid these dangers.
The Assembly reaffirms the right of every nation to dispose of its own national resources, including the right of nationalisation.
The Association expresses its will to do all in its power to promote Euro-Arab co-operation at national level, within the E.E.C. and through international organisations.

Euro-Arab Parliamentary Dialogue
Brussels , 21-23 June 2002

Algeria - Algérie
M. Abdel R Bel-Aiat
M. Najoum Mohamed
M.Mahmoudi Lakhdar
M.Belhadi Miloud
M.Mohamed Dada
Mr. Zahed Messaoud
Mme. Sabah Bournour
Mr. Ferhat Berndifellah
Mr. Abdelaziz Zemri
Mr. Mohammed Guerrout
Mr. Ali Mokrani

Austria - Autriche
Fritz EDLINGER

Belgium - Belgique
Dalila DOUIFI
Marie-José LALOY
Erika THIJS
Denis D’HONDT
André SCHELLENS
Jean CORNIL
Michiel MAERTENS
Pierre LANO
Jacques D’HOOGHE
François ROELANTS DU VIVIER
Mirella MINNE
Anne-Marie LIZIN
Paul GALLAND

Bulgaria - Bulgarie
Younal LOUTFI

Denmark – Danemark
Henning GJELLEROD

Egypt- Egypte
Mr.Ahmed A.Z.El Alfi
Mr.Ezz El Din Nassar
Mr.Gamal Abou Zekra
Mr.Jamal Abo Zikra

Estonia - Estonie
Indrek MEELAK

European Parliament - Parlement Européen
Luisa MORGANTINI

France
Loïc BOUVARD

Germany - Allemagne
Monika GANSEFORTH

Iraq -Irak
Dr.Ghaleb A. Al-Jasseml
M.Ali Abdullah A. Al-Thalimi
M.Daood Abdel Kader Salman

Ireland - Irlande
Michael LANIGAN

Italy - Italie
Gian-Guido FOLLONI
M RIVOLTA
Patrizia PAOLETTI
Antonio LOCHE (co-ordinator)

Jordania- Jordanie
M.Thaer Hikmat
M. Bel AIAT
M. Ali Zaioud

Kuwait - Kuweit
M.Muhamed J.Al-Saqr
M.Abdul M.Youssef Jamal

Lebanon - Líban
M.Cheikh Mikaël Daher
M.Yassine Jaber

Malta - Malte
George VELLA
Victor GALEA PACE

Morocco - Maroc
M.Amin Al-Damnati
M.Omar Asseba'i Assousi
M. Zeidan Mohamed

Netherlands - Pays-Bas
Bert KOENDERS

Palestinia - Palestine
M.Abdullah Abdullah
M.Chaouki Armalli
M.Zouhair Sandouka

Portugal
Edite ESTRELA
Antonio CRUZ SILVA

Saudi Arabia- Arabie Saoudite
S.E.Dr.Al Jaafari
S.E.Dr.Al Shaghroud
S.E.Dr. Al Latif Jamjoum
S.E.Mr.le Conseiller Al Moamar
Prof.Ahmad Badaoui
Prof.Badr Al –Dael

Soudan - Sudan
M.Ahmad I. Al-Taher
Dr.Issma'il Al-Haj Moussa
M.Sayed Mahjoub Ahmad
M.Sa'ed Habib Allah Sa'ed
M.Yasser Khoudhrb Kalaf Allah

Sweden - Suède
Pär-Axel SAHLBERG

Syria- Syrie
Dr.Hassan Al-Nouri
M.Ibrahim A'abbas
Mme. Nihad Thantah

Tunisia -Tunisie
M. Al Tijani Al-Haddad
M. Hamda Knani
Mme. Afifa Salah

United Arab Emirates - Emirats Arabes Unis
M.Abdel R.Ali Al-Chamissi
M.Abdullah Ali Al-Chouhi

Yemen - Yémen
Mr. Sultan Al-Barakani
Dr. Auras Nagi
Dr. Abdulrahman Bafadel
Mr. Abdelbaqui Abdelrahman

Observers
Peter HANSEN, Commissioner General of UNRWA
Nikolaus VAN DER PAS, Directeur Général, Commission Européenne, DG Education et Culture
Floris DE GOU, Chef de la section politique et secrétaire de la Commission Politique à l’Assemblée de l’UEO (Paris)
Charles Ferdinand NOTHOMB, ancien minister des affaires etrangères, Belgique
Bernard ZAMARON, Délégué Général, Centre Robert Schuman pour l’Europe

AIPU
M.Noureddine E. Bouchkouj (Sécretaire Général)
M.Mohamed Walid Abdula'al
M.Ahmad Mokayess
M.Did Al-Zanbaq
M. Samir al-Nihqwi
Mme.Layla Nachawati
Mlle.Rawad Asaid
M.Loay Kaddourah

PAEAC - APCEA
Pol MARCK (Secretary General PAEAC)
Johan GEZELS (Executive Director)
Carme GARCIA (Assistant)
Pierre HERMANT (Assistant)

Interprets - Interprètes
Lenka JOSZO
Mourad RAMDANI
Mourad KHALLAF
Frances CALDER
Doina ZUGRAVESCU
Anne THOEN
David STEPHENS


What the hell is going on here.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

What the hell is going on here.

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Its called politics. European Nations wanting something from Middle Eastern Nations and coming up with a joint resolution so that maybe they can have some type of political, economic relationship.

Pushing Israel to return to the 1967 borders is pretty calm and basic since it falls within the solution that is called for by a United Nations Resolution.

The rest is just political bargianing languge, not to sure if it really means anything or not. Would depend on how each nation is applying THE STRASBOURG RESOLUTIONS to its relatonship with Israel and other Middle-Eastern states.

Open borders has been pushed for awhile - one of the favorite's of the one world government conspiracies advocates. So not to concerned about it since I dont think the one world government has a chance of existing

Most of the other statements fall within the norms I believe for political and economicial relationship building between nations. Only statement that gets me is this one Calls on the governments of the Nine to approach the cultural aspect of the Euro-Arab dialogue in a constructive spirit and to give a higher priority to the popularisation of Arab culture in Europe. Not really sure what this statement means or implies.

One could look upon that statment a number of ways.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

What the hell is going on here.

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Simple. It's Fragony buying into more of Bat Ye'or's nonsense. She claims this resolution is solid proof that the EU wants to arabise and islamicize all of Europe.

Ye'or has gone off her rocker long ago. :dizzy2:

I know of the 1975 resolution where we got sold (read Eurabia by Bat Ye'or, scary as hell), same place also Strassbourg, that is why we have all this. This one was completily unknown to me. Need to get out of this place.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Simple. It's Fragony buying into more of Bat Ye'or's nonsense. She claims this resolution is solid proof that the EU wants to arabise and islamicize all of Europe.

Ye'or has gone off her rocker long ago. :dizzy2:

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All been documented, this is why I voted no. And with all due respect you are a journalist working for a pro-euro newspaper.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Simple. It's Fragony buying into more of Bat Ye'or's nonsense. She claims this resolution is solid proof that the EU wants to arabise and islamicize all of Europe.

Ye'or has gone off her rocker long ago. :dizzy2:

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Okay an European political thought that I never understood. An extremist view of what popularisation would imply then is her take on that clause, allowing others to wallow in fear?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

read Eurabia by Bat Ye'or

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I have, it's my job, that's why I mentioned her as a source before you did. I'm looking at the Dutch translation right now, I've read it from cover to cover and it's one big load of unsubstantiated balderdash.

You need to get out of this bad company, that's what you need. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

You need to get out of this bad company, that's what you need. :yes:

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Well kindly recommend me a book where it's torn apart piece by piece. There isn't one now is there, sounds like a joy for the intellectuals to shred.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Well kindly recommend me a book where it's torn apart piece by piece.

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OMG can't you do that yourself? Want me to show you how it's done?

OK, page 25, Dutch edition.

Ye'or wrotes: 'Whilst the media were revealing that Al Qaeda was recruiting among students and the higher-educated middle class, the European universities, at the request of the Palestinians, called for an international boycot of Israeli students and researchers. The Protestant churches voted for a boycot of all companies that were doing business in the Hebrew state'.

Now, where would the evidence for all that be? Can you show me any major European university that has called for such a boycot? Maybe there is one obscure establishment somewhere that has, but it is not mainstream at all. From time to time, there are calls and petitions from groups of European academics, but they never garner enough support to even become an issue. Only in Britain have they been vocal enough, but oh dear, universities would have none of it. Last year Britain's University and College Union (UCU) unanimously voted for a recommendation that not only is the call to boycot unlawful under discrimination legislation, but so are debates on the issue at the union's meetings. Consequently, the union cancelled a UK speaking tour in which Palestinian academics would discuss the academic boycott of Israel with their counterparts at UK universities.

It is standing pan-European policy not to indulge these characters. Remember how Bat Ye'or excoriates the European Commission for 'mobilizing all the European media and all the means at its disposal to denounce Israel and to spread the language of Eurabia'? Speaking of hyperbole, eh? Anyway, strangely enough, when confronted with one such boycott petition in 2006, the European Commission cut them short in the following manner:

Today, November 16, 2006, the office of the External Relations Directorate General of the European Commission, stated in a letter addressed to Prof. Yeshurun and Dr. Beck, that the European Commission considers "that measures such as to suspend the support that the EU addresses to academic and scientific co-operation between European and Israeli institutions are contrary to the principles of academic freedom and its objective of encouraging scientific cooperation". The letter, signed by Alain Seatter, head of the EU unit, added that "It is the Commission’s view (which reflects the views of the EU foreign ministers) that positive persuasion and dialogue on respect for international and humanitarian law through the means provided by the legal treaties with Israel is a more effective approach to conveying EU views on issues such as those raised by the academics to whom you refer". The letter concluded that "For this reason, the European Commission has no intention of suspending its programs of co-operation with Israeli institutions".
Linky

Now about those Protestant churches. There is no such joint intention or declaration or report of the Protestant churches of Europe at all. Whatsoever. period.

The only Christian divestment movements against Israel are American. The movement started there, with the Presbyterians and the Methodists. As far as I know the only remotely Protestant church in Europe that ever touched this is the Anglican Chrurch, and it only called for divestment for its own money from companies that support the Israeli occupation, like Caterpillar, the manufacturers of the bulldozers.

And so it goes on, page after hysterical page. If you are unable to debunk such screaming nonsense, you had better not touch political literature at all. I mean it.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

OMG can't you do that yourself? Want me to show you how it's done?

OK, page 25, Dutch edition.

Ye'or wrotes: 'Whilst the media were revealing that Al Qaeda was recruiting among students and the higher-educated middle class, the European universities, at the request of the Palestinians, called for an international boycot of Israeli students and researchers. The Protestant churches voted for a boycot of all companies that were doing business in the Hebrew state'.

Now, where would the evidence for all that be? Can you show me any major European university that has called for such a boycot? Maybe there is one obscure establishment somewhere that has, but it is not mainstream at all. From time to time, there are calls and petitions from groups of European academics, but they never garner enough support to even become an issue. Only in Britain have they been vocal enough, but oh dear, universities would have none of it. Last year Britain's University and College Union (UCU) unanimously voted for a recommendation that not only is the call to boycot unlawful under discrimination legislation, but so are debates on the issue at the union's meetings. Consequently, the union cancelled a UK speaking tour in which Palestinian academics would discuss the academic boycott of Israel with their counterparts at UK universities.

It is standing pan-European policy not to indulge these characters. Remember how Bat Ye'or excoriates the European Commission for 'mobilizing all the European media and all the means at its disposal to denounce Israel and to spread the language of Eurabia'? Speaking of hyperbole, eh? Anyway, strangely enough, when confronted with one such boycott petition in 2006, the European Commission cut them short in the following manner:

Today, November 16, 2006, the office of the External Relations Directorate General of the European Commission, stated in a letter addressed to Prof. Yeshurun and Dr. Beck, that the European Commission considers "that measures such as to suspend the support that the EU addresses to academic and scientific co-operation between European and Israeli institutions are contrary to the principles of academic freedom and its objective of encouraging scientific cooperation". The letter, signed by Alain Seatter, head of the EU unit, added that "It is the Commission’s view (which reflects the views of the EU foreign ministers) that positive persuasion and dialogue on respect for international and humanitarian law through the means provided by the legal treaties with Israel is a more effective approach to conveying EU views on issues such as those raised by the academics to whom you refer". The letter concluded that "For this reason, the European Commission has no intention of suspending its programs of co-operation with Israeli institutions".
Linky

Now about those Protestant churches. There is no such joint intention or declaration or report of the Protestant churches of Europe at all. Whatsoever. period.

The only Christian divestment movements against Israel are American. The movement started there, with the Presbyterians and the Methodists. As far as I know the only remotely Protestant church in Europe that ever touched this is the Anglican Chrurch, and it only called for divestment for its own money from companies that support the Israeli occupation, like Caterpillar, the manufacturers of the bulldozers.

And so it goes on, page after hysterical page. If you are unable to debunk such screaming nonsense, you had better not touch political literature at all. I mean it.

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A sense of wonder in the ' how could it be' kind is all you can do? My stomach needs the substantial stuff. All the royals are yapping the same thing. All governments seem to have little priorities other then muslim sentiments and muslim integration. As if we don't have hindu's living here, where's the love for them, maybe they just cause enough trouble? Could be. Need more though. If you are right about all this you sure should find a better way of selling this because I and with me half of the dutch population that sees islam as a threat doesn't buy it. Maybe I am not that good at thinking, I am only 31 year's old and I am trying, you know read stuff from smart people, a lot more then other stupid people do at least. You are losing us mia muca.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

A sense of wonder in the ' how could it be' kind is all you can do?

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That's all you have for an answer?

There is nothing to substantiate her claims. I mentioned two of those claims. Where is the declaration of European universities for a boycot of Israel? Is there such a declaration from even 1 European university?
Where is the statement of the Protestant churches in Europe that calls for a boycot of Israel? There is none. Maybe there are some Christian aid organizations that call for a boycott. Well, it's a free continent and it's their money they're talking about, not church money.

This woman is peddling myths and innuendo.

All she does in this book is yap about attempts at European-Arab dialogue and cultural exchange that are a normal part and parcel of politics, exactly as Redleg said. Every country does it, the U.S. and Russia, China, Brazil, you name it.

Not for Bat Ye'or. Every time a European leader shakes the hand of an Arab leader, here she comes running down the block screaming "Betrayal, they're selling us out!" :dozey:

Arabs or muslims who have embraced some of the basic tenants of what we consider enlightened thought here in the West, I have few problems with. These would include such basic freedoms as those of thought and expression. Oh, and the strange habit of not subjugating women.

So basically is not arab's or muslims you dislike/hate/fear its a certain thought process. The way you wrote it is similar to saying you dislike black people and then going onto say its just lazy black people you have a problem with. That just seems like a cover for racism because the correct statement is you dislike lazy people.

Are you equal with this criticism of people ? if there was a society that kept a people down because of thier nationality, occupied foriegn terroritorys and took a large percentage of essential resources like water to keep for thier 'own people' would you think as badly of these people ?

In other words, do they want to be the Native Americans who wallow in poverty and drunkenness, complaining about how their land was stolen - or do they want to be the Native Americans bringing in millions who just bought Hard Rock.

Im sure the palestinians would love to be bringing in millions but unfortunatly unlike USA, israel does not try to make up for the fact they took this land of the palestinians, infact in israel they seemingly go out of thier way to make life as miserable as possible.

The arabs continue to start wars, lose land, and then somehow expect for it to be given right back.

Since when did might = right ?

If the situation came up where an arab allaince overwhelmed israel militarily it wouldn't make it right for them to do as they please just because they are the victors and similarly with israel winning a few wars in the region does not give you the right to do whatever you please...

I wonder if they would do the same if they didn't suck so much at military operations. Probably would, as they're so invested in making themselves seem oppressed

You make me laugh, when the superpower of the region constantly calls racism or anti-semitism at the slightest sign of critcism, hell you'd think they were the ones being oppressed, at least the palestinians have the excuse of actually being oppressed

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There is nothing to substantiate her claims. I mentioned two of those claims. Where is the declaration of European universities for a boycot of Israel? Is there such a declaration from even 1 European university?
Where is the statement of the Protestant churches in Europe that calls for a boycot of Israel? There is none. Maybe there are some Christian aid organizations that call for a boycott. Well, it's a free continent and it's their money they're talking about, not church money.

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The student's union here at UCL voted through a "Friends of Palestine" motion, pledging that UCLU was against the illegal occupation of Palestine, and condemning Israel, at the end of last term. However, this occured at an AGM with several procedural irregularities, and was overturned on those grounds. In any case, it was against the Union Charter, so the provost would have intervened.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

That's all you have for an answer?

There is nothing to substantiate her claims. I mentioned two of those claims. Where is the declaration of European universities for a boycot of Israel? Is there such a declaration from even 1 European university?
Where is the statement of the Protestant churches in Europe that calls for a boycot of Israel? There is none. Maybe there are some Christian aid organizations that call for a boycott. Well, it's a free continent and it's their money they're talking about, not church money.

This woman is peddling myths and innuendo.

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Well if she is right it could have been given a spin in the right direction with all the tools at hand at the moment, not saying she is right of course but there is about 400 pages of recorded meetings and there even are apendixes and references, I am not easily fooled but that gets me every time.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Well if she is right it could have been given a spin in the right direction with all the tools at hand at the moment [..]

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God help me.. What spin? What tools?

THERE IS NO EUROPEAN ACADEMIC BOYCOT OF ISRAEL.

Look here, a special party was thrown to celebrate relations in 2006.

Stressing the values shared by the European Union and Israel, Ambassador Cibrian -Uzal mentioned that the European Union is Israel's main trade partner, that for a decade Israel has been a member of the European Union's R&D programmes and has also joined Galileo - the EU's satellite navigation project. Moreover, the European Neighbourhood Policy Action Plan mutually agreed upon included the possibility of fully integrating Israel in the European Union's Internal Market. [..] May 9 also saw the publication of 'The European Connection' a newspaper supplement on how Israelis and Europeans inter-connect in the fields of music, fashion, business, science and more. 'Studying in Europe,' a Hebrew language guide designed for Israeli students produced with the help of all EU Member State embassies was also issued on May 9 and quickly proved to be extremely popular with Israeli students.

Linky

I didn't bring that up kinda pointless to attack a position that was never taken, european boycott of universities wut, never heard of it. What I do see is a rather odd love for everything islam.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

We're operating on different levels. Im making a legal argument and you are offering an emotional one.

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The two intertwine nicely, evidenced by your own Declaration of Independence (which one may view as both a legal and emotional document) which states with blazing insight into the human condition:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

To be very honest, I do not think Israel was a good idea.

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On this we agree.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

If I were Truman, I would have offered some of the vast swathes of government owned American land for the Jews to come and settle in. Make it its's own stat. It certainly would have helped the economy. :yes:

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Interesting proposition. You'll love the food.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Unfortunately, the nation of Israel was created, and it was well within the UN's authority to let that happen.

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Says who? The UN?

Interesting that most of the countries who backed it didn't live anywhere near the affected area and the people who thought it was a terrible idea had the reality of it dumped in their front yard.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

The time to fight against its creation - through petitions to the UN or through military force - was in 1947.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Each successive decade that passes makes the failure of palestinians to accept peace, or even Israel itself, even more ridiculous. Each infatada, each school bus blown up, each nightclub slaughter, and each rocket fired into urban areas makes the heavy-handed retaliations of the Israelis a little bit more justified.

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Each successive decade that passes makes the failure of the Israelis to accept peace, or even Palestine itself, even more ridiculous. Each invasion, each school blown up, each market slaughter, and each rocket fired into urban areas makes the heavy-handed retaliations of the Palestinians a little bit more justified.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

You know, my father was very much indoctrinated into the Nazi war machine through the Hitler Youth. In '45, he simply could not - would not - believe Germany had lost. It was a terrible thing for such a small boy to have believed with all his heart that Germany was right and would win, and then to see his neighborhood patrolled by foreign soldiers.

However, 63 years later, it has sunken in. In fact, reality came to him far sooner than that, and he was able to move on and make something of himself. Palestinians could learn from such an example.

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After several bad post-war years, Germany was freed. Palestine, what there is left of it, remains a prison.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

In other words, do they want to be the Native Americans who wallow in poverty and drunkenness, complaining about how their land was stolen - or do they want to be the Native Americans bringing in millions who just bought Hard Rock.

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How can they prosper when no one will even talk to them? My own stupid stupid Canadian federal goverment won't talk to the Palestinians. And when those leftie weak-kneed commie Canadians won't even talk to you, who will?

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Sometimes you just have to move on. Everyone has OK'd a palestinian state except the palestinians.

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The offers so far do nothing but legitimize their captivity. Let's see the real deal. Let's see the UN and the US push an honest solution and let's see the Arab countries float some serious cash into the area and fix things up.

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Clear enough?

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Yes Panzer clear enough , its clear enough that you have racist and religionist views and are talking crap based on those , though of course that process generally goes hand in hand .

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We're operating on different levels. Im making a legal argument and you are offering an emotional one.

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: and that is where you screw up badly since your "legal" arguement has no basis in law and even the Israeli courts don't agree with you .
So you are making neither a legal arguement nor an emotional one just a baseless one ...and I really hate to break it to ya Panzer but a baseless arguement is a errrrrr......baseless arguement .
Here let me explain in simple terms that you may be able to grasp .
Your arguement + a law that supports that arguement = a possible legal arguement .
Your arguement + lots of laws that directly contradict that arguement= you talking bollox .
Its so simple isn't it :yes:

Beirut...

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Says who? The UN?

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all you have to do to destroy the credibilty of that claim is quote this clause from the basis of the move it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine ..it cearly shows that the UN could not and should not have taken the action it did and claim to be still acting within the terms that it itself approved , by acting outside the terms in destroyed any claim of legality over partition .



Louis , that is a fine post you wrote . Ordinary decent Isrealis are being persecuted and driven out by the nutters and by the Israeli governments strange practice of pandering to the nutters both in Israel and abroad .

Short of the dissolution of Israel (ties in with Beirut', or its eradication by violence, does anyone here see a viable solution?

If not, let's allow them to talk/kill at their own pace until they reach an ending.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yes Panzer clear enough , its clear enough that you have racist and religionist views and are talking crap based on those , though of course that process generally goes hand in hand .

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Religionist? :laugh4:

What a pathetic attempt to stifle the discussion. :no:

Why is it that the intellectually dishonest on the left such as yourself insist on attaching an “-ist” to any sort of judgment that you do not agree with?

Religion is an ideology, not a condition. Unlike things such as race and sex, one’s religion is a deliberate and thoughtful consideration. In that vein, it is – or at least should be – open to criticism and yes, even judgments about the values it espouses.

So am I religionist against the strains of islam common in the Middle East. You’re damned right I am.

I will take every opportunity to point out that islam in the arab world represents the worst of humanity. I will never ignore the complete subjugation of women, in which such perverted, disgusting things such as punishing victims for their own rapes are common. I won’t look past the complete lack of basic human rights. I cannot simply overlook the torture and executions of homosexuals and other “undesirables”. None of us should ignore or attempt to explain away the hatred bred for outsiders within the “religion of peace”, unlike any other major religion in the world today.

You should be ashamed of how easily you can ignore these realities – whether they come from shias or sunnis, Iran or Saudi Arabia - and yes, even Palestine. :shame:

You consistently attempt to discredit me by calling me a racist, a nazi, and now even a religionist(!), yet I consistently stand up for the millions of people oppressed by islam, most of them arabs themselves.

Islam in the Middle East is a hate filled ideology used by arabs to subjugate their own minorities and lash out at outsiders. It has left a once thriving civilization in the Middle Ages and cleverly directs people’s anger at their situation towards the West. It contributes nothing to humanity, and has cost us all – Westerners and Middle Easterners – too much for too long. Christianity went through this – hundreds of years ago.

The inordinate focus on violence rampant in islam itself plays a large part in the inability of the Palestinians and the arab world to reach compromise. Compromise is weakness while total annihilation of the Jewish menace is the ultimate martyrdom. Insanity. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Beirut

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
To be very honest, I do not think Israel was a good idea.

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On this we agree.

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I think thats more progress than has been made in 50 years of this conflict. Now what should be done about it?

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Short of the dissolution of Israel (ties in with Beirut', or its eradication by violence, does anyone here see a viable solution?

If not, let's allow them to talk/kill at their own pace until they reach an ending.

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You mean Israelis and Palestinians? Or the gentlemen involved in the "My chicken got there first - Yeah, but it was hatched from my egg" debate?

The former would be totally un-you.

Don Corleone That was another classic post of yours, frank and well-considered. But how oddly pessimistic, certainly when compared to your views about other pressing issues (for instance China's development). And if I know my Israelis, I would hit your Jewish relocation to the U.S. plan with the IPCF* stamp and file it under 'Ideas I'd better not show my Israeli friends'. It's just not in the cards, I think. Certainly not their cards.

* If Pigs Could Fly

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What a pathetic attempt to stifle the discussion.

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What discussion Panzer ? you claim history with apparently very little knowledge of the history , you claim legality with no legal arguement whatsoever , you claim culture and religeon but with narrow minded bigoted views trying to cover a very wide and complex issue .
In short Panzer it isn't a pathetic attempt to stifle discussion , it is your pathetic attempt to take part in one that is the problem .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

What discussion Panzer ?

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The one in which you consistently accuse me of all sorts of evil "ists" without anything to back it up, while at the same time defending jew hating, misogynist, homophobic thugs. Its such a complex issue though, huh? :stupido3:

As for my legal and historical claims, it is interesting to compare those nations and world bodies that recognize Israel's right to exist and those that do not.

Oh, and next time you decide to come up with a new label for me, you might want to look it up. You so terribly misused religionist its almost... pathetic? :study:

Gentlemen

I know this is a radical, even revolutionary notion, but perchance we could resort to constructing arguments and debate, rather than flinging insults at one another?

If one finds one's opponent may be in error, the polite thing to do would be to persuade him using evidence and compelling exposition. Shouting belittlement across the no man's land is unhelpful in this regard.

I know, it'll never catch on - but try it - you might like it.

:bow: