Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

Illyrian Cavalry is a suprisingly good unit, I expected them to be half useless and was positively suprised by their performance. Also any kind of skirmisher with an AP weapon.

For suprisingly bad, Thorakitai Hoplitai. I just can't find a decent use for those.

I also like the arachosian slirmisher cavalry. They are pretty tough. I am also surprised by the toughness of the hyrkanian hillmen!

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Originally Posted by Faramir D'Andunie

For suprisingly bad, Thorakitai Hoplitai. I just can't find a decent use for those.

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The only native KH unit that doesn't suck quite so badly at wall-fights. That's what they are good for.

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Originally Posted by Faramir D'Andunie
For suprisingly bad, Thorakitai Hoplitai. I just can't find a decent use for those.

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As has been said, they are good on walls because of the AP swords they use as secondaries. Compare that to Thureophoroi who, although excellent in field battles, totally suck on walls. Peltastai are decent on walls, too (as long as you don't force them to fight superior infantry toe-to-toe).
Speaking of Hoplite Phalanxes, IMO Iphikratous Hoplitai are slightly too weak, though they can be useful on walls and against cavalry. This is mainly due to the limitations of the RTW engine, though.

And what about the most mediocre units? (not counted as good, not counted as bad, not too cheap nor exspensive for their standing... and when you encounter them on the field you just singh... "oh they again... I grow bored seeing them on the field")

Greek ai semms fond of creating hordes full of akontistai...

Hmmm mediocre... I'd say Pantodapoi Phalangitai. Their performance is okay as is the price. They're okay for holding the line for some time although naturally they melt away against more elite Phalangitai.

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Originally Posted by machinor

Hmmm mediocre... I'd say Pantodapoi Phalangitai. Their performance is okay as is the price. They're okay for holding the line for some time although naturally they melt away against more elite Phalangitai.

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Pantodapoi Phalangitai are a fantastic unit, properly supported and provided they have no height disadvantage they can pin elite phalanx in place and allow flanking infantry and cavalry to destroy the enemy.

Yeah in my Bactria game I have some of those Pantapodai phalangites, they are pretty cool with armor and chevrons.

Illyrian Cavalry FTW.

They are cheap, fast, stamina by the bucketload, and a good charge for a light cavalry. Sure they aren't a hammer like hetaroi et al, but they are just simple and efficient. Not to mention AP axes!

My surprisingly good units are:

Milites Samnitici (Samnite Heavy Infantry)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u..._swordsmen.gif

These guys really put up a good fight. I bougth them in Sicily without any idea how good they were. When the siege of Syracuse was going bad I got sick of it and sent the samnites on the wall with ladders to fight their way through on their own. Around 3 groups of reasonable infantry were there. I thougth the mission was impossible but as said earlier I grew tired of this battle and just sent m up. But to my great Surprise they destroyed the enemy after a long fight. Sure a lot of them were dead, but they took a lot of men with them to the grave!

Quite large AOR, quite expensive though. They hold most infantry line, dont expect them to fend of cataphracts. But these men almost don't die!:beam: They keep standing until the very end and are hardy warriors! Sending a lot of enemies to their grave.

Of course there is the even better Roman equivalent:

Pedites Extraordinarii (Elite Heavy Infantry of the Italic Allies)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ites_extra.gif

These men are extremely though and when used correctly as flanking troops they totally tip the favour to your side. Excellent men! The Roman variant is cheaper and stronger but only available for Rome.

With chevrons almost unstoppable!

Combine these with some Gesatae and you will be astonished what you can accomplish! (Like conquering the whole map with Rome and Epirus in in 190's)!

Yeah they are very powerfull esspecially, on walls :help:
Roman units tend to beat the crap out of everything on walls.

Roman warfare what do you want. While for the greeks infantry was used in a defensive manner, the romans used it offensively. Still, it amuses me how they managed to do so much that way.

And the samnitii are great indeed, as Pyrrhus, i remember hiring lots of em, and killed countless romans that way. Their attack isnt great, but their armour is superb. Although i did find odd that milites samnitii was stronger then the hastati samnitii.

Pedites Extraordinarii are great, but I can't say surprisingly. It's an elite infantry after all. However Equites Extraordinarii are surprisingly poor. They are expensive, require highest level MIC to be built just for them and they simply don't deliver it. Not in melee and not in charge.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Ulpius

However Equites Extraordinarii are surprisingly poor. They are expensive, require highest level MIC to be built just for them and they simply don't deliver it. Not in melee and not in charge.

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totally agree with that. i like to use liguriae epos or equites campanici instead of equites romanii or equites extraordinarii

i was really surprised about this guys:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...u_spearmen.gif

they have frighten nearby infantry(!man-eaters!) atribute, good stamnia, big shields and are relativly cheap

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Originally Posted by richardfburton

Pantodapoi Phalangitai are a fantastic unit, properly supported and provided they have no height disadvantage they can pin elite phalanx in place and allow flanking infantry and cavalry to destroy the enemy.

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They have AP Axes.:yes:

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Originally Posted by Tartaros

i was really surprised about this guys:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...u_spearmen.gif

they have frighten nearby infantry(!man-eaters!) atribute, good stamnia, big shields and are relativly cheap

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:2thumbsup: Indeed. Combined with Bastarnae Falxmen, they are great vs. heavy infantry or melee cavalry. If you want to go totally badass, you can also combine them with Worgozez.
I wonder though why Doryphoroi Pontikoi are just as expensive while not possessing the "frighten infantry"-trait.

They are not cannibals...

The Camillan Principes are really good, along with the merc Bruttian infantry.
I also like the Persian Archer Spearmen, very versatile troops.:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

They are not cannibals...

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Not according to the EB description:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Voinu are fierce infantry spearmen who form the bulk of the armies of the Neuri and Boudinoi. They wear no armor, but their large, oval shields afford substantial protection and they are brave, wild warriors that make very tough opponents. In addition, they inhabit harsh terrain, forest, rivers and swamps, which is not suitable for cavalry warfare, but that they can use to their advantage. Therefore, their tactical doctrine was probably similar to that of their later descendants, the Central European Slavs, who lived and fought under similar conditions: the deployment of spearmen defended by big shields and backed by packs of skirmishers armed with sturdy bows. When in a favorable ground, the wild courage of these tribesmen and their terrifying reputation (the claims of their being cannibals appear to have had a solid basis) are added to the picture, the resulting combination is one than can prove very difficult to defeat.

Historically, Herodotos wrote about the Neuri and Boudinoi and placed them as northern neighbours of the European Scythians. Nowadays, many historians think they occupied the swamps and forests of Prippet and the upper Dnieper and associate them with advanced archeological cultures of the area. Features of those cultures are the use of iron weapons and a substantial influence from their southern Scythian neighbours. Some scholars consider the Neuri and Boudinoi the earliest known ancestors of the Proto-Slavs. In that case, their warrior class would have been plausibly called "Voinu", a proto-slavic word for "Warrior". In any case, they were fierce and wild opponents and cannibalism was apparently not foreign to them. Markings of teeth on human bones have been found in excavations and Herodotos wrote of the Androphagoi, the man-eaters. They are possibly the basis of the evil werewolves, man-eating wolf-people of later Slavic legend. In the historical past, whoever fought those tribes knew what terrible fate would befall them if they lost.

Yes, Voinu were cannibals. But Wolf isn't talking about Voinu, he is talking about Pontic Spearmen.

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Originally Posted by desert

Yes, Voinu were cannibals. But Wolf isn't talking about Voinu, he is talking about Pontic Spearmen.

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Oh, I see. Gosh, these forums are so confusing sometimes! :wall:

https://img99.imageshack.us/img99/99...balroaecz5.gif

These guys are absolutly suprisingly awesome. They have good attack/defense, high speed, large unit size and extraordinary moral. With a few chevrons of experience these guys can make excellent shock infantry.

btw these guys can beat a unit of principes 1v1 if they manage to let off all their javelins

If the principes let them launch all the javelins, they deserve to get beat.

Amen. And the chevrons stuff doesn't count.

iirc they have a really long throw range

Doesn't matter. Just don't pause to throw your pilum, then. Either those guys skirmish back, thus ceding position and the ability to throw or they eat a face full of angry Principes. And as stated, chevroned troops don't count. A fully-experienced levy phalanx will crush a just-trained elite phalanx any day of the week, for example.

I take back what I said about Thorakitai Hoplitai, they prove extremely usefull in sieges indeed.
And for some reason they are way more effective in guard mode when fighting open battles.

Makes me wonder if Machimoi (that native egyptian infantry) should be noted as suprisingly good. They sure are better than I expected em to be.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...spartiates.gif

This guy is definetely the best unit. He is good against everything. Perhaps, not the best in any certain area, but a good all-round trooper. Excelent Morale, Very Good Stamina, Good against cavalry, Good against infantry and able to eat a crapload of missiles for lunch. I have fought with these boys against terrible odds with the KH in VH/VH and they never disapointed me.

Well... they're Spartans. They're supposed to be good. This thread is for units that the game doesn't mention to be elite, but still end up kicking ass. You don't see anyone putting up elephants, do you?

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Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

You don't see anyone putting up elephants, do you?

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https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...n_elephant.gif

Surprinsingly bad unit. Very high recruitmencosts, high upkeep, die very fast against on of the cheapest units (Akontistai) and can run amok if not used correctly. That means you get a big Elephant, which needs much care, is very expensive and does a job which (except the frightens infantery/cavalery bonus) every cavaleryman with a xyston could do. You also have the risk, that it turns against your own men (one point more for the xystonboys).

Sure they look awesome and their charge is bigger then the one of a cavalery unit, but the high price makes them only to a "look how much money I have" unit. IMO they are not worth the money you need to recruit them. And I neither mentioned the two turns it takes to recruit them nor the limited recruitment area. But I have to admit it feels good to have the possibility to recruit them.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam