God, I only have but one prayer to ask of you "please let people read and formulate opinions based on logical books relating to the neurological and social sciences behind homosexuality, and not just the bible."
Amen.
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God, I only have but one prayer to ask of you "please let people read and formulate opinions based on logical books relating to the neurological and social sciences behind homosexuality, and not just the bible."
Amen.
Another shot across the bow from the crazysphere. Turns out it isn't the gay mafia that's to blame; it's anal sex.
If you take the heterosexual couples who engage in the practice which is sometimes "associated" with male gay marriage, I predict those couples will favor legal gay marriage to an astonishingly high degree. Their marriage is already "affiliated" with that practice, and so the notion of legally married gay men (and the practices which go along with that) does not constitute an extra and unwanted affiliation for their marriage ideal.
So girls, don't let your boys play with your butts, or they may wind up supporting gay marriage. Finally someone's making sense!
What difference does it make if homosexuality is an inevitable result of either a person's genes or upbringing?
Pretend for one moment that I am an employer. If you are an alcoholic, I am not going to employ you even if your father was a drunkard (purely upbringing). If you lack knowledge relevant to the job, I am not going to employ you whether or not its because you are naturally thick (genes) or you simply didn't get an education (upbringing). If you are mentally handicapped (purely genes), I am not going to employ you. If you are homosexual and act like an annoying drama queen, I am not going to employ you whether or not you chose to be homosexual or if it is in fact a result of your upbringing or genes.
Whether or not they can help it, I'm not going to pretend that homosexuals are no different from anyone else. I'll sympathise with their situation to an extent, but really they are not the only ones in life who got dealt a rubbish hand, and they should learn to deal with it like most others do. People with depression didn't choose to be depressed, its caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain - do we therefore demand that they be employed like anyone else even though they'll be useless half the time?
Okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Alcoholic: 1 issue
Lack Knowledge: 1 issue
Homosexual and an Annoying Drama Queen: 2 conflated issues
Would you choose not to hire them because they're homosexual? Or because they're an annoying drama queen? What if they're homosexual but not an annoying drama queen? What if they're heterosexual and an annoying drama queen?
Ajax
Who is making that argument? I don't believe I've seen it. For that matter, nobody argued that black people or Asian people or straight people are "no different from anyone else." Bit of a strawman, that, if you'll pardon me for saying so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
I can't think of any two people who are "no different from anyone else."
If homosexuality was no more than their sexual orientation, and the homosexual did not act like a drama queen or have the other annoying traits, I would hire them like anyone else (except in my Godly Republic where sodomy is illegal), and hope he changed his ways, though I wouldn't fire him if he didn't (nobody's perfect). If a heterosexual person acted like a drama queen, I wouldn't hire him.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxfetish
The issue is I think that homosexuals do overwhelmingly act like that, and since I view homosexuality as immoral I think this lack of morality often reflects itself in other areas of their character. So, I think the "2 conflated issues" are insperable, and are always seen to one degree or another. If some people supress their sexuality, I wouldn't be suprised if far more supress the traits to some extent to get along with everyone else.
It's a matter of degree, being homosexual seems to have a big impact upon people's character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Actually, as far as I know it's illegal in the UK to discriminate against someone with depression.
So I suppose you would have to hire the homosexual.
In any case, I have trouble believeing God is really worried about people's sexuality that much.
Homosexual men are different from heterosexual men in some ways, some of the time, in some cases.
Homosexual women seem a lot less different to heterosexual women.
So, I think you're most worried about the threat homosexual men pose to your notion of masculinity.
Unbelievable..Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Have you ever actually met a homosexual person or talked to one for a prolonged period of time? Because your views suggest you certainly haven't and if you have your carrying some sort of hate towards homosexuals which is quite apparent in your posts.
Here's how I see it, you might speak differently from someone, or act differently from someone but how does that give you the right to call their characteristics and the way they act as immoral?
I'm just struggling to see how you can call homosexuality immoral and a life style choice when scientific evidence proves it isn't and even if it was a life style choice, again why should you care so much? How does it effect you?
I think this suggests a considerable degree of naivety on your part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Ajax
We aren't talking about hiring though. That would be your business, literally. But gays marrying doesn't affect you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Folks:
Terms like "rape," "buttsex," etc. are pretty "loaded" words. None have been, at least clearly, mis-used or done purely for shock factor, but some of you ARE getting to close to that level. Please dial it back before this thread must retire.
The simple scientific truth behind the matter is that men who are so viciously against homosexuality either publicly or privately is most often because they themselves have personal issues with their own gender role, or have had homosexual experiences of their own. Most often hate crimes against homosexuals are committed by people who have either at one point had (sexual) relations with their victim, or have fantasized about having sexual relations with the victim. the most often heard rhetoric by the perpetrators of such crimes usually goes by something like "I can't be gay."
The Wright, Adam & Bernat Homophobia Scale test which were conducted at University of Georgia conclusively revealed that a very large percentage of men were homophobic in some way, but that the bottom 1/3 of test takers who were vehemently anti gay, and had considered themselves extremely pious Christians, also had the strongest homosexual urges (these men had been tested by showing images of homosexual activity while having their Genitals scaled by the Peter Meter.)
When the results were revealed to them, virtually all of them denied the results.
Be careful of who you hate on, and you can deny it all day long. But it doesn't make it true.
EDIT: I should add, that even if somebody does have these feelings, this does not make them gay in way, shape, or order. Cool your jets fellas.
People who are visciously against having onions in their food are most often secretly onions themselves - or the children of onion/human marriages that they don't want to talk about. They most likely dice onions at home and bathe in their juices as well. 78% of them have, at one point, had a sexual experience with an onion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakizashi
I know this because not only did I make it up, but it sounds good, demeans my opponents and adds to my arguement. Plus, I heard somewhere that a friend of a friend once read it in some sort of scientific article.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014Quote:
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
Would seem to be correlated more with bisexuality. Is just one study.Quote:
Department of Psychology, University of Georgia, Athens 30602-3013, USA.
The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
I thought part of the arguement was that acceptance of homosexuality would have nothing to do with increasing rates of homosexuality in general pop?. If 35 out of 64 heterosexual men could be converted to homosexuality based on that study, then wouldn't the arguement that people can't be converted to homosexuality from exclusive heterosexuality become less legitimate? It could also suggest that there is somethign to the notion that homosexuality can be positively or negatively reinforced with a major impact on overall levels in society - clearly of importance when determining a frivolous change in society's acceptance of alternatives to male/female relationships.
My larger point is that calling those who oppose homesexuality homosexuals is a bit childish.
Don't judge me.Quote:
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
It's okay, you can talk freely...we're all friends here.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlXII
How many layers was it? ~;)
Judging by my tongue.....4
and my point in opposing homosexuality because you have something against it, is also equally childish.Quote:
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
Yes I think homosexuality is immoral and so this means I'm probably gay. :wacko:
I'm not being "vehemently anti-homosexual", guess what I don't go and batter them in the streets. I'm just fed up with this PC bs because the fact is homosexuals do act differently from other people and if we accept this why can't I "discriminate" against them without the government clamping down?
I don't like homosexaul acts because I think they are immoral. I don't expect homosexuals to like me either, because they just think I'm a Puritan :daisy: that's out to spoil everyone's fun and tell me I'm a hypocrite, and so in their own way they think I'm immoral.
Your views are outdated. You also say all homosexuals act differently which isn't true and as I mentioned previously this shows you clearly haven't spent the time to talk to a homosexual person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
You also oppose Gay marriage which is hypocritical as they wont object to you marrying a women so what's wrong with the Gays marrying each other? Why are you so concerned by it?
The fact is if it's the whole religious aspect that worries you then surely it's up to the religious leaders or that particular church to decide weather they want to allow two people of the same sex to marry in their church. This should have no influence on the legal side of marriage whatsoever.
I also ask you to consider this, everyday hundreds of people marry not out of love, but for convenience. For example people marry to obtain citizenship. Now, according to you as long those two people involved are a man and a women it's ok? Yet if two people of the same sex who actually love each other want to get married that's not ok?
It's this kind of attitude that slows down the development of society, in a fashion similar to that often expressed during desegregation in the 1950s.], You say there's a difference but there really isn't. Not all gay people act differently yet your saying otherwise, [deleted portion]. If God really has such a problem with gay people then he needs to tell all us straight people to stop having gay children.
You know what's even more sad about this? If you do have children when your older and say one of them turns out to be gay then I really pity that child. But hey, maybe you could send him/her of the straight camp for the summer?
Veiws don't really become outdated. At least they don't become outdated due to time elapsed. If you are saying that a view is ignorant, that is one thing - but simply because we live in the year 2009 doesn't mean that we can't hold veiws that are at odds with conventional wisdom.
If Ryf was saying that the current year was 1789, his veiw would be outdated, otherwise I don't see that he is ignoring fact.
That there is no expiration date on veiws is what I'm trying to say.
Actually, I think you've got a pretty good point there. Some folks think that not liking a group of people makes you a homophobe, which is ridiculous. You are not required to like anyone. You are not required to accept anyone. People who say you have to do so haven't thought this through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
"Discrimination" is a word crying out for more careful, thoughtful use.
Rhyf, you have my sympathy, if not my full agreement. I've had way too many positive experiences with gay people in my life to ever paint them with a single, negative characteristic. At my last corporate job one of my all-time best workers was a gay dude. Who cares?
But you're absolutely correct, you are not required to like or approve of gay folk, and not approving does not make you a homophobe or discriminatory. It just means you're coming from your own place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
I keep meeting people that I assume are WAY gay, and they are great people, but it almost always turns out that they are just caring and rather effeminate heterosexuals, usually married with kids.
90% of the many homosexuals that I've met in my life, working in fashion and music (on Long Island), have seemed to have some type of mental illness. I can pick a few that were sweathearts, but clearly deranged by their experiences in childhood (which we would later talk about)
The most seriouly corrupt and sad people that I've met in my life have been homosexuals. That is a generalization that I feel comfortable making because it is based on my own empirical observation. They tend to be interesting, which is a plus - and almost always have flings on occasion with people of the opposite sex for short periods of time randomly - which is bizzare to me.
How do you know they had illness? Thats like me assuming everyone in New York is a cross between Joe Pesci and Jeff Goldblum.Quote:
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
If I start looking pale and throwing up, you can tell that I am ill. Ill as in not well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
TuffStuff, you're perfectly free to arrive at whatever conclusions you like; this is a (relatively) free country, after all. But others may look at you stigmatizing an entire segment of the population and declaring them "sick" and "corrupt" and call you names such as "homophobe" and "bigot." That is their right.
I don't have a problem with either case, and I worry that people want to legislate any of it away. Free, frank and brutal speech is what makes the gears of the mind click. I vehemently oppose Hate Speech legislation for this reason, as well as Hate Crimes.
Freedom includes the freedom to hate, disapprove, arrive at ludicrous conclusions and call people names. (So long as you're willing to take the chaff that will come your way for saying such things.)
Having lived the majority of my life in big cities (Chicago and New York) I've come into contact with more gay men and women than I can count. Some were great people, some were okay people, and some were real scumbags. Kinda like the rest of the population. I don't see a productive purpose to making sweeping generalizations about them, and I don't see how you can possibly hope to be accurate.
That said, it's your God-given right to conclude as you like, so rawk on!
What a lot of hatred in this thread.
Lemur' got a point, it's a free country / world and all that. But it all makes me feel very uncomfortable.
Thank God we can safely assume non of the gay-bashers here are Christians, because Christians know the virtues of charity and compassion. :2thumbsup:
It's not hatred I just disapprove of homosexuality and I think I should be allowed to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Anyway, most people I know are not Christians and they don't like gay people either. Plus my parents are atheists and they think they should all be locked up so I wish people would stop saying "OMG Christians don't approve of everything so they must be hateful!!!".
I'll work with homosexuals just like Jesus did with prostitutes, but I won't deny that what they are doing is sinful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Where the hell do you live?
Rural England?