Shooting At Ft.Hood

Right.
When a normal american goes nuts and kills people he has psychological problems
When a muslim american goes nuts and kills people he was idealogical driven.

He was even serving in the american army - how do you connect that with your idealogy.

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I know what Jihad means, and I know about the greater and lesser Jihad. Thank you for asserting that I am ignorant for disagreeing with you. :bow:
Crusades and Jihads are quite different from each other (something I am sure you know), but I do not understand what Crusades have to do with anything. I think that in your zeal you have read far too much into what I said. I am not condemning "Eastern" things as you seem to imply, nor am I condemning muslims. Most of this thread has been devoted to arguing that religion did not play a role. I simply pointed out that yes, religion was a factor. And I did not say that anyone who says Allah Akhbar is a "Jihadi", that is you again reading too much into my posts. I said that someone who has a record of defending terrorists and condemning wars against them shouting it before he breaks out shooting his "comrades" is a pretty good sign that he is a Jihadist. There is a really big difference.

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Ok, my zeal may be the result of Fragony being over your shoulder and I can't let the sorts of things he peddles go by un-opposed. :dizzy2:

I appologise :sweatdrop:

If you read the Al jazeera article I posted above, it does paint a picture of his motiviations which does acknowledge the suspect's faith and the identification with his ancestral culture in some way.

Nonetheless, saying Allahu Akbar is no indication of being a Jihadi.

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Originally Posted by Agent Miles

Human tragedy has no politics or religion. My condolences to all families concerned, even Hasan’s. Who can really say why some men hide their personal demons behind wider causes? Cowards pretend to be heroes and psychotics pretend to be psychiatrists. Everyone can join our Army, but by no means is an Army life for everyone. In February ’03 my wife and I sat in that theater on Fort Hood for my retirement briefing and we sat in the hallway of the Soldier Support Center across the street to out-process. This morning on every military post, they saluted the flag and went right back to training for the next mission.

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Yeah, there is always a nut behind tragedies like this, but you are ignoring what motivates them. Yeah, politics and religion DO play a role. Look at Nazis, look at Crusades and Jihads (right or wrong, they resulted in enormous human loss), look at the horrors committed by the USSR. How can you say that politics and religion do not play a role?

I think both the shooters psychological condition and his belief in radical Islam pushed him over the edge. Thank God he did not get sent to Afghanistan where he would have had access to more powerful weapons.

WTH? A shoutout??

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Yeah, there is always a nut behind tragedies like this, but you are ignoring what motivates them. Yeah, politics and religion DO play a role. Look at Nazis, look at Crusades and Jihads (right or wrong, they resulted in enormous human loss), look at the horrors committed by the USSR. How can you say that politics and religion do not play a role?

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It can become a perversion of a valid discsussion

JVA-He’s not motivated by anything larger than himself. He’s a coward pretending to be a soldier, a psychotic pretending to be a psychiatrist and a murderer pretending to be a holy warrior. He’s not the enemy; he’s just a pathetic failure hiding his insignificance behind a headline.

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Originally Posted by Fixiwee

Right.
When a normal american goes nuts and kills people he has psychological problems
When a muslim american goes nuts and kills people he was idealogical driven.

He was even serving in the american army - how do you connect that with your idealogy.

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Careful saying things like that round here. You might get your post deleted and get a warning :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Agent Miles

JVA-He’s not motivated by anything larger than himself. He’s a coward pretending to be a soldier, a psychotic pretending to be a psychiatrist and a murderer pretending to be a holy warrior. He’s not the enemy; he’s just a pathetic failure hiding his insignificance behind a headline.

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This pretty much sums it up.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Careful saying things like that round here. You might get your post deleted and get a warning :laugh4:

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People are always driven by something. Some times it is trying to get revenge for abuse as a child, some times it is wanting revenge against the government, other times it is religion. No one is saying that religion is his motivation because he is muslim, that has nothing to do with it. They are saying it was his motivation because he made it clear that it was.

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Originally Posted by Agent Miles

JVA-He’s not motivated by anything larger than himself. He’s a coward pretending to be a soldier, a psychotic pretending to be a psychiatrist and a murderer pretending to be a holy warrior. He’s not the enemy; he’s just a pathetic failure hiding his insignificance behind a headline.

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Even cowards need motivation and something to believe it to motivate their cowardly selfs to make a sacrafice. Those radical things they cling to as excuses are dangerous, because that gives them the excuse and courage to do what they want to do. And really, do you think that if he did not believe in radical islam that he would have done that? Probably not, so it is important.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

It can become a perversion of a valid discsussion

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No, taking things (anything) out of context can. As long as that is not done, it is a relevant part of the discussion. What about deliberately ignoring an important part of situation? Can that be a perversion of the discussion?

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

And really, do you think that if he did not believe in radical islam that he would have done that?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Andres

Yes.

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We know that radical islam motivated him, if it was not there, then what would have motivated him to shoot his fellow soldiers like that? Did you ever think that radical islam was the reason that he was afraid to go overseas?

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Even cowards need motivation and something to believe it to motivate their cowardly selfs to make a sacrafice. Those radical things they cling to as excuses are dangerous, because that gives them the excuse and courage to do what they want to do. And really, do you think that if he did not believe in radical islam that he would have done that? Probably not, so it is important.

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I'm afraid there is a fair precendent of people going on a bloody rampage in the US (and elsewhere) without a connection to Islam. Islamic extremists don't have a monopoly of violence in any context.

To my mind, he may have come to the opinion that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan -or their implementation were unjust, or something he wanted no part in. As a civilian, he might have been a conscientious objector perhaps. It seems he repeatedly resisted posting to either war and in failing to avoid going, presumably he simply couldn't take it and snapped.

As a soldier, he had free access to the fort, training and presumably easy access to weapons.

This is more telling of shell shock than of Islam.

We send these boys out and expect them to come back just the same. 99% of the populace doesn't feel the war at all it's just something that happening.

This is directly tied in to the high suicide rate of returning vets. You don't think this Pshycatrist heard those horror stories?

Blaming Islam is a cop out for people who don't want to admit there is a real problem with the military and PTSD.

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Originally Posted by alh_p

I'm afraid there is a fair precendent of people going on a bloody rampage in the US (and elsewhere) without a connection to Islam. Islamic extremists don't have a monopoly of violence in any context.

To my mind, he may have come to the opinion that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan -or their implementation were unjust, or something he wanted no part in. As a civilian, he might have been a conscientious objector perhaps. It seems he repeatedly resisted posting to either war and in failing to avoid going, presumably he simply couldn't take it and snapped.

As a soldier, he had free access to the fort, training and presumably easy access to weapons.

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Of course there are other motivation, but what I am saying is that this was his, so the others are really not important to this discussion unless they may have also motivated him. You make a good point, but you forget, was the reason he object because of his belief if radical islam? I think there is a good chance of that. If so, take radical islam away and there are no motivations for him to do this that we know of.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

This is more telling of shell shock than of Islam.

We send these boys out and expect them to come back just the same. 99% of the populace doesn't feel the war at all it's just something that happening.

This is directly tied in to the high suicide rate of returning vets. You don't think this Pshycatrist heard those horror stories?

Blaming Islam is a cop out for people who don't want to admit there is a real problem with the military and PTSD.

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Not really Strike, there are many military shrinks out there and they do not do this. Hearing horror stories can make you feel sorry for your fellow soldiers and get depressed, but it doesn't lead you to murder them (while screaming a religious phrase). Yes, you are right, it may have let to a mental break down that depressed him enough to not care about himself, but it looks like what actually motivated him to murder his fellow soldiers was his belief in radical islam. You have to remember Strike, there are moderate muslims who do not feel like they have to kill non-muslims, and then there are the fundamentalists who do. Islamic fundamentalists are dangerous, because they feel that it is their duty. Horror stories may have depressed him and cause him mental anxiety, but it seems to be fundamentalist islam that motivated him to become a murderer. You cannot ignore the danger that fundamentalist islam (or any other radical set of beliefs that can motivate people to do things like this) poses to society. And no, of course that is not the only one, but it is the one relevant to this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Of course there are other motivation, but what I am saying is that this was his, so the others are really not important to this discussion unless they may have also motivated him. You make a good point, but you forget, was the reason he object because of his belief if radical islam? I think there is a good chance of that. If so, take radical islam away and there are no motivations for him to do this that we know of.

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I'm afraid I disagree, I think there are other reasons equally as plausible -if not more so- than "radical" Islam. See what Strike For The South just said on PTSD for one, I would add a couple of moral ones:

• Objection to the wars on the grounds of legitimacy (albeit strange for a soldier to let this stop them)
• Objection to the wars because of the suspect's identification with his Middle eastern or Muslim ancestory and culture and a desire to play no part in what could be perceived as harming it
• There are widespread reports of his devout religiosity. You probably know that Islam teaches against harming other Muslims -that's a perfectly plausible religious reason enough for him not to want to go to Iraq or Afghanistan

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Originally Posted by alh_p

I'm afraid I disagree, I think there are other reasons equally as plausible -if not more so- than "radical" Islam. See what Strike For The South just said on PTSD for one, I would add a couple of moral ones:

• Objection to the wars on the grounds of legitimacy (albeit strange for a soldier to let this stop them)
• Objection to the wars because of the suspect's identification with his Middle eastern or Muslim ancestory and culture and a desire to play no part in what could be perceived as harming it
• There are widespread reports of his devout religiosity. You probably know that Islam teaches against harming other Muslims -that's a perfectly plausible religious reason enough for him not to want to go to Iraq or Afghanistan

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Yes, that is a religious reason for not wanting to go to Iraq, but what about murdering his fellow soldiers? Yeah, you are right, religious, but not the same type that most people follow.

It's possible that his religion was the tipping point. Not because being muslim makes people go crazy, but because it feeds into the inner conflict he may have had about the war/deployment/harrassment etc. I doubt we'll know unless we find a diary of some sort. So it's certainly part of the story.

But Vuk, by blaming radical islam you are putting the cart before the horse.

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Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

WTH? A shoutout??

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So Mr George is frightened by slang, hand me a hanky.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

It's possible that his religion was the tipping point. Not because being muslim makes people go crazy, but because it feeds into the inner conflict he may have had about the war/deployment/harrassment etc. I doubt we'll know unless we find a diary of some sort. So it's certainly part of the story.

But Vuk, by blaming radical islam you are putting the cart before the horse.



So Mr George is frightened by slang, hand me a hanky.

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Not necassarily, because his conflict over the war and deployment may be due to his religion. I don't know either way, which is why I have been careful to say "I think" etc. We will probably find out soon.

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Yes, that is a religious reason for not wanting to go to Iraq, but what about murdering his fellow soldiers?

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Yeah but that's it, it's not a rational decision. Just like the sad list of rampages/massacres in schools and such, we write those perpertrators off as psycopaths/sociopaths.

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Yeah, you are right, religious, but not the same type that most people follow.

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I'm not sure I understand this, what do you mean?

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Not really Strike, there are many military shrinks out there and they do not do this. Hearing horror stories can make you feel sorry for your fellow soldiers and get depressed, but it doesn't lead you to murder them (while screaming a religious phrase). Yes, you are right, it may have let to a mental break down that depressed him enough to not care about himself, but it looks like what actually motivated him to murder his fellow soldiers was his belief in radical islam. You have to remember Strike, there are moderate muslims who do not feel like they have to kill non-muslims, and then there are the fundamentalists who do. Islamic fundamentalists are dangerous, because they feel that it is their duty. Horror stories may have depressed him and cause him mental anxiety, but it seems to be fundamentalist islam that motivated him to become a murderer. You cannot ignore the danger that fundamentalist islam (or any other radical set of beliefs that can motivate people to do things like this) poses to society. And no, of course that is not the only one, but it is the one relevant to this discussion.

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And you have to remember the suicides and homicides commtied by returning vets borders on ridiculous. Religon may have been the tipping point but you don't rise to major with out some major background+pschyatric checks.

If we simply blame this on muslims we are doing our men in uniform a great diservice. A cry for help will be overshawdowed by a name and that's the tragedy here. More hate and no help.

America loves to claim we love our vets and now is the time to show the world we do. It's time to sack up and take responsibilty.

I'm sure religon had a role in this killing but there is simply more than "He was a muslim, that's why"

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Everyone feels hostile toward people at times. The difference between a sane and insane person is A) Why they feel that way. and B) How they actually act. He obviously had mental problems if he was so committed that he would give up his own life (which he obviously knew would happen). Did anyone ever consider that if he was a religious extremist, the reason he did it may be so he did not have to fight his fellow terrorists in the Middle East? That would explain why he was so afraid of going over. He would feel like a traitor.

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So everybody who ever committed manslaughter would be completely insane then?

If he just didn't want to go to the middle east he could have just shot himself, if he was an extremist, he probably had better means at his disposal and why would he have actually helped US soldiers?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

This is more telling of shell shock than of Islam.

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If I recall correctly, it is necessary to see combat to have shell shock.

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Originally Posted by Fixiwee

Right.
When a normal american goes nuts and kills people he has psychological problems
When a muslim american goes nuts and kills people he was idealogical driven.

He was even serving in the american army - how do you connect that with your idealogy.

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No, his religion is of no consequence unless he made statements to the effect that his religion did play a role, which Hasan did. Ergo, the logical conclusion from past comments made by Hasan is that his faith did play a role. This doesn't mean all Muslims are like this, but it does mean he was motivated in part by radical Islam, or at least used it as an excuse. If we want to understand the shooting, that is just as relevant as any psychological disorders he may or may not have had.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

If I recall correctly, it is necessary to see combat to have shell shock.

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The man was a psychatrist who saw hunderds of these cases. I'm sure religon may have been the catalyst for this case but all reports say he had become "more" muslim as the years went on.

Make no mistake the man is a coward who should spend the rest of his life being raped and Islam played a role in this but I don't think it was the only thing nor the driving one.

Funny how quick people are to say: "It's Islam's fault", while the thread below this one is about parents letting their children die. Funny that nobody states "It's Christianity's fault", while the causes are in both cases religious.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Funny how quick people are to say: "It's Islam's fault", while the thread below this one is about parents letting their children die. Funny that nobody states "It's Christianity's fault", while the causes are in both cases religious.

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Do you think Islam had anything to do with this?

Funny how it seems like some people, when they find out that one of the motivations for a murderer might be Islam, suddenly stop wanting to discuss the shooter's motivations.

Every time a mass shooting story pops up, we here at the Org like to play amateur psychiatrist and discuss what made a person do it.

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What's the difference with the other wacko's who kill people for no reason? The result stays the same, doesn't it? Alot of innocent people dead because of the madness of one person.

Why is the fact that this man was a muslim so important for you? Why is it relevant? Why does it matter?

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But I guess that all ends when one of the motivations might be politically incorrect. :rolleyes:

Why does it matter? Really? One useful thing you can do after something like this is to determine the cause; try to find out why the shooter did what he did and see if you can prevent it in the future.

Deciding to put on blinders and ignore the motivations because you might not like what you see is not smart.

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So Mr George is frightened by slang, hand me a hanky.

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That's not the point - the point is Obama said he would be speaking about a mass shooting and opened with a joking manner and talked about some interior department deal.

CR

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Originally Posted by tibilicus

I'm pretty certain that this is the first case of a US born Muslim performing such an atrocity. .

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WRONG!!! This has happen numerous times its just that its not highly reported because everyone is afraid of offending this cult and its members. Thank Jesus Christ God all Mighty that Islam is a peacefull religion or we would all be ####**!!!:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Careful saying things like that round here. You might get your post deleted and get a warning :laugh4:

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I know how you feel. Allah Akbar by brother...