Israel kills to Maintain Blockade

Regardless of how stupid and provacative the activists may have been, the way Israel has handled this is outrageous - if it turns out that the activists really were carrying guns I'll retract that, but I'd be really surprised if that's the case.

One smallish thing that surprised me is that most of the involved activists were Turks, but that the boats left harbour from (Greek) Cyprus.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

One smallish thing that surprised me is that most of the involved activists were Turks, but that the boats left harbour from (Greek) Cyprus.

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I believe it left port from northern(turkish) Cyprus, not southern(greek) Cyprus.

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/verden/1.7147093

Not the most peaceful "aid flotilla" apparently.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I believe it left port from northern(turkish) Cyprus, not southern(greek) Cyprus.

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Hmmm....

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE64R19P.htm

Seems you're right.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

'Israel fell into the trap', yes, that I think is my overriding sentiment. How could they be so unprofessional? I think everybody could've seen this coming. Israel was way too eager to respond to the provocation.

People have died, they've got the martyrs they sought, Israel has been lured into bullying again, it's a pr disaster, Israeli - Turkish relations have been undermined. All the goals of Israel's enemies have been achieved, I'd say.

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

That's how it looks from here, as well. With the tiny exception that the supplies were diverted to Israel first, as was their insistence.

-edit-
So Israel wins the logistics and tactics games, but loses the strategy and public-relations games.

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Originally Posted by Andres

Maybe Israel would think more about pr implications, if a certain superpower would stop vetoing UN resolutions taken against them.

Maybe there is something to say to get rid of the veto power for the permanent members of the security council. That is, if the intention is to have a UN that is to be taken serious.

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Yes Andres, the Security Council veto game is played by all sides. It's how the superpowers play their proxie wars and global political games. If by some miracle the permanent members agreed to do as you suggest do you feel these type of conflicts can be resolved?

What do you suggest to take the council's place?

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Originally Posted by Viking

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/verden/1.7147093

Not the most peaceful "aid flotilla" apparently.

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Bah, the Gaza demonstrators last winter did worse, and none of them were killed in response.

Interstingly if you check the registery of all the vessels you will find two American, two Greek an one Irish boat and a Turkish one too, obviously Israel could not risk boarding any boat but the Turkish one

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

Interstingly if you check the registery of all the vessels you will find two American, two Greek an one Irish boat and a Turkish one too, obviously Israel could not risk boarding any boat but the Turkish one

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All boats were boarded. Only the Turkish one offered stiff resistence.

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Originally Posted by Jolt

All boats were boarded. Only the Turkish one offered stiff resistence.

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There it is then seems to me like a group of genuine humanitarians were codded by this Turkish group who were only interested in causing an international incident

No one appreciated the clever wit from my response. I am going to sulk. Later.

Lâ.

The turkish ship "Mavi Marmara" (Blue Marmara) was the head ship of the fleet. Boarding it would mean taking control of the whole fleet, so Israeli army prioritized her, with some killings here and there you know. Israeli demonstrated a bunch o' slingshots and marbles as means of brutal resistance.

Moreover, there are obviously reasonal comments such as "Israel fell into the trap". Sorry but what will happen ?

WHAT HAS HAPPENED UNTIL TODAY, HOW DIFFERENT IS THIS ONE AND WHAT CAN BE THE SUFFERING OF THEM SO THAT WE COULD CALL THIS A TRAP ?

Israel, the bully boy of the mafioso father Sam, will be terrorizing the area just as he wishes to. Thoroughly emotionallY and impulsively. 'Cause they resemble the controlling outpost for USA to mess with whole Middle East until oil runs out.

Bleh. Israel fell into the trap my arse.

Here we have it, yet again another act of state-terrorism and murder, Israe; has really shot itself in the head this time. I hope this leads to the expulsion of Israeli diplomate from all across Europe and Asia and a strong demand from the EU that Israel cease its illegal and murderous siege on Gaza.
Israel is now a complete international pariah, what is so shameful is that it took so long for this to be the case, at the cost of too many lives.

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Originally Posted by Default the Magyar

Here we have it, yet again another act of state-terrorism and murder, Israe; has really shot itself in the head this time. I hope this leads to the expulsion of Israeli diplomate from all across Europe and Asia and a strong demand from the EU that Israel cease its illegal and murderous siege on Gaza.
Israel is now a complete international pariah, what is so shameful is that it took so long for this to be the case, at the cost of too many lives.

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Oh come on Israel isn't really the bad guy in the bigger perspective. They've had the blockade since 2007 because that's when Hamas took control and refused to say that they would not continue their conflict with Israel. Well guess what if you say you are going to kill people then they are not going to let aid get to you are they?

Of course, Israel was out of line here, they really don't do PR. They should never have boarded a ship in international waters (although I'll be cautious on that point as Kukri recommended), and they could have dealt with this without the excessive force and killing.

But on the wider scale there's no need for such anti-Israel raging.

What benefit did non-anti-Israelism bring up to now, sire ?

Are we expecting USA to give up on Israel, UN to act as it is supposed to ? Mushrooms, anyone ?

Not advocating the bashing of another country here but isn't it obvious that this international inertia feeds anti-semitism ?

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Oh come on Israel isn't really the bad guy in the bigger perspective. They've had the blockade since 2007 because that's when Hamas took control and refused to say that they would not continue their conflict with Israel. Well guess what if you say you are going to kill people then they are not going to let aid get to you are they?

Of course, Israel was out of line here, they really don't do PR. They should never have boarded a ship in international waters (although I'll be cautious on that point as Kukri recommended), and they could have dealt with this without the excessive force and killing.

But on the wider scale there's no need for such anti-Israel raging.

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Bollocks. Hamas "took control", ha! Hamas one the lections, it is Fatah that took control because the West is too pathetic to accept that democracy does not mean a load of ass-kissing prats all the time. Israel is the bad guy in the bigger perspective, Israel continues to steal land from the Palestinians and continues it's illegal "blockade" of Gaza, no sir, Israel is what one may term, evil.

At any rate Israel is still considered the occupying force of the Gaza strip...

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Originally Posted by Default the Magyar

Bollocks. Hamas "took control", ha! Hamas one the lections, it is Fatah that took control because the West is too pathetic to accept that democracy does not mean a load of ass-kissing prats all the time. Israel is the bad guy in the bigger perspective, Israel continues to steal land from the Palestinians and continues it's illegal "blockade" of Gaza, no sir, Israel is what one may term, evil.

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Their democratic election isn't relevant here, not so long as they officially state that they want to wipe a country of the face of the earth, then bitch when that same country refuses to let supplies get to them!

As for the bigger picture, it is complicated, far from black and white. As I said earlier, Palestine was a backwater long before either the Zionists or the 'Palestinians' as we call the various Arab economic migrants today arrived. These people in Gaza aren't the original Palestinian people you know, they weren't kicked off their land during the initial creation of the Israeli state. As I said earlier, Palestine was a backwater before the Jews and the Arabs which we call 'Palestianians' today arrived, and both the native Jews/Muslims actually identified as Palestianian.

The idea of Zionists v the purely Muslim Palestinians is a quite modern concept, a hostility which exploded over time and had not been there initially. In many ways it is similar to the situation with Scots settlers in Ireland, people forget how much they integrated with the native population for several decades, and then suddenly ethnic violence came out of nowhere.

hmmm, six hours later, and nothing substantive to change my opinion.

still a blockade run that violently resisted a boarding party from a nation that feared the convoy offered succour to a hostile power.

*fails to care*

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Way to miss the point; the Israelis were vastly outnumbered by people with deadly weapons.

Oh, and US (Boston) police manage to kill rioters, or rather bystanders, who aren't even attacking police, just rioting and causing some property damage.

CR

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Deadly weapons?

lol..

I also find it funny how the official US response and the response from certain US posters here has been "they deserved it". Tell me, your country was quick to condemn us (the UK) on Bloody Sunday and yet here your quite content to keep your mouths shut. Do successive US administrations and evidently some posters here find themselves excusing some actions but condemning others when it suits them?

I guess the way it works in the USA is you look out for your own, that means certain groups which wiled influence in politics, the Israeli lobby in this case and the Irish lobby in the case of Bloody Sunday. And you wonder why many from outside the US look down on such double standards. I guess the USA and Israel really are a match made in heaven. Although it has to be said, we really have enjoyed being your lapdog for the past couple of years.

Seeing the video at the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/mid...t/10199480.stm

I can say with good confidence that if a US police officer found himself in a similar situation on land (surrounded and being attacked by people with weapons) they would have opened fire as well.

And seeing the way the 'humanitarian activists' reacted, I can't say I'm overwhelmed with grief. What do you expect when you attack soldiers with guns?

CR

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Originally Posted by Fragony

You lefties and your simple minds..

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Me the one with a simple mind? I'm afraid your the one who must suffer some form of mental retardation if you think I'm a leftie. Evidently I used to be more left-wing than I am now but ask any of the UK posters here, Furunculus, PCV, Beskar ect or read some of my posts and you will find I'm actually centre-right on the political spectrum.

Oh no Frag, there's a clear difference between my idea of centre-right thinking and yours. I try and base mine on rational and logic, although evidently I will be the first to admit that I'm not a model poster, I don't claim to be either. The difference is that I try and reason when coming to a conclusion, indeed I've tried to reason on this and as I stated previously, my position still stands, I have no problem with Israel checking ships, as long as they do it properly. My views are based on the evidence before me, yours are based on a hate for anything Arab/Muslim.

By the way, it's good to see you say you support the people of Iran in your signature. I wonder what they would make of your views about their religion. I imagine you wouldn't last to long in central Tehran, after you denounce their religion as wacky.

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Originally Posted by tibilicus

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Originally Posted by Fragony

You lefties and your simple minds..

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Me the one with a simple mind? I'm afraid your the one who must suffer some form of mental retardation if you think I'm a leftie.

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I'm fairly certain Fragony was referring to leftwing fondness of songs about displaced, oppressed peoples by the Simple Minds.


:nice:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I'm fairly certain Fragony was referring to leftwing fondness of songs about displaced, oppressed peoples by the Simple Minds.


:nice:

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Going of his previous comments about "lefties", I highly doubt it..

Which is still besides the point, seeming my political views certainly aren't "lefty".

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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

Unarmed civilians on a civilized ship get attacked by Israeli army and end up dead, therefore my expressions are disgusting ?

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As usual, Seamus is infinitely wiser than myself, so I'll just say that your comment, and doubling back to defend it, speaks volumes towards your character and let it go. :shame:

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Originally Posted by Viking

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/verden/1.7147093

Not the most peaceful "aid flotilla" apparently.

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This should put to rest any claims of these being "peaceful, humanitarian civilians". This should also serve as a lesson to other Turks looking in the future to meddle in, err, "peacefully protest" other nation's affairs. When you attack and beat people viciously with iron pipes who happen to be holding guns, you're going to get shot.

Fragony has a tendency to place "Left" as equal to "Muslim Lovers".

I think it was in another recent thread.. the one done by Menedil is where he says this.

As you are supporting "Muslims" (Palestine), it means you must be a lefty in that equation.

Thanks god they were peaceful humanitarian protesters. Imagine what would have happened with a bunch of suicidal morons trying to do a PR push.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

In many ways it is similar to the situation with Scots settlers in Ireland, people forget how much they integrated with the native population for several decades, and then suddenly ethnic violence came out of nowhere.

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Much of that violence was attributable to the earlier Stuart and Tudor policies, the economic and property imperative on both sides was unfortunately a major plus in both sides calculations for violence. There is indeed a disheartening level of history having the exact same pattern here too in a generic sense

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Originally Posted by tibilicus

Deadly weapons?

lol..

I also find it funny how the official US response and the response from certain US posters here has been "they deserved it". Tell me, your country was quick to condemn us (the UK) on Bloody Sunday and yet here your quite content to keep your mouths shut. Do successive US administrations and evidently some posters here find themselves excusing some actions but condemning others when it suits them?

I guess the way it works in the USA is you look out for your own, that means certain groups which wiled influence in politics, the Israeli lobby in this case and the Irish lobby in the case of Bloody Sunday. And you wonder why many from outside the US look down on such double standards. I guess the USA and Israel really are a match made in heaven. Although it has to be said, we really have enjoyed being your lapdog for the past couple of years.

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While it is tempting to draw parallels with the Northern Conflict I would advise against it the world was a different place then it is now, I would prefer not to derail the thread with nuggets of info on Bloody Sunday etc so I will leave it there.

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

While it is tempting to draw parallels with the Northern Conflict I would advise against it the world was a different place then it is now, I would prefer not to derail the thread with nuggets of info on Bloody Sunday etc so I will leave it there.

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Agreed, completely different in many ways. I simply wanted to draw attention to what is often the case of the USA being two faced on foreign affairs when it comes to pleasing certain sections of the US electorate.

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Originally Posted by tibilicus

Deadly weapons?

lol..

I also find it funny how the official US response and the response from certain US posters here has been "they deserved it". Tell me, your country was quick to condemn us (the UK) on Bloody Sunday and yet here your quite content to keep your mouths shut. Do successive US administrations and evidently some posters here find themselves excusing some actions but condemning others when it suits them?

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Yes, deadly weapons. Go look at the videos. As for the violent activists who attacked soldiers with guns; that's what happens. I find it hard to be overcome with grief when the activists brought this on themselves by attacking, violently and en masse, soldiers with guns.

As for people accusing the US of being a puppet of Israel; guess which nation not only didn't veto but supported a UN resolution aimed at making the Middle East nuke free, aimed squarely at Israel (and ignoring Iran)?

CR