yeah with that money you could easily just conquer the world..
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yeah with that money you could easily just conquer the world..
Trust me guys, it works, and yes, it is worth the effort. It just requires a minimum of gaming skill and logical thought. Germanic warships are not as expensive as quinquiremes.
The whole Germanic navy thing is an interesting question. I have also done the 6 warship, retrain over and over and slowly crush all. It is very expensive as they say- 5,400 mnai per turn roughly the cost of an entire good army, plus the very high costs of retraining. The savings I think depend, if you build advanced trading ports at Swebotraust and other cities then any blockade of a key port can cost maybe 2,000 per turn or so. So while conquering the pirates is prestigious, the 5,400 + retrains is IMO a bit hard to justify. Another cost-saver naval option is to just train 1 transport fleet, and leapfrog from port to port and sneak around the Jutland peninsula and finally secure a single ship in the port at Bagacos. From there one can do infinite army transports into Britain, still ending the ship's turn safely back in Bagacos. This way one invests the minimum in a navy for the maximum benefit of conquering the Casse and getting the druidic university at Ynys Mon, druidic healers are extremely beneficial for Sweboz generals.Quote:
Originally Posted by athanaric
Well I'm very good with the economy and I can actually afford bribing enemy armies and keeping ships at the same time, even with this faction. The important thing to remember is that EB economy requires careful management and that you should not build too many armies. It also really pays to use realistic armies instead of swordsmen spam.
well according to this thread cost/benefit we should just have entire armies full of nothing but untrained adolescent males, die jugundiz :P
herm athanaric we always have to sacrifice something particulary with the sweaboz we can´t have money developed city´s (as in constructing every turn) armies and navy´s normally and in my own personal experience we can only have 1 of those with sweaboz
we might have more with ptolomaiois seulekids or any balkan faction after they build the mines but with barbarians we normally can´t have it all both because mines aren´t enough for everything and because they can only build L1 mines (wich is ofc what i deslike the most about barbarians)
Not to mention that, if you can't outflank them, silver shields and other elite pikemen are almost impossible to beat back with non-phalanx units.Quote:
Originally Posted by fomalhaut
I've had silver shields hold bridges and city streets against impossible odds. Most impressive feat was having a 2 bronze chevron silver shields unit holding a bridge practically by itself (only other units that scored kills in that battle were 2 units of toxotai) vs. a whole roman fullstack and losing under 10 men (on huge).
It only applies to BI. but a heavily aromured unit in "shield_wall" formation can push through any kind of phalangitai, though with quite a causalities ( guard mod "on" ). First i thought, hey, that seems like an exploit against the poor AI, but then i saw the Romans breaking my phalanx line ( playing Epirotes, most of my phalangitai were the Deuteroi levies, though ). It´s kind of scarry to see the Roman units reforming on the battlefield, and arranging all their heavy infantry in shield_wall formation ( those manouvers somehow remembered me on that scene from the old "Spartacus" movie during the last battle ).
that's pretty dang cool actually, reminds me of heraclaeum or something
Romani scarry? Not at all in EB :-PQuote:
Originally Posted by vollorix
In my game (and in most as I read in other posts) they get destroyed.I am willing to try and see why they get so easily PWNED by Carthage and Spain.
I started a game with the Britons (VH/VH) but I got crushed early rounds.All towns had such big armies giving a 2:1 odds in favor of the AI.Tried a siege with all I had (London left empty :-P) Rebels sent help immediately - great, lol.I might try this save again, to find the solution but from what I saw Britons must lack in units.At least their spear throwers/chariot generals suck badly.
their chariots are the best in the game or so it is said. btw Ksifos, i suggest playing Pahlava. probably the best EB campaign i've had yet, such a diverse set of enemies, locales and units, as well as personally overseeing their transition from nomads to a settled neo persian empire. also the best horsemen ever.
or if you really like the Hellenes, play as Baktria. so awesome playing as Greeks at the end of the world.
Well if you used the generals to charge into enemy infantry than you are correct, they suck, but they aren't melee cav, they are frightening skirmisher cav... breaking enemy morale, strengtheneing your guys' morale and all the while throwing some javelins ;) and if you need, send them through the enemy ranks, cluster them and send a unit of teceitos right behind... watch them wreak havoc on scared, disoriented foes...
and their infantry? the only unit of them that lacks a bit are their archers, they're more distraction than action...
Gueroas are good file infantry, botaroas are nice heavy infantry and from there on it get's only better... Milnaht, Calawre all class units, although I usually do the conquering of britain with just gueroas, botaroas, sotaroas and some caledonian skirmishers (they are great skirmishers imo)
If controlled by the human player, Romani can dominate all others easily. It's the AI's inherent push northwards and its reliance on autoresolve that poses a problem for AI controlled Romans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksifos
They don't. It's your own fault if you play on VH battle modus. VH is retarded as the AI just gets massive stat boni. Better start up a game on VH/M.Quote:
I might try this save again, to find the solution but from what I saw Britons must lack in units.At least their spear throwers/chariot generals suck badly.
Casse units are very versatile and useful and that applies to their chariots, too.
Here's some pointers as to how to use Gaeroas. Check out the "usage" section.
I wasn´t talking about campaign AI but about about 15 units of Princeps, Triarii and PE reforming on the battlefield into a, partly "trippled", shieldwall formation just to march through my phalangitai units. I had cavalry advantage, i had couple of experienced slingers to give those high armoured units the rest once they are pinned by my battle line, but instead they have managed to rout about 2/3 of my phalangitai ( all of deuteroi ), heavily depleted Pezetaeroi, while only my own hoplites in shieldwall formation were able to resist their push. Even surrounded, they were impossible to attack since they were stacked in those shieldwall formations, building kind of massive square. The scary thing was to watch how the AI perfectly adopted to fighting quite large phalangitai line, guarded on the flanks. And btw: you would normaly expect the AI, which is blocking the river crossing, to make a stand somewhere farther on the other side of the river, but this time ( i was playing Casse fighting Aedui ) they did what players use to call the "abusing" of bridges - they simply would not let my soldiers cross the river, but instead have built a massive defence order with multiple lines, causing horrible casualities to my troops. I have never whitnessed that before, and before playing on BI.exe i have never seen a phalangitai line beeing breached and annihilated by a frontal assault. Thats all ;)
Don't forget the Kluddobro! They're like the (slightly worse) Jugundhiz of britain. Who needs quality when you can outnumber the enemy 3 to 1? Whenever I play Casse I never build anything else, the fact that they're recruitable all over europe helps as well...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastDays
The AI did that once to me too and completely annihilated me. I was playing Romani and landed an invasion near Carthage, attacking north towards the city. I ended my turn on the bridge and was met by a Carthaginian fullstack. They attacked me and since I was inland and had no fleet immediately nearby, it was a fight to the death for me. No big deal I thought, I had a full stack of Polybian Romans, freshly minted. Unfortunately, the AI decided to stack two units of the Elite Liby-Phoenecians on the other side of the bridge. Since I was making accurate Polybian armies, I only had one unit of PE and mostly Hastati and Principes. Lets just say that those two units of Liby-Phonecians killed over 1000 men all by themselves as I hopelessly threw unit after unit at them being unable to retreat. By far my worst defeat ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by vollorix
fomalhaut - well Britons is a nice campaign, strategically speaking.You can conquer the island and then you have options ;-) That's where I want to get.As for your suggestions I was never fond of eastern nations.Still Baktria sounds tempting :-)
I thought of a Barbarian Nation, and as in vanilla I thought the Gaul will be too strong, Spanish ARE strong and since I saw nobody talks about Britons I opted for them.
TheLastDays - I had two battles in that campaing.The first I used the generals in skirmish mode (their javelin damage sucks too :-P).The purpose was to lure the enemy infantry and encircle them with the chariots hitting from the flanks.Didn't work as my infantry broke VERY fast.
The second time I thought I could strengthen the morale of my army, by having my three generals atacking from the flanks and the center and the infantry following them.It was a HEROIC melee charge.Failed too cause generals are pathetic in melee.
** The opponent had skirmishers too so it needed a lot of concentration not to get harassed by the enemy javelins.
I still have some more ideas, like having the generalas in skirmish, attracting the enemy javelins then having my skirmishers throwing at them.It will take a lot of MICRO but is worth the effort :-P
Athanaric - I had my first game in M/M.Battles in Medium are quite easy.I don't want to sound like an "RTW geek" but that's my impression.I also managed (with a lot of effort) in my VH/H with Kenon Hellenon, to build a mighty empire - I know economy brings glory after some certain point.Still I want to go for the ultimate challenge and I have read other people play in VH/VH too.So it must be viable.
Vollorix - out of curiosity, what was your phalanx depth? Was it the default maybe?
The uber-navies of pirates in the Baltic get kind of annoying and unrealistic. I once had to face 7(!) fullstacks of pirates and a couple of stacks consisting of 4-5 units.
I deal with them this way:
-Place cursor over Caspian or Aral Sea.
-Open console
-Type "show_cursorstat", hit enter and watch those numbers
-Type "move_character Admiral Whoever" and the two numbers shown before.
What you claim about being the aggressor is true in EB MP as well. I can assure you that a vast majority of the time, EB MP battles have turned out in favor of the aggressor. I've always seen dynamics in EB MP battles similar to those in boxing matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin
Son of a gun is right. That's why we had to come up with the whole 'if you drop your pike, you lose it' line, albeit too late for the tournaments, if memory serves me right.Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
They sure did :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
You mean Immanae. They're almost identical to Jugundiz. Kluddobro are actually the cheap swordsmen.Quote:
Originally Posted by ximxim
Their damage is just normal. It's just that they have an inefficient missile output compared to the number of men in the unit. They do have a very generous ammo supply, though, so you can keep up missile fire throughout the entire battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksifos
Because you were playing on VH, where all AI forces get +7 attack and defence skill.Quote:
Didn't work as my infantry broke VERY fast.
Chariots are chargers, not melee fighters. Never have them get stuck un an infantry formation.Quote:
Failed too cause generals are pathetic in melee.
So are battles on H and VH, because the AI stays the same. It just amasses stat boni on the "higher" difficulty levels. Yes that's right, RTW uses a cheating AI like some game from the 1980s.Quote:
Athanaric - I had my first game in M/M.Battles in Medium are quite easy.
VH battles distort your gaming experience to a point where you get false impressions of a unit's actual purpose. All your evaluations of a unit's usefulness or strengths and weaknesses are worth nothing because with VH, you're playing with an extreme handicap. That kind of stuff might be fun with WarCraft3, where you can set your own forces at 70% health just to show that you can win even with retarded units, but in a game that revolves around historical accuracy, it is a somewhat pointless exercise.Quote:
I don't want to sound like an "RTW geek" but that's my impression.I also managed (with a lot of effort) in my VH/H with Kenon Hellenon, to build a mighty empire - I know economy brings glory after some certain point.Still I want to go for the ultimate challenge and I have read other people play in VH/VH too.So it must be viable.
Suffice it to say that Celtic chariots, while difficult to control, are quite powerful. So are all other Briton units.
@Ksifos: first, i had arranged my levy phalanx in 4-5 raws per unit. After most of them had been routed, and i could free a couple of my units, i arranged a real deep formation to counter the shieldwall; well, it helped only a bit, namely my units were able to hold their ground for a while, at least untill they were fighting 1 on 1, but those "stacked" Romans had still managed to break them. After the battle lines got a little bit scattered, and i still had at least 1 veteran phalanx holding its ground, i had to mass charge each of the Roman units at least twice to break them. Of course, i had bombarded them with my slingers from the rear, and have used some heavily depleted phalangitai as "finisher" units ( and those are really good at killing if unopposed ). IIRC, it was my faction leader ( not Pyrrhos, though ), who was leading that assault, so "he" could rally enough men back to fight ( and had a huge bodyguards numbers ofc, handy for the charges ), otherwise i would have lost the battle. But it felt like an actual "Pyrrhic victory" ^^
Athanaric - I replayed the Casse campaign (VH/VH :-P).Playing very conservative, I managed to create the United Kingdom (incl. Ireland) by 250BC.Not a time record but mostly following a slow progressing, "developing and conquering" plan.After that you have a strong economy and plenty of options.In my first game I made A LOT of mistakes.And that is natural because I had to adopt to the Casse playing style.It wasnt the difficulty level but my ignorance of how Britons should be played.That said, I have to admit I am quite impressed of their mobility, javelin damage and morale when having a general aside.At least versus Sweboz they dominate (Jugundai you say? :-P).
I am not aware of the bonuses you say.In fact I can't see those bonuses in game.On the other hand I can safely say that the AI is doing some very weird and precise manoevres so that he avoids misiles - you could call that a handicap but that's ok :-)
All in all, Britons are a morale dependent army.Without a general or an 'eagle-unit' things might get funky pretty easily.On the other hand the key unit for me so far are the slingers.They are deadly shooting at the back of enemies.Along with the general and Uirodusios they are "must have" in the army mix.
But that's because I haven't confronted stronger armies yet, with cavalry.That's where I will have to redesign tactics.And I can safely guess that late game I will need 2 or 3 stacks vs 1 roman, to get the edge.
Vollorix - makes sense ;-) Well those battles of drama is maybe the one of the greatest elements in EB.But is also when you wouldn't want the game to CTD on you, hehe.
In one thing you are correct: Morale is everything, playing the Casse (and most barbarian factions for that matter), that's probably why they have Drwdae, Calawre (later Rycalawre :D) and Generals to bolster their morale and Uirodusios and again Generals to lower the opponent's morale...
Yep, they're mobile, are good skirmishers and used correctly they can stand their ground against Romans :P
I can't agree on the VH/VH approach though, at least not when trying to determine the strength/usefulness of a unit. I can "safely" assure you, that the AI does get the attack and defence boni and probably a morale bonus too (that might not be working ;) )... On the other hand I don't know what .exe you're playing but even on VH I have never seen the AI do a manouver that deserved a better label than "not completely retarded".
I for one don't see any change to the better in Battle AI by increasing the difficulty.
to be fair thelastdays i saw the ai doing some correct manouvers many times
in phallanx vs phallanx batle if i can´t use tactical movements to manouver the ai phallanx would shread me to pieces i must admit i can´t use the phallanx in an offenssive way no matter what i try and in defensive way the ai tends to beat me if it was all down to peztharoi vs peztharoi
the ai biggest morronic movements is that sometimes they over complicate things by manouvering too much and when it´s time to fight my fresh troops have the advantage against the ai very tired troops
if you fight enough times against an oponent (and i mean enough like letting the breath and learn ) they start adopting more/better units to face your strategies wich again forçes you to inovate ofc if you blitz the hell out of them you´ll never see that and if you face the arche seulekids only on bridge batles you can´t see how their adjustment is an improvement
i hate the ridiculous over maneuvering the AI sometimes does, it's just a huge waste of time.
and yeah, i've found Phalanx v Phalanx I always always lose, whether on offense or defense. I don't know what to do about it, i just take it until i can smash the AI Phalanx in the back.
There has been a study on this [1]. The AI phalangites will always be ordered to attack and will always remain in guard mode, that is for certain (I haven't seen a counter-example). Therefore your best bet is to do one of two things. If his phalangite is coming at yours, take yours off guard mode and do not order it to attack (it will auto-engage). If you are forced to move a phalangite to attack one of the AI's, turn guard on before ordering the attack. The former guard-off results in better results on average, but you have to be in a perfect position to receive the AI attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by fomalhaut
[1] https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8p...ODM3ZjY5&hl=en
wow, glad you linked that thank you.
@athanaric No, I meant the kluddobro. Imannae are nice as well, but have a much more spread out formation, making them less good line-troops (which is what I'm using them for, don't have any use for skirmishers).
All Phalangite units are like that tbh. I remember when i first started playing on H/H I faced off with a medium phalanx (on huge, so 242 men or something). Pinned it down with some armenian spears, and charged 152 bodyguards, down hill, into their rear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drag0nUL
they they lost like 50 units, turned their spears around and began slaughtering my FM's -.-. After that I simply hunt down their general, kill him, and bum-rush their units, even elites flee when the general dies and they get outflanked by axemen..
Phalangites, any sort of them actually, are without a doubt amongst my favourite units, as they're bugged, being able to do a 360 degree turn and all :)
the lack of an elite phalanx is what keeps me wary of Bactria... i have to have an elite phalanx. Silver Shields, Brazen Shields, Agema, Chaoma, Hanupim Alupim, all my favorite units. i usually only have one, and that's after a regular phalanx has turned into a silver chevron