Re: These People Make my Head Hurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shibumi
You could also buy a vodka bottle at the tax free store after the control - breaking it at the handle - and threaten someones face.
Or you could buy 10 bottles - spill it out in the cabin - ignite the carpet and you would get quite a fire.
Two hollowed out flip flops with military C4 could in the worst case scenario make a dent in a cockpit door. In the average case scenario it would leave a burn mark that is REALLY hard to wash away - meaning hours of extra labor for the janitor detail. Oh the horror.
Okay. Military weapons knowledge isn't my forte, and that's one of the many reasons I'm just a pizza delivery man.
I don't suppose there are explosives more powerful that could in fact be threatening to life or limb? The 9/11 hijackings were carried out with box cutters, iirc. Threatening to literally blow someone's head to pieces right in front of everyone could be more than a little coercive, if people were afraid of rushing people with tiny blades.
I already agree with you that what is too dangerous to be let on a plane seems arbitrary to the lay person, but I suppose they judge the likelihood of certain kinds of threats being lethal or dangerous on a plane and go with their judgments on it, right or wrong. Someone is going to do that job, and the reason why is because people need to earn money to make a living, and the government is going to want to cover its own butt if something bad goes down. Further, the reason why we have such beefy security now is because whenever there's a crisis everyone panics and demands maximum security. This is the end result.
I'm not saying I agree with it. And since I don't know, and most people don't know what is or isn't threatening (look at how they feel about guys dressed as Imams. Lots of terrorists forget about disguises and go plan their attacks dressed as clerics....), someone makes that assessment for us and it makes some people feel safer, and that allows some of them to fly on planes, and that allows airlines to make money, and flights remain within an affordable range for common people, I guess.
Re: These People Make my Head Hurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Askthepizzaguy
I don't suppose there are explosives more powerful that could in fact be threatening to life or limb?
Pentaerythritol tetranitrate is the weapon of choice for would-be suicide plane bombers.
Re: These People Make my Head Hurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Askthepizzaguy
Okay. Military weapons knowledge isn't my forte, and that's one of the many reasons I'm just a pizza delivery man.
I don't suppose there are explosives more powerful that could in fact be threatening to life or limb? The 9/11 hijackings were carried out with box cutters, iirc. Threatening to literally blow someone's head to pieces right in front of everyone could be more than a little coercive, if people were afraid of rushing people with tiny blades.
I already agree with you that what is too dangerous to be let on a plane seems arbitrary to the lay person, but I suppose they judge the likelihood of certain kinds of threats being lethal or dangerous on a plane and go with their judgments on it, right or wrong. Someone is going to do that job, and the reason why is because people need to earn money to make a living, and the government is going to want to cover its own butt if something bad goes down. Further, the reason why we have such beefy security now is because whenever there's a crisis everyone panics and demands maximum security. This is the end result.
I'm not saying I agree with it. And since I don't know, and most people don't know what is or isn't threatening (look at how they feel about guys dressed as Imams. Lots of terrorists forget about disguises and go plan their attacks dressed as clerics....), someone makes that assessment for us and it makes some people feel safer, and that allows some of them to fly on planes, and that allows airlines to make money, and flights remain within an affordable range for common people, I guess.
There are most def explosives you could hide in a sole of a flip flop shoe that is as harmful as a box cutter or a broken glass bottle.
My point however is that the amount of time, energy, and money wasted on protecting us from hypothetical threats could be way better spent elsewhere. And as a side note - that probably should be a main point - terrorists win when they affect the lives of the average guy. An idiot brought explosives enough to threaten a window - kaboom everyone around the world has to take any kind of footwear off.
It is like giving the terrorists a walk over (I generally hate sport terms). When it comes to impact divided by means (ability) - the shoe bomber must be the most efficient terrorist in history. But only so because the government nods, and the blind masses follow.
Have you had a look at the security industry? And yes, it is quite and industry these days - worth billions of billions. They have lobby groups - those like us feeling insecure. There are also political gains in having the population feel insecure.
Me? I prefer to live in a world where people can pass through security with flip flops, and where they can say the name Voldemort without fear.
PJ
Quote:
Pentaerythritol tetranitrate is the weapon of choice for would-be suicide plane bombers.
Do you often make random assumptions based on what I can only believe to be ill-read book knowledge - or do you save those moments for this forum?
Re: These People Make my Head Hurt
Oh, if you're talking about money wasted, then security and certain military actions taken do total in the trillions.
That was Bin Laden's plan, to cripple us economically like the Soviets, overreacting to the threats he posed. He was right about that much, we are in much worse financial shape, and the military/security industries are thriving at the expense of basic necessities. The illusion of security is not the same as security, I agree.
Stuff gets past security and it destroys hundreds of lives, prompting even more security, until it does become ludicrous. I think security on airplanes should be opt-in.... if you're in a hurry and don't want to pay extra, fly "gutsy". You agree to not hold the airline responsible in the event of a terrorist attack or a madman on the plane. In return, you pledge to tackle anyone who acts like a jackass. You're also on the plane where, if it gets hijacked, the military shoots it out of the sky before approaching a city.
If you're a security-minded type, you can go on the plane where everyone is checked twice, every thing is checked twice, and you pay for sky marshals and all the security bells and whistles. And it will take you 2 hours longer to get anywhere. Fine. That's choice, and I support choice.
Re: These People Make my Head Hurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shibumi
PJ
Do you often make random assumptions based on what I can only believe to be ill-read book knowledge - or do you save those moments for this forum?
Are you speaking broadly, or implying that my statement about PETN is a 'random assumption'?
Re: These People Make my Head Hurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Askthepizzaguy
Oh, if you're talking about money wasted, then security and certain military actions taken do total in the trillions.
That was Bin Laden's plan, to cripple us economically like the Soviets, overreacting to the threats he posed. He was right about that much, we are in much worse financial shape, and the military/security industries are thriving at the expense of basic necessities. The illusion of security is not the same as security, I agree.
Stuff gets past security and it destroys hundreds of lives, prompting even more security, until it does become ludicrous. I think security on airplanes should be opt-in.... if you're in a hurry and don't want to pay extra, fly "gutsy". You agree to not hold the airline responsible in the event of a terrorist attack or a madman on the plane. In return, you pledge to tackle anyone who acts like a jackass. You're also on the plane where, if it gets hijacked, the military shoots it out of the sky before approaching a city.
If you're a security-minded type, you can go on the plane where everyone is checked twice, every thing is checked twice, and you pay for sky marshals and all the security bells and whistles. And it will take you 2 hours longer to get anywhere. Fine. That's choice, and I support choice.
:2thumbsup:
Re: These People Make my Head Hurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PanzerJaeger
Are you speaking broadly, or implying that my statement about PETN is a 'random assumption'?
:curtain:
Also, as much as I disagree in principle with the formation of the TSA and especially with the replacement of private workers with unionized ones, it should be noted that the agency's annual budget, which covers not only air travel but security for highways, railroads, buses, mass transit systems, pipelines, and ports, is ~8 billion, comprising .00223% of the national budget. As bloated as it may be, airport security is not bankrupting the nation.
Re: These People Make my Head Hurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Louis VI the Fat
No, compared is the predictability of the trouble one will face over non-conformist attire when travelling by air.
That is beside the point. The nazis were bad guys, particularly when it comes to a certain ethnicity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PanzerJaeger
Yes, because panzerjaeger t-shirt=nazi. Comparison does not make sense! :laugh4:
No such conclusion is drawn. As per above, nazi references in Israel is a different matter entirely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Major Robert Dump
WHATS CRAZY IS THAT THIS STUFF HAPPENS EVERYWHERE I TRIED TO FLY FROM KUWAIT TO SWEDEN DRESSED AS A PIG AND THE PASSENGERS COMPLAINED AND TEH PILOT KICKED ME OFF AND I HAD TO DRIVE INSTEAD.
Would they accept you if you wore jeans, you think? Symbol of evil colonialism, part of teh grand conspiracy.
Re: These People Make my Head Hurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shibumi
* I was at an airport security and was asked to take my flipflops off. I very politely asked the person what possible bomb could be hidden in a pair of flip flops. His reply was theater voicing "we have a loudy here". Enter airport security personnel, guns drawn.
In the interrogation room I was informed that uttering the word "bomb" was oh so bad. Very very very bad. Terroristicly bad even.
I then asked them if airport security now had reached some sort of Harry Potter world, where uttering the world "Voldemort" would evoke evil. In her defense, my interrogator held her face for about 5 seconds before laughing her cute behind off and set me free.
* I had a can of beer in my rucksack (I collect foreign beers). Obviously Code Red. I drank it in record time with security staff watching - several pats on the pack and a loud burp later I was no longer deemed a potential threat.
* I brought a ceremonial short sword in my hand luggage. It cost about 10.000€. I was asked to hand it in as it endangered the flight. The item was as blunt as could be, and I politely explained that I could cause way more harm with stuff found in the tax free shop inside of the gate. Interrogation room once again. Ended with me keeping the sword.
* I could go on.
I fly a lot, and it is just obscenely retarded how airport security works. So much time, money and effort to waste.
Should they inquire about the sword, yes of course. Should it be a big debacle - no. The "war on terrorism" has quickly escalated to a war on freedom, a war against our own populace. Someone in this forum once explained that forcing school lunches on children to fight obesity was wrong as it was the Swedish way of starting the adherence to the state at a young age.
Having to take flipflops off is the American way of..?
Note: this is not general US bashing, just that airports have a international protocol by - well - the strongest link in this case - and the US is this strongest link.
This, exactly this. Times two for two guys. That is exactly my point in this thread.
Perhaps you are right, Shibumi. Maybe your criticism is right. I would not automatically deem your objections unreasonable.
But as for me, I won't shed a tear when you are removed from my plane. Not after you have made the entire plane wait for half an hour, have created a tense security situation, just because you used my flight to make your political statement. For me it would be goodbye and good luck on your next attempt to board a plane and do cry your heart out all you want at your congress.
Re: These People Make my Head Hurt
You guys complain about airport security and how its teh prezidents evil plot and he and only he started the whole thing and then -- boom -- someone is going to bring an IBIED (Infant-borne Improvised Explosive Device) on board and I'm gonna be all like "I told you so" yeah
Re: These People Make my Head Hurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Major Robert Dump
You guys complain about airport security and how its teh prezidents evil plot and he and only he started the whole thing
Dunno about America but flight security has always been tight here, certainly nothing new. There have always been terrorist groups here and a plane is kinda awesome, instant world coverage
Re: These People Make my Head Hurt
These discussions about airport security are moot, or at least as far as the original topic is concerned. The Imams were cleared by security - twice - and should have been allowed on the first plane like everybody else. The other passangers aren't qualified to determine security risks, and being "uncomfortable" around islamic dress is no reason.
Comparing it to Rosa Parks suggests a lack of perspective, though.
