This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

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Originally Posted by Lemur

If I may repeat something I've said multiple times in this thread, Zimmerman should have his day in court. What creeped me out was the apparent attempt to prevent that from happening.

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Exactly why I edited my post. Sorry my friend...

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I'd like to see a source for that. Last I heard it had not, and is now slated for a Federal grand jury. Did it actually go in front of a Florida grand jury? This is news.

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It never went before a grand jury. I just read that the detective in charge initially put forward an affidavit recommending charges for Zimmerman, but the local state's attorney declined:

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Originally Posted by CNN

ABC News has reported that the lead homicide investigator, Chris Serino, filed an affidavit pushing for charges the night of the killing, but was overruled by the state attorney's office.

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http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/02/justic...html?hpt=hp_t2

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Originally Posted by Goofball

It never went before a grand jury. I just read that the detective in charge initially put forward an affidavit recommending charges for Zimmerman, but the local state's attorney declined:





http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/02/justic...html?hpt=hp_t2

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Sounds to me like the states attorney there just didnt want the hassle of the case, he probably hoped it would just fade away.

From what I read here in Ireland it looks like social media put paid to that idea soon enough.

The Onion, as per usual, nails it:

Florida Police Warn Public Against Taking Law Into Own Hands Unless It’s That Law Specifically Designed For You To Do That

SANFORD, FL—Amidst the controversy surrounding the recent shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, the Sanford Police Department cautioned Florida residents Tuesday against taking the law into their own hands, except when following the state statute that explicitly authorizes people to do so. "Let me be clear: We do not want citizens resorting to deadly force when they believe they're being threatened—unless, of course, they are following the letter of the law, which says they can resort to deadly force when they believe they're being threatened," said interim Sanford police chief Darren Scott, referring to the state's "Stand Your Ground" rule. "Law enforcement should be left to the police. However, it can also be left to common citizens, since pursuing vigilante justice is perfectly within their legal rights. Have I made myself clear?" After being bombarded with questions about the confusing nature of the law, a flustered Scott said, "Just don't be racist and kill people, okay?"

Lemur, is that Onion piece for real or is it satire? I hope it's satire, because Jon Stewart could not have written it better.

The Onion is the finest news source in America.

And I'm glad to see that armed white supremacists are roving around Sanford, Florida. That's the one thing this case was missing. I mean, the New Black Panthers are already offering a bounty, so why shouldn't the New Klan get involved?

Neo-Nazis are currently conducting heavily armed patrols in and around Sanford, Florida and are "prepared" for violence in the case of a race riot. The patrols are to protect "white citizens in the area who are concerned for their safety" in the wake of the Trayvon Martin shooting last month, says Commander Jeff Schoep of the National Socialist Movement. "We are not advocating any type of violence or attacks on anybody, but we are prepared for it," he says. "We are not the type of white people who are going to be walked all over."

Because nothing diffuses racial tension like gun-toting racial separatists patrolling an already on-edge community.

Schoep, whose neo-Nazi group is based in Detroit, tells Riptide the patrols are a response to white residents' fears of a race riot.

A group called the New Black Panther Party recently offered $10,000 for a citizens' arrest of George Zimmerman, Martin's shooter. Schoep said the bounty is a sign that "the possibility of further racial violence... is brimming over like a powder keg ready to explode into the streets."

This case is really bringing out the worst in some people. John Derbyshire posts a hypothetical talk non-black parents can have with their chilluns about race. This does not appear to be parody.

(10a) Avoid concentrations of blacks not all known to you personally.

(10b) Stay out of heavily black neighborhoods.

(10c) If planning a trip to a beach or amusement park at some date, find out whether it is likely to be swamped with blacks on that date (neglect of that one got me the closest I have ever gotten to death by gunshot).

(10d) Do not attend events likely to draw a lot of blacks.

(10e) If you are at some public event at which the number of blacks suddenly swells, leave as quickly as possible.

(10f) Do not settle in a district or municipality run by black politicians.

(10g) Before voting for a black politician, scrutinize his/her character much more carefully than you would a white.

(10h) Do not act the Good Samaritan to blacks in apparent distress, e.g., on the highway.

(10i) If accosted by a strange black in the street, smile and say something polite but keep moving.

(11) The mean intelligence of blacks is much lower than for whites.

Nothing like pouring gasoline on a smoldering fire! Wheeee!

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Originally Posted by Johnderbishire

As you get older, the world starts to pass you by. This is sad, but inevitable. The world — its manners and fashions, its demographic and geostrategic facts — changes steadily, but you don't change much after you reach adulthood. I have expressed elsewhere the idea that at age 20, a human being is pretty much "done" — cooked all through.

https://i41.tinypic.com/w1tjma.jpg

Your circumstances might change quite dramatically, of course. You might even get rich and famous in your old age after a lifetime of penury, like Patrick O'Brian, when the lonely, barren furrow you have been plowing all your life suddenly, on account of some change in the climate of public taste, brings forth a bumper crop. You yourself, though — your personality — isn't going to change much after twenty. The older I myself get, in fact, the more I incline to the view Hazlitt arrived at in his own later years, that the core essentials are fixed at birth.

I was mulling on these melancholy truths the other day while browsing in Orwell's essays. The particular thought I was mulling was, that foreigners are no longer funny. I miss that — I mean, I miss laughing at foreigners.

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:laugh4: :laugh4:

Well, Derb got himself fired, no idea if he cares. I kinda agree with this assessment of NRO, however:

[National Review] can be described as consistently skeptical that white racism is relevant to contemporary politics despite its own evident fascination with the topic. It shows no reservation about caricaturing/over-interpreting a black president’s statements and policies to paint him as a racial aggressor. It consistently addresses the topic of racism in a glib, dismissive, or superior tone. I cannot recall—and could not find in several hours looking through the NRO archives—one substantial piece of writing that addressed racism in the U.S. as anything besides a minor, unimportant problem. With a big stretch of generosity, one could say National Review treats the subject casually.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

This case is really bringing out the worst in some people.

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Much of what he said is SOP in cities like Memphis, Detroit, and Atlanta. Honestly, as I read through the list, my reaction was more of a 'well yeah' than shock or anger. It was more surprising that someone would actually write it. Such things are best learned through experience and not shared.

He is way off on his last point. IQ scores indicate that mean black intelligence is only marginally lower than that of whites IIRC.

The relative rates of incarceration would need an alternate explanation then.

~:smoking:

Just thought you intellectuals would like to hear some different opinions on the matter.

Here is one such scholar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EboACsNuyA0

























*snicker*

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

The war is over. Some people refuse to believe it.

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I'm not clear on how anything is a "war." Look, you know I believe racism is overrated as a sin. But that doesn't mean I think it's somehow magically a non-force now that we have a black President. There are still plenty of life-and-death situations where it's a bad idea to be a black man of any age, education, service or income.

I find it particularly interesting that some rightwingers now believe that it is (a) safe to assert that white racism is a nonissue, thanks to Barry O'Bama, and (b) it is equally safe to accuse anyone of any color of race-baiting if they ever dare suggest that white racism might play any role anywhere. Really, when you think about it, racists got the better deal with the election of Obama.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

The relative rates of incarceration would need an alternate explanation then.

~:smoking:

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Check your logic. What does one have to do with the other?

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Check your logic. What does one have to do with the other?

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That's the question, isn't it? Why is it that a disproportionately high number of black men are prison inmates?

Ajax

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

That's the question, isn't it? Why is it that a disproportionately high number of black men are prison inmates?

Ajax

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Because they are poor. I'm struggling to refrain from adding a ******* to the end of that one.

Poor people go to prison. Poor people are often minorities. Unfortunate but that's what it is. More unfortunate is that it will likely always be that way. It is very hard to escape the morass of poverty especially with the kind of culture that has been created within the ghettos of America.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Because they are poor. I'm struggling to refrain from adding a ******* to the end of that one.

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Yep. I'm pretty sure that's the main factor (not sure what the **** thing is all about). On the other hand, is the incarceration rate for whites and blacks the same when adjusted for poverty? My (admittedly limited) understanding is that it's still higher for blacks. A little scrounging online seems to indicate that black Americans are between two and three times as likely as whites to be poor, but are between 5 and 6 times as likely to be incarcerated. So I don't think socio-economic status can be the only explaining factor. There are clearly other variables at play, also operating along racial lines.

Ajax

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

Yep. I'm pretty sure that's the main factor (not sure what the **** thing is all about). On the other hand, is the incarceration rate for whites and blacks the same when adjusted for poverty? My (admittedly limited) understanding is that it's still higher for blacks. A little scrounging online seems to indicate that black Americans are between two and three times as likely as whites to be poor, but are between 5 and 6 times as likely to be incarcerated. So I don't think socio-economic status can be the only explaining factor. There are clearly other variables at play, also operating along racial lines.

Ajax

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Hmm but what does simply being below the poverty line or not tell you? That hardly captures socio-economic status.

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There is, at present, no consensus as to the causes behind the racial disproportionality in arrests, charges and incarceration of African Americans in the United States. However, scholars agree that more research is needed. Gary LaFree gives an account of how studies correlating race and crime were discouraged from the 1960s on as sociologists developed a sensitivity to research that could be seen as placing blame on those who could be victims of racial discrimination.[50]
He further identifies an urgent need for renewed studies of race differences in crime. John Paul Wright, associate professor of criminal justice at the University of Cincinnati, opines that the connection between crime and race should be studied "honestly and courageously" precisely because it is African Americans who have suffered most from the America's collective failure to understand and control street crime. No other group, says Wright, would benefit more from a "candid examination of race and crime."[51]
Engaging in the direct study of race and crime, however, is not a straightforward matter. Wright observes that researchers who produce findings which identify race as a determining factor in criminal behavior run the risk of "public repudiation, professional exile, and even career death".[52] He writes: "If social security is the holy grail of politics, race and crime is the holy grail of criminology. Touch it and you expose yourself to wrath and fury. For this reason, many criminologists are loath to examine the connection between race and crime outside the modern sociological paradigm that holds that race is a mere social construct - that is, something defined by any given society, ... a 'social invention'."[51] Other scholars have also deplored the current climate surrounding the discussion of race and crime. Professors of sociology Robert J. Sampson and William Julius Wilson of Harvard University describe it as "mired in an unproductive mix of controversy and silence."[53]

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Perhaps we'll never know :shrug:

Researching at racial differences in socio-economic outcomes is an academic minefield, that's true. The idea of race as a "mere social construct" does have some appeal: we use it as a short-hand "race" for something that may be more cultural than anything to do with skin colour. I met a Kenyan professor who did his Phd in the States and was aghast at some of the attitudes he encountered in African Americans (I think he was in Chicago) and felt more at home among whites while overseas. It's seems likely that the legacy of slavery and official discrimination has led to racial problems in the Americas that don't exist in, say, Kenya or even to the same degree in Europe. (They do probably exist with a vengeance in South Africa, though.)

Thinking about Ajaxfetish's question, my first reaction was to equate it with the issue of racial differences in crime rates, but that may have been hasty. For example, blacks and whites in the US are equally likely to use and sell drugs, but black men are 12 times more likely to be imprisoned for it:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/keith-..._b_883310.html

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Originally Posted by econ21

Thinking about Ajaxfetish's question, my first reaction was to equate it with the issue of racial differences in crime rates, but that may have been hasty. For example, blacks and whites in the US are equally likely to use and sell drugs, but black men are 12 times more likely to be imprisoned for it:

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What explains the difference?

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

What explains the difference?

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As I understand it, a lot of it has to do with the comparative size of their criminal records. White people in suburbia arrested for petty drug use often have little or no criminal past, while blacks often have other crimes in their past which effects sentencing. You won't hear that from the baiters though, who, having to adjust their strategy to contend with a distinct lack of overt racism, have decided to use black America's own failings to claim institutional racism.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

As I understand it, a lot of it has to do with the comparative size of their criminal records. White people in suburbia arrested for petty drug use often have little or no criminal past, while blacks often have other crimes in their past which effects sentencing. You won't hear that from the baiters though, who, having to adjust their strategy to contend with a distinct lack of overt racism, have decided to use black America's own failings to claim institutional racism.

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I take it you are not a fan of the book "The New Jim Crow" that all the Sociology majors at my campus have to read.

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

(not sure what the **** thing is all about)

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He means taking a stroll through the lavender passageway. If you know what I mean. :wiseguy:

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

Yep. I'm pretty sure that's the main factor. On the other hand, is the incarceration rate for whites and blacks the same when adjusted for poverty? My (admittedly limited) understanding is that it's still higher for blacks. A little scrounging online seems to indicate that black Americans are between two and three times as likely as whites to be poor, but are between 5 and 6 times as likely to be incarcerated. So I don't think socio-economic status can be the only explaining factor. There are clearly other variables at play, also operating along racial lines.

Ajax

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It is not race that determines incarceration rate. This is a nature vs nurture issue. It is not in their nature to commit crime, they have been nurtured in that way. The son of Mother Teresa could live a life among hoodlums, and chances are, he will become a hoodlum.

In a way, this is a racial issue, but they are not incarcerated just for being black. It just so happens that they are very sensitive about their race, and are easy to lash out. Hence, higher incarceration rate. But this is not the only contributing factor. Socioeconomic status bears a lot of weight on criminal tendencies. But it IS a big factor.

Also, some people commit crimes to look cool. And it doesn't. It makes you look like a ****.

Being a poor minority does disenfranchise people from the mainstream.

And socio-economic background particularly parenting is a major factor in how a child develops.

It's interesting to see how different immigrant groups prosper in new countries. Those which integrate, which work hard, which have a low crime rate... Look for the magic sauce in that.

Building block of societies are families. Dysfunctional families in groups create dysfunctional neighborhoods. Make it multi-generational and you have self replicating dysfunctional groups. The key is to figure out what can be done to stop the cancerous spread and reverse it. One thing to do is penalize deadbeat dads on the social welfare system. However as enamouring as that stick is, it doesn't stop the next generation forming. You've got to somehow instill pride in self and something to live for in youths who have no viable role models.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

As I understand it, a lot of it has to do with the comparative size of their criminal records. White people in suburbia arrested for petty drug use often have little or no criminal past, while blacks often have other crimes in their past which effects sentencing. You won't hear that from the baiters though, who, having to adjust their strategy to contend with a distinct lack of overt racism, have decided to use black America's own failings to claim institutional racism.

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It becomes a revolving door only after the book gets thrown at them the first time.

The outcomes of the United States justice system are racist. That is not to say the institutions are racist but the end result certainly is.

I don't think you can ever prove why that is without conjecture but we can at least acknoweldge that fact. The data points that out beyond a doubt.

We are only 40 years removed from firebombings and assinations for equal voting rights. Why is it so out of the realm of possibilty that the system can still be prejudical?

Really the end result of the disproportionate penal population is the culmination of a litany of things including but not limited to the drug war, overcrowding, three strike, mandatory minimums, the fallacy of being "tough on crime", bias

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

I take it you are not a fan of the book "The New Jim Crow" that all the Sociology majors at my campus have to read.

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The book consolidated all the information that was already out there but yea, its a good read

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

What explains the difference?

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According to the article I linked, it's partly higher arrest rates and partly higher rates of imprisonment if arrested. The article focuses on the former, arguing that blacks are more likely to be stopped and searched, and are more intensively policed. It's not just that the white drug users in suburbia get more lenient treatment if caught, they are much less likely to be caught.

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Although Black people are 12 percent of the population and 14 percent of drug users, according to Mauer and Cole, they comprise 34 percent of those arrested for drug offenses and 45 percent of those incarcerated in state prisons for such offenses.

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Another one bites the dust at NRO.

In fairness, I do understand why some folks are dismissive of white racism. The video linked below the spoil, for example, is guaranteed to make any citizen's blood boil, especially when the chief of police announces it is not a hate crime.

Warning, graphic video of a guy getting mobbed, beaten and stripped. Profanity is the least of it. Guaranteed to raise your blood pressure and make you angry/sick/disgusted, so watch at own risk.

Racism ended becuase white America thinks racism ended.

There is implicit privellge with being born white in America.

I don't think you can legislate it out nor do I think you can guilt people into changing the paramaters in which we operate

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Originally Posted by econ21

According to the article I linked, it's partly higher arrest rates and partly higher rates of imprisonment if arrested. The article focuses on the former, arguing that blacks are more likely to be stopped and searched, and are more intensively policed. It's not just that the white drug users in suburbia get more lenient treatment if caught, they are much less likely to be caught.

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I mean, are the authors right? And what's the conclusion supposed to be? As it stands they are just quoting an empty statistic.

I worry about the quality of our debate on this stuf...liberals are far far far to eager to score political points by talking about racist conservatives ( and if they have a chance to work in some pet policy issue of theirs like gun control or the death penalty or drug wars they jump on it) and by now republicans are sick of it and assume anything the liberals say about it is bogus race baiting. Liberals are far too happy to believe the problem is something they enjoy it being. In the end all that's said is a bunch of tv pundit talking point crap.