Org Promotion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Axalon

I'll keep this short....



How do you know this? ...Have you tried? ...Ever visited a place called the TWC? ...Ever wondered why that site simply kills this one? ...Ever wondered why most people prefer that site to this one? The "nice structures" and "neatly defined boxes" are part of the reasons why - that's a fact. Which essentially leaves us with the option to either do roughly the same, and try to keep up (compete), or get left behind (die). And right now bubba, we are being left behind... This utterly regardless of your opinions, utterly regardless if you agree with it or not... Understand?

- A

---

Oh I love TWC! But not because of the neatly defined boxes. If you think that somehow all that's missing is to copy their format, I'm just gonna chuckle. I mean I can sit here and say look at the reddit, it's popular, copy that format. This is like trying to copy the popular kids by wearing their clothes and then being shocked when it doesn't work out like you think.

Why would someone who goes to TWC, or reddit or whatever come here instead? Because "Forum Configuration!" is not the big selling point.


Here is a perfect post from 2 years ago on reddit. See if you can spot anyone you recognize

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co..._still_active/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Axalon

I'll keep this short....



How do you know this? ...Have you tried? ...Ever visited a place called the TWC? ...Ever wondered why that site simply kills this one? ...Ever wondered why most people prefer that site to this one? The "nice structures" and "neatly defined boxes" are part of the reasons why - that's a fact. Which essentially leaves us with the option to either do roughly the same, and try to keep up (compete), or get left behind (die). And right now bubba, we are being left behind... This utterly regardless of your opinions, utterly regardless if you agree with it or not... Understand?

- A

---

Old bean, the only reason why now most people prefer TWC is because it already has more people. Funnily, the biggest difference is in the Off-Topic forums. The root of the problem is why TWC surpassed .org back in 2009. Honestly I have no idea, I didn't have Internet back then and I was only starting to play the TW games.
When someone finally explains that, we can discuss how we can simulate the same thing with the opposite results.

Additionally better movements than forum restructures would be the hosting of tournaments, hotseat, multi-playing, various contests and their advertizement everywhere possible: TWC, official forums, steam, reddit.

Oh, and a wiki too. Copy-pasting the one of TWC, something that has been done, if the gossip in Shambala was true, would be a good start. Not enough, blame google for that, but if we expand it, stuff may become better.

Edit II Facebook, twitter and definitely youtube too. The last is the best, but finding a decent youtuber that has no problem working for a site and not for himself is kinda impossible.

Creating "Org content" is one of the main suggestions from my side - we need to have this big time.

Quote:

---

Not that I'm against making you happy but this really just seems like "You'll be happy with whatever, I'll be happy with my plan, so do my plan"

---

This this this. To claim anything else is rank delusion.

If you want to see activity in this forum - invite people to it.

Quote:

---

Why would someone who goes to TWC, or reddit or whatever come here instead? Because "Forum Configuration!" is not the big selling point.

---

That's true only if you aren't a regular player:creep:

Quote:

---

Oh I love TWC! But not because of the neatly defined boxes.

---

Then what draws you to TWC?

Quote:

---

If you want to see activity in this forum - invite people to it.

---

It's rather impossible to invite folks to come here. What needs to be done to see more activity is make the site inviting :idea2:

Quote:

---

the only reason why now most people prefer TWC is because it already has more people.

---

Ummmm...~:confused:

Quote:

---

What needs to be done to see more activity is make the site inviting

---

That bears no relevance to how virtual spaces function. You can't see the inviting new Org while riding along the highway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai

That's true only if you aren't a regular player:creep:

---

Again with the "You don't play TW 24/7 and therefore don't 'get it' ". That's not a good outlook to draw in more people.

Quote:

---

Then what draws you to TWC?

---

I'm gonna go with: activity, the wiki, activity and probably activity. It updates on a regular basis and has people there to talk to. It looks alive and growing as opposed to here which is full of the same people arguing with each other over the same issues.

Quote:

---

It's rather impossible to invite folks to come here. What needs to be done to see more activity is make the site inviting :idea2:

---

It is actually not impossible to invite people here. Sites generate traffic all the time from offsite things. Usually someone linking something of interest and people check it out to see if they like it. That's probably how you found a bunch of the sites and things you visit or do now.

Quote:

---

Ummmm...~:confused:

---

People go to the place with more people. If you had to choose between here and there, most choose there because it is active. There needs to be something else to draw people here. It needs content. No one is leaving content for no content, I don't care how much you assure me that pretty forum lineups will bring them in.

It reminds me of the joke of all the old lodge members spending every meeting talking about how to get more members instead of, you know, doing something fun that might draw in members.

Quote:

---

That bears no relevance to how virtual spaces function. You can't see the inviting new Org while riding along the highway.

---

Okaaay cap'n~;)

Quote:

---

I'm gonna go with: activity, the wiki, activity and probably activity. It updates on a regular basis and has people there to talk to. It looks alive and growing as opposed to here which is full of the same people arguing with each other over the same issues.

---

I'm guessing "activity" means "Frontroom/Backroom" kind of talk:shrug: I don't have an account there, but I occasionally lurk, and there's plenty of activity focused on the games. The arguing over the same issues is precisely the problem here. Instead of dropping in to find the latest patch/fix for your favorite mod, or talking tactics from your latest campaign, etc, and then popping in to the 'tavern' to shoot the breeze on the latest political/religious bruhaha, the latter is usually why most people come here anymore. Like I said, let's rename the place to suit the environment, cuz' it sure ain't about TW anymore:inquisitive:

Quote:

---

There needs to be something else to draw people here. It needs content.

---

And what sort of content are you suggesting?

Quote:

---

usually why most people come here anymore.

---

You're missing the Gameroom, but more importantly you miss all the people who want to find TW information but have no interest in staying and discussing TW. If someone has a specific question about a specific mechanic and kthxbye, no contests or layout changes or anything of that sort will attract their residence. What you are depending on is a fundamental philosphical persuasion that TW is something people should come to talk about, and that isn't something that can be accomplished from within a forum.

Quote:

---

Instead of dropping in to find the latest patch/fix for your favorite mod, or talking tactics from your latest campaign, etc,

---

People who have a specific interest in discussing legacy topics with those who share that interest should create or join dedicated legacy communities.

Quote:

---

it sure ain't about TW anymore

---

It's not obliged to be, just as humans are not obliged to live forever or institutions to perdure eternally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai

Okaaay cap'n~;)

---

If we change the site format, how would people find out about it?

Quote:

---

I'm guessing "activity" means "Frontroom/Backroom" kind of talk:shrug: I don't have an account there, but I occasionally lurk, and there's plenty of activity focused on the games. The arguing over the same issues is precisely the problem here. Instead of dropping in to find the latest patch/fix for your favorite mod, or talking tactics from your latest campaign, etc, and then popping in to the 'tavern' to shoot the breeze on the latest political/religious bruhaha, the latter is usually why most people come here anymore. Like I said, let's rename the place to suit the environment, cuz' it sure ain't about TW anymore:inquisitive:

---

And oddly enough, you would be wrong. It's another "you only care about the offtopic stuff". I still find it funny this assumption that somehow I'm not interested in TW. You never even considered I meant TW activity. They post new stuff constantly. Several times a week. Almost every forum has a post that day or only a few behind. It's active. About TW. Amazing.

Quote:

---

And what sort of content are you suggesting?

---

Well isn't that the question? What's the point of doing a forum change if we don't know what will go in it? A forum shake up is fine, I guess. But what's going to go in it? I have ideas and things I would add but if there's no new content then why bother?

Quote:

---

You're missing the Gameroom, but more importantly you miss all the people who want to find TW information but have no interest in staying and discussing TW.

---

You are ignoring the facts, my friend. Back in post #25, numbers were given for posts made since the beginning of 2016. Backroom #1 w/almost 149,000 posts, Gameroom #2 w/just over 90,000 posts. Together they outnumber ever other sub-forum combined...by a wide margin. And neither have anything remotely to do with a TW game:inquisitive: Can you consider it a coincidence that the Org's short-term decline (ie. the last 5-6 years) parallels the rising popularity of those two forums?

Quote:

---

It's not obliged to be, just as humans are not obliged to live forever or institutions to perdure eternally.

---

Great! Then what do you want to rename this place to? Something more appropriate to its' current status~:smoking:

Quote:

---

It's another "you only care about the offtopic stuff"

---

Maybe not you personally, but the cumulative post count at the Org since the start of this year sez otherwise:shame:

Quote:

---

Well isn't that the question? What's the point of doing a forum change if we don't know what will go in it?

---

Isn't that what we are discussing here~:confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai

Can you consider it a coincidence that the Org's short-term decline (ie. the last 5-6 years) parallels the rising popularity of those two forums?

---

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i.imgur.com/AwoARt8.png

Joking aside, "rising popularity" is on a ratio basis, it isn't a case that people are joining to post in the off-discussion sections more, it is more that the loss is less severe in these locations than in the total war areas. Reasons are this are mostly older members who were dissatisfied with the newer titles, bored with the older ones, but still attend due to companionship through the bonds they formed with people over the years.

There are multiple theories to explain this loss, one is going along the lines of forums as a format, in general, along with the rise of social media, reddit, centralization of information. When I first joined the Org, TWC had already overtaken the Org in popularity, infact, that was the reason I became an Orgah was the smaller and more intimate community.

I have been told there were significant behind the scenes factors as to why this occurred, and why this increased. One big difference was TWC is a far more commercial enterprise, I remember reading at one point it required $500 per month to run, there are some very impressive amounts of money and investment has been put into that place. The Org has always ran as an enterprise done in someones backyard shed as a hobby in comparison, we were lucky to have a host who would let us have our internet space for free, and back in 1998, this was very expensive, even when I joined in 2008, internet hosting was not cheap. Now-a-days, we are able to self-fund the Org from donations people have previously given us and we had to rely on after our former host closed down their shop. It is comparing the success of the family ran hobby-shop to Walmart, the Org was not going to compete in the same environment. This is not to belittle TWC and their efforts, because seriously, they put a lot of work in that place and there is a reason it is popular as it is, and ignoring that would be a folly.

If you really want the "meat on the bone" to why the Org doesn't fare like TWC, it is because of Network Value. People chose a place like TWC for their number 1 resource because it is pretty much the number 1 resource for that information. Latest screenshots? Big scoop in a magazine? Someone has posted it. Someone is engaging in it. You might go "Why don't we have that?" and the simple answer is, is that the community is not providing it. We have a smaller community, so when we hear the big scoop, there are less members to hear about it, and post about it, opposed to other places. People say about Mods, and for many reasons before my time, TWC was able to offer better Mod hosting and support, so modders went over there. If you want your work seen by more people, and receive better support, where would you shop? Would be at the place that offers the best.

We are currently looking at options to see how we can better support things like forum structure, outside of changing what order the games are in, and if they are achievable, we can present and offer these. But I feel that we need to be honest with ourselves as to why things are as they are, and structural change will not do anything but quality of life for current membership.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AntiDamascus

I have ideas and things I would add but if there's no new content then why bother?

---

IMHO, that is the chicken-or-the-egg dilemma we find ourselves in now. Nobody wants to do/post anything because there is no activity here but there is no activity because nobody wants do/post anything.

Content just doesn't happen. Somebody has to do it...and the community has to engage and respond.

@Beskar

As my favorite Vulcan would say...Fascinating!:logic:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai

@Beskar

As my favorite Vulcan would say...Fascinating!:logic:

---

:bow: I did however update the post, if you would like to read.

That's why I felt the forum shakeup was.... nice but not the main point of this.

In regards to post: 91...

I give up... I can see (now) that to continue this activity would be utterly pointless. Thus I will not bother you - AntiDamascus - again regarding any of your claims, conclusions, statements and declarations on this note, or otherwise in this thread, or much else beyond this thread and topic for that matter. Please, bother not to write a reply to this post for my sake, I don’t need any....

- A

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crandar

Old bean, the only reason why now most people prefer TWC is because it already has more people. ... ... ...

---

Its true that many people go to the TWC for the sheeple/horde-factor, it is an important reason - I’ll totally give you that much - but its hardly the only reason thou, that bit is untrue. There are plenty of reasons, obviously the index and TW-infrastructure is one of the many such reasons - especially so mod-wise. While less clearly visible in general (there), their TWC-locations does make lots more sense, and obviously the sectioning and overall infrastructure is clearly better too. All that matters for mods, and Im talking a modder here. Its especially true as of 2012 and beyond, but probably true earlier then that as well. Ever since Barocca left the Org (2008?), this site never really had a solid clue on how to handle it, well... Despite best intentions. I imagine. A lot of lessons can be learned from the TWC on that note.

Edyz is currently focusing on what happens AFTER we set up an index and infrastructure that works and invites actual use. You seem to be so inclined as well - in general I am all for that stuff - that is once I am convinced enough that this place is indeed worthwhile investing in again (time, energy and effort). The first step to make that happen is a serious and working index, and that is why I am focusing on it. Looking at it from a modders perspective - I expect a normal and functional index - but I am looking for an advantageous one beyond that, if this place can’t deliver any of that, I won’t probably bother to invest further energy and effort into this site - that’s the ultra short version of it. I seriously doubt that I am the only one on the planet who thinks that way - at least among modders anyways. Probably others as well...

This place will need them modders if it is to survive, there are no two ways about it. There is no one that can create content like a good (active) modder, if there is then that would be news to me. Either this place offers "me" (us modders) a sexy enough settings to work in or it gets left behind. And as it is, its being left behind. Obviously, that is not a good or desirable circumstance...

- A

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beskar

... ... ...

We are currently looking at options to see how we can better support things like forum structure, outside of changing what order the games are in, and if they are achievable, we can present and offer these. But I feel that we need to be honest with ourselves as to why things are as they are, and structural change will not do anything but quality of life for current membership.

---

I have little contestation to offer this (entire) post around. Nice...

The one exception, the last (colored by me, for clarity) part as I am utterly convinced that sexy enough infrastructure and index can indeed inspire and invite activity. I say that with my finest modder-hat on. I would even say so without it... All the same the index is only the beginning of a long journey, of course. Actual content is obviously a vital continuation of such a journey, beyond the index - I fully agree on that...

- A

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Axalon

In regards to post: 91...

I give up... I can see (now) that to continue this activity would be utterly pointless. Thus I will not bother you - AntiDamascus - again regarding any of your claims, conclusions, statements and declarations on this note, or otherwise in this thread, or much else beyond this thread and topic for that matter. Please, bother not to write a reply to this post for my sake, I don’t need any....

- A

---

That's nice I suppose. But I'll respond to whatever posts for my sake and the sake of others in a conversation. It's not a personal thing but I'm not going to like... ignore your posts cause you're done with me. Just ignore mine if it's that big an issue. On we go.

Quote:

---

The one exception, the last (colored by me, for clarity) part as I am utterly convinced that sexy enough infrastructure and index can indeed inspire and invite activity. I say that with my finest modder-hat on. I would even say so without it... All the same the index is only the beginning of a long journey, of course. Actual content is obviously a vital continuation of such a journey, beyond the index - I fully agree on that...

---

And this is the crux of the entire argument. "If we build it, they will come" and you'll recall from that movie (if you ever watched it, that is) that the entire premise was kinda silly and goofy. That's why no one believed and it was so magical when it happened.

"I want this format, I'm the modder, I'm the important one, do what I want."

Quote:

---

Its true that many people go to the TWC for the sheeple/horde-factor, it is an important reason - I’ll totally give you that much - but its hardly the only reason thou, that bit is untrue. There are plenty of reasons, obviously the index and TW-infrastructure is one of the many such reasons - especially so mod-wise. While less clearly visible in general (there), their TWC-locations does make lots more sense, and obviously the sectioning and overall infrastructure is clearly better too. All that matters for mods, and Im talking a modder here.

---

Calling people sheeple and horde is kind of a big issue here for this. It's this "I know what's best" idea running here.

Quote:

---

There is no one that can create content like a good (active) modder, if there is then that would be news to me.

---

Apparently people who do lets plays, artwork, wiki or other works don't count eh? I'm starting to wonder if someone has a modding only focus.

It all ties into the big issue. There is an active TWC forum with mods, wikis, updates and most importantly, members already up and running. There seems to be an idea from people that simple changing the format will be the first step to... what? killing TWC and taking over as top dog? Being a fellow site that has an equal-ish size? What? I'll stand back on my previous statement. A forum shakeup is a small part of what needs to be done and I enjoy adding content and will add content if need be but this is really a personal preference of some that will likely have no real impact on activity. THAT will come from other factors.

Beskar, I agree for the most part with your post with regards to the forum structure and with the differences between the Org and TWC and the rest of the world.

What I keep suggesting for the past posts (mine at least) is that we enhance the content creation based on our community - we need content to bring here people. Content is king, and we need to have this in order to bring more people in.

And Orgahs are content creators.

:bow:

Quote:

---

And this is the crux of the entire argument. "If we build it, they will come" and you'll recall from that movie (if you ever watched it, that is) that the entire premise was kinda silly and goofy. That's why no one believed and it was so magical when it happened.

---

Rather a strawman argument, don't you think?

Quote:

---

I'm starting to wonder if someone has a modding only focus.

---

Seeing as how the modding traffic here is second only to the bar-and-grill, I'd say making modders happy to come here is important.

Quote:

---

There seems to be an idea from people that simple changing the format will be the first step to... what? killing TWC and taking over as top dog? Being a fellow site that has an equal-ish size?

---

I don't believe anyone (including Axalon) is saying a simple change in format will magically transform the Org into a giant-killer (or more to the point---a TWC killer). But one thing you got right, IMHO, changing the format IS the first step...one of many that will be needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

we need content to bring here people.

---

Make content because you want to make it, not because you think it will attract people. There are no taskmasters or bursars here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai

Rather a strawman argument, don't you think?

---

Not from what has been said here so far. Do you have a 5-year plan and investment for the Org prepared that would validate this entire specious discussion?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Montmorency

Make content because you want to make it, not because you think it will attract people. There are no taskmasters or bursars here.

---

Nobody said that.

Orgahs produce content on their own because they wish to make it - the idea would be to kindly ask them whether they would like to be featured on the Org, making it a win win for both sides.

Quote:

---

the idea would be to kindly ask them whether they would like to be featured on the Org, making it a win win for both sides.

---

You might consider an official promotion of pan-TW content, projects, or contests in the Arena subforum. It's a gaming subforum, gets a good deal of board traffic if not posts, and it consolidates anything that involves work or sharing that wouldn't fit in a particular TW game's section. If, I don't know, you want to organize a TW machinima collaboration (as example), the Arena would be a good staging point.

Why solely restricted to the Arena? This is mostly TW content, content that would bring people over because it has been made by Orgahs.

If you want to write an MTW AAR, by all means put it in the MTW AAR subforum. More broadly-construed "pan-Total War content" might go better in the Arena, and indeed content of that nature might be desirable - even something as simple as Total-War inspired art.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Montmorency

If you want to write an MTW AAR, by all means put it in the MTW AAR subforum. More broadly-construed "pan-Total War content" might go better in the Arena, and indeed content of that nature might be desirable - even something as simple as Total-War inspired art.

---

Such things can be moved or cross-linked from other related forums as needed/desired. We can also promote these things to "articles" on the Org front page.

Right - but my question is not exactly related.

My proposal would be this - Fellow Orgahs who produce content, would you like to be featured on the front page of the Org, and on the sidebars?

:book:

Alright, so it seems we have apparently babbled enough... Excellent!

Now, can staff/admin now please finally show me your colors so I can get a sporting chance to seriously assess whether or not I will be interested in investing again into this site, and this general Org-reboot. You can't stall it forever, and so far you have done an absolutely magnificent job at it, but it is closing in on a month now, and I need to know if this venture will include, or exclude, me as an active party in it. This of course are ultimatly dictated by what you guys are actually willing to do here. I need to have some clarity here if this is a meaningful investment or not - for me, by my standards. This before I commit or offer any further input and energy to this reboot.

So... Pretty please with extra pink sugar on top, kindly show me what you guys in staff have in mind, and/or what you are prepared to do (index-wise), no BS, just honestly show me (either by PM, or here in public, makes zero difference to me). A representative draft, or a few various drafts, of the site-index as envisioned by you guys - that will do just fine. Just show me were you truly stand at this point. I already know that tons of tasks and challenges awaits beyond that, but I want to see the supposed or the roughly intended foundation that all things are to build upon - the index - the first step...

We have waited long enough as it is.

- A