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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
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Originally Posted by Papewaio
Problem with implicit statements you end up following a trail of though that goes like this:
So does that mean that as Mexicans are not part of the U.S. they are the bad guys?
Lets see, it's okay to be a slave owner or the defender of slavery as long as you defend state rights.
But you are a bad guy for being a down trodden poor person trying to make a better life for your family.
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Aren't Mexicans part of the history of Texas too? Surely there was like this war like between Texas and umm France... wrong point... oh yes like Mexico!
So by your own standards surely the Mexicans can fly their flags as readily as confederates... both of which at times have elements that state they want to separate from the USA.
The illegal immigrant here in the U.S. are in a sense bad guys. They are illegal for one, that is self explanitory. They steal healthcare and jobs. I already said that slavery wasnt a cause of the civil war. I do feel sorry for the "down todden poor person", but there is nothing i can do for them. Our great country can't help every needy person in the world, we would if we could, but we simply cannot, unless you have a brilliant idea.
I dont really get your last statement. What exactly are you saying? Are you saying that the texans fought france, because that would be incorrect. Mexicans are part of the history of texas, but they arent part of texas itself. We fought them at the alamo and the rest of the war for Texas Independance.
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
almost think that the illegal immigrants that are waving some of these flags aren't U.S. citizens so they don't have the freedom of speech and thereby cannot wave the mexican flag.
So foriegners don't have freedom of speech and cannot wave the mexican flag , but if they are Americans then they have freedom of speech and can wave whatever flag they want .
Hmmmm..... i think you should go back and wave your flag in your own country.
....but if they are Americans and want to wave any flag they want then they have no freedom of speech unless they leave the country??????.
I dont really get your last statement. What exactly are you saying? :inquisitive: Mexicans are part of the history of texas, but they arent part of texas itself. We fought them at the alamo and the rest of the war for Texas Independance.
But Texas was part of Mexico , and when Texas fought at the alamo it wasn't part of the US itself . And when a Texan flies the Confederate flag he is disrespecting the US flag by flying the symbol of treason aginst the US that was used by people who tried to leave the US .
Flags , a piece of cloth that carries a lot of crap with it .
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
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The illegal immigrant here in the U.S. are in a sense bad guys. They are illegal for one, that is self explanitory. They steal healthcare and jobs.
I thought this thread was about ethnic Mexicans flying a flag. I don't think you can tell by looking at a flag whether the person who raised it is a legal or illegal immigrant or a descendent of people who lived in that region before it was annexed by the US.
Quote:
I already said that slavery wasnt a cause of the civil war.
Sorry AA, that is just a ridiculous statement. I have seen convincing arguments that there were other causes to the Civil War and no-one would disagree that abolition was not an original war aim for the North, but I have never heard a convincing argument that slavery was not the main cause. To state that it was not a cause at all is a shocking distortion of history.
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
Talking of which...
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Mexicans are part of the history of texas, but they arent part of texas itself. We fought them at the alamo and the rest of the war for Texas Independance.
The revolt was against a Mexican dictator, not against all Mexicans, and as I understand it, there was no ethnic cleansing following independence
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
Although the slavery was in effect the cause of the civil war it was technically really just a fight about states rights vs the federal goverment. The issue was should the federal goverment regulate slavery? The south thought each state should decide for itself, the north thought the federal goverment should decide for all. Bear in mind there were several slave states that fought for the north.
As for the Texas, bear in mind that Mexico had a weak corrupt goverment around when the Texans rebelled. The Texans outnumbered the Mexicans. Northern mexico (including the American southwest) was never really settled like the rest of Mexico was by the Spanish. Central and South Mexico was were the money and population was at, the north was poor, dangerous (indian attacks), and relatively forgotten by the Spanish Provincial and later Mexican population. So when the Mexicans invited Americans to settle it was primarly to try and bring American money to a poor region due to the expected increase in trade. The backfire was that of course once these Americans outnumbered the local Mexicans they didn't want to be part of Mexico anymore.
Also when the majority of Americans moved to Mexico it was with slaves because it was legal at the time in Mexico but when slavery was abolished in Mexico in 1827 this made for a lot of unhappy settlers.
Later on during the Mexican-American war the American settlers of California pulled a texas and rebelled against the local Mexican goverment and created the Republic of California.
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
If we really want to be technical the war was about whether states had the right to secede. It is not wholly correct that the south thought each state should decide the slavery issue. The Fugitive Slave Act was federal law that forced states to return escaped slaves whether they wanted to or not. The Confederate States decided to secede because they perceived that the tide was turning against slavery and saw a smaller confederation as the best way of preserving it. Of course there were social differences between North and South, but these also centred on slavery.
The American settlers in Texas were quite happy to be under Mexican rule, majority or minority; it was Santa Ana's dictatorship that pushed them in to rebellion.
Still, we agree that
- Slavery was the main cause of the civil war
- Mexicans are part of Texan history
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
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Originally Posted by AwesomeArcher
The illegal immigrant here in the U.S. are in a sense bad guys. They are illegal for one, that is self explanitory. They steal healthcare and jobs. I already said that slavery wasnt a cause of the civil war. I do feel sorry for the "down todden poor person", but there is nothing i can do for them. Our great country can't help every needy person in the world, we would if we could, but we simply cannot, unless you have a brilliant idea.
I dont really get your last statement. What exactly are you saying? Are you saying that the texans fought france, because that would be incorrect. Mexicans are part of the history of texas, but they arent part of texas itself. We fought them at the alamo and the rest of the war for Texas Independance.
I was under the impression that this was given to them by the US or US employers, maybe you could explain how they manage to steal jobs?
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
The civil war was about states rights very few pepole owned slaves and even less fought. We wouldve won to if it wasnt for the potato.
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
A potato stopped the CSA from winning?
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
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Originally Posted by Duke Malcolm
A potato stopped the CSA from winning?
He is making the anology that the Irish Potato Famine and the influx of Irish immigrants into the North - which boosted the North's manpower via the active recruiting (some might say impression) of Irish immigrants into the Federal Army.
Now while there is some fact to the statement. Even without the Irish Immigrants the North would of still won in the end. The North has a larger population, and more important a larger manafacturing and economic base then the southern states.
The South was on the losing end of the war from the gitgo. They were hoping for a strong enough victory on the battlefield to weaken the resolve of the people supporting the Federal Government, and bring if not the active support of several European Nations - at least the recongization and economic support of those nations. Several Battles did indeed come very close to accomplishing this goal - but in the end the south was doomed to failure then second it open fire. It just did not have the resources to fight the North on its own.
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
A flag is just a representation of the individuals interpation of what they hold important and value. For instance I have absolutely no problem with a person of Mexican Hertiage flying the national flag of Mexico in their home. If they Fly it with the Flag of the United States - then it should be flown on the left hand side of the United States Flag. But frankly most people do not understand the protocals that go with flying the different flags. So it doesn't really matter at all unless it is a Federal, State, or local government facility. Then the protocal must be followed.
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
If they Fly it with the Flag of the United States - then it should be flown on the left hand side of the United States Flag.
That is because the United States is right .~;)
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
If they Fly it with the Flag of the United States - then it should be flown on the left hand side of the United States Flag.
That is because the United States is right .~;)
Only on United States soil is it right....:laugh4:
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
Mexicans only make up 55% of illeglas. All illegalls need to leave. The only problem is mexicans being with legal mexicans and pretty much centered in 4 states have become the focal point. For the last time this isnt about race its about the economy and assimalation. I like tequlia and breakfest tacos as much as the next guy but this is about much more than that. They diran the healthcare and actually believe atzlan can be achived. THey bring poverty. As Pape said we had a war with Mexico becuase we didnt like being part of Mexico. Wether it was the anglo settlers or the mexicans whom lived there
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
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Originally Posted by Ja'chyra
I was under the impression that this was given to them by the US or US employers, maybe you could explain how they manage to steal jobs?
How do they not steal jobs. Even in the illegal immigration thread that was on here, a few people said that their jobs were taken by illegals. They are willing to work for minimum or lower wages, most americans wont take those jobs. Also if you have an american who wants $15 an hour and an illegal immigrant who wants to work for $12, who are you going to hire? Regular americans pay for their healtcare with their taxes. People's taxes should be used elseware, so one could argue pretty stongly that illegals are stealing healthcare and jobs.
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
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Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester
If we really want to be technical the war was about whether states had the right to secede. It is not wholly correct that the south thought each state should decide the slavery issue. The Fugitive Slave Act was federal law that forced states to return escaped slaves whether they wanted to or not. The Confederate States decided to secede because they perceived that the tide was turning against slavery and saw a smaller confederation as the best way of preserving it. Of course there were social differences between North and South, but these also centred on slavery.
The American settlers in Texas were quite happy to be under Mexican rule, majority or minority; it was Santa Ana's dictatorship that pushed them in to rebellion.
Still, we agree that
- Slavery was the main cause of the civil war
- Mexicans are part of Texan history
How can you say that the war was about whether states had the right to secede and then later say that slavery was the main cause of the civil war? :inquisitive: No not everyone agrees with your two statements. I am pretty sure that slavery isnt the main cause of the civil war, and i am pretty sure that most educated people feel that way. That is the way we learned it in school and what i have read it in books on the civil war. I agree that it was a cause of the civil war, but it wasn't the Main cause.
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
OT but interesting nevertheless.
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Originally Posted by AwesomeArcher
How can you say that the war was about whether states had the right to secede and then later say that slavery was the main cause of the civil war? No not everyone agrees with your two statements. I am pretty sure that slavery isnt the main cause of the civil war, and i am pretty sure that most educated people feel that way. That is the way we learned it in school and what i have read it in books on the civil war. I agree that it was a cause of the civil war, but it wasn't the Main cause.
Easy. It is clear, I think, that the war was not about slavery. As Abraham Lincoln himself said, "We must settle this question now, whether in a free government, the minority have the right to break up whenever they choose." He also said, "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with slavery in the states where it exists." In 1861 Congress backed this war aim. But why did the states secede? It was because of the election of a president hostile to slavery. Thus slavery was the main cause of the civil war. Some, including SftS, say that it was about state rights, but I reject this notion because if the Confederate States really cared about state rights, then they would never have pushed for the passing of the Fugitive Slave Act. Crucial to understanding what I said is the difference between war aims (what the war is about) and the causes of the conflict (why the war started).
If you are really being taught in school that slavery was only a minor issue in the civil war, then I am disgusted.
The "we" in the statement refers to me a spmetla and follows as a result of what he said in the post imediately before mine.
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
You're absolutely correct duke gloust. I was just trying to point out a bit more technical argument about the cause of the civil war although not trying to deny that slavery was the cause. You've definately shown yourself well read on the subject so there's not need to go discuss it further.
As for Mexico, the Texans didn't just rebel because Santa Anna was a dictator but also for the economic difficulties brought about by the abolishion of slavery in Mexico. This later on became a problem again when the US was deciding whether to annex Texas or not because the abolisionists argued that because slavery was illegal prior to the creation of the Republic of Texas it should remain illegal but because Texas was in the south (I know there's a bit more to this but too lazy to look it up right now) it should be brought into the union as a slave state.
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
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Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester
OT but interesting nevertheless.
Easy. It is clear, I think, that the war was not about slavery. As Abraham Lincoln himself said, "We must settle this question now, whether in a free government, the minority have the right to break up whenever they choose." He also said, "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with slavery in the states where it exists." In 1861 Congress backed this war aim. But why did the states secede? It was because of the election of a president hostile to slavery. Thus slavery was the main cause of the civil war. Some, including SftS, say that it was about state rights, but I reject this notion because if the Confederate States really cared about state rights, then they would never have pushed for the passing of the Fugitive Slave Act. Crucial to understanding what I said is the difference between war aims (what the war is about) and the causes of the conflict (why the war started).
If you are really being taught in school that slavery was only a minor issue in the civil war, then I am disgusted.
The "we" in the statement refers to me a spmetla and follows as a result of what he said in the post imediately before mine.
Can you say off topic? Enough about the civil war and texas and back to the flags please. I think most can agree that slavery was a cause maybe even a major one, that is one's own opinion, but it wasnt the only major cause.
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
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Originally Posted by AwesomeArcher
Can you say off topic? Enough about the civil war and texas and back to the flags please. I think most can agree that slavery was a cause maybe even a major one, that is one's own opinion, but it wasnt the only major cause.
Yea, i can agree with that. I still agree with archer about the biggest cause and why the war was fought, but duke made a solid arguement about slavery being the main cause and why the war was fought, but i think archer summed it up nicely. Now back to the mexican flag issue. Goofball, i have seen more politically incorrect, stupider, and more incorrect statements on this forum. Ja'chrya your must not be informed too well, immigrants stealing jobs is one of the biggest issues. enough about the mexicans in texas. Texas is part of the U.S. now, not mexico. And anyone can be well read on a subject these days, i search on google could find just about anything we have said on this forum, not to doubt you duke, but i am just saying that anyone can google a topic and get a load of information.
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
almost think that the illegal immigrants that are waving some of these flags aren't U.S. citizens so they don't have the freedom of speech and thereby cannot wave the mexican flag.
So foriegners don't have freedom of speech and cannot wave the mexican flag , but if they are Americans then they have freedom of speech and can wave whatever flag they want .
Hmmmm..... i think you should go back and wave your flag in your own country.
....but if they are Americans and want to wave any flag they want then they have no freedom of speech unless they leave the country??????.
I dont really get your last statement. What exactly are you saying? :inquisitive: Mexicans are part of the history of texas, but they arent part of texas itself. We fought them at the alamo and the rest of the war for Texas Independance.
But Texas was part of Mexico , and when Texas fought at the alamo it wasn't part of the US itself . And when a Texan flies the Confederate flag he is disrespecting the US flag by flying the symbol of treason aginst the US that was used by people who tried to leave the US .
Flags , a piece of cloth that carries a lot of crap with it .
Perhaps you missed the word "illegal immigrant" in my post, americans have the right to fly any flags they want, as long as they follow the proper protocol. In my statement "i think you should go back and wave your flag in your own country, i was talking about illegal immigrants, not U.S. citizens, who have the full rights of freedom of speech. Next time please quote my whole post and not bits and pieces that can be taken out of meaning.
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
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Originally Posted by AwesomeArcher
Also if you have an american who wants $15 an hour and an illegal immigrant who wants to work for $12, who are you going to hire? Regular americans pay for their healtcare with their taxes. People's taxes should be used elseware, so one could argue pretty stongly that illegals are stealing healthcare and jobs.
Incorrect, it is the employer that pays the taxes on behalf of the employee. The person not paying taxes is therefore not the illegal immigrant it is the employer who is exploiting him or her. The employers are only a half step above that of slave owners. They are using the situation the illegals are in to pay them as little as possible and avoid paying the government its due in taxes and I'm sure dodging Occupational Health and Safety regs and employee insurance too...
Oh and I'm pretty sure that the idea of Freedom of Speech is universal not just for people with a particular cardboard book with ink that states along the lines of "Citizen of the USA".
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
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Originally Posted by Papewaio
Incorrect, it is the employer that pays the taxes on behalf of the employee. The person not paying taxes is therefore not the illegal immigrant it is the employer who is exploiting him or her. The employers are only a half step above that of slave owners. They are using the situation the illegals are in to pay them as little as possible and avoid paying the government its due in taxes and I'm sure dodging Occupational Health and Safety regs and employee insurance too...
Oh and I'm pretty sure that the idea of Freedom of Speech is universal not just for people with a particular cardboard book with ink that states along the lines of "Citizen of the USA".
Ok, thanks for the clarification, it was somewhat what is was saying but you put it better. Our statements both say that they are stealing jobs from regular citizens. As for your statement on the freedom of speech, that is not a worldwide practice, some backwards countries dont have the freedom of speech. I dont think anyone ever flat out said that they didnt have the freedom of speech, but here bettkicker said that he almost thinks that. I think that saying they dont have it is a little harsh, but i can see the reasoning that they dont have it.
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Originally Posted by bettkicker19
Goofball you brought up a good point, i dont wholehartedly agree with the waving of confederate flags in the U.S., but there is one fact that i can't get passed, that the Confederates were part of the U.S. before the war and they still are today. The mexican flag is not a part of the U.S. and is being waved partly by people who arent citizens in this country. I almost think that the illegal immigrants that are waving some of these flags aren't U.S. citizens so they don't have the freedom of speech and thereby cannot wave the mexican flag. I know it is harsh, but if they use the law to defend them, then the law can be used against them.
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Re: Foreign Flags in the U.S.
Perhaps you missed the word "illegal immigrant" in my post, americans have the right to fly any flags they want, as long as they follow the proper protocol. In my statement "i think you should go back and wave your flag in your own country, i was talking about illegal immigrants, not U.S. citizens, who have the full rights of freedom of speech.
Oh I see , it is awesomely clear now . So....
Next time please quote my whole post and not bits and pieces that can be taken out of meaning.
Oh dear , thats a bit of a bugger then ,since what I wrote was general response to your entire tone on the subject , all the way from post#1 , and you clearly made no distinction between citizens and illegals .
