Empowering the "Victim" classes. Double standards?

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

I have an interesting idea.

We stop teaching about the slave trade, especially in America
Many of you will have already hit the Reply button by now, but I will continue.

I'm just as versed in the idea of 'history repeats itself', but here is the basis for my argument.
1.You teach students that disciminating on the basis of race is a bad thing, that all men are created equal. If you see someone attacking (physically or verbally) due to skin color, confront the person.

2.Don't teach about slavery in the South. This associates a stigma with being white, or that blacks were at one point slaves. Talk about how they came to America to work hard and earn their keep. Everyone is equal.

Why wouldn't this work?

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Because history is important and no one has the right to with hold it. You do and you will raise a generation of ignorant idiots who can't decide on their own future because they don't know their past. The past is there for us to learn from. The lesson we should learn about the slave trade is that discrimination is bad; any type of discrimination.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Well its more complex then the simple statement I am going to state. But most of it comes from the idiocy of people and the inability of society as a whole to to evaluate others based upon their individual behavior versus some other trait.

Once it starts it takes several generations to remove the idiocy from both groups. From the end of the civil war how many generations did it take for some to realize for all to be equal, all must be treated equal? Then one must look at how many generations since the Civil Rights movement took hold?

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That is an interesting thesis about the time scale in which such trends take hold, and the reason behind it. I do believe, however, that while AA as a policy is far, far from perfect, or even adequate, it does accelerate the process by artificially removing some of the crucial early hurdles that they face allowing the "liberation" to come closer to fact. I believe we wouldn't be as far in the progress today if the public was not forced to confront itself sometimes. At least the younger generation gets to grow up without the shackles and the lynchings still there, even if the mindset -- from both sides -- remains.

And it's rather better than the first time around, the "Reconstruction," where the federals did well nigh nothing to prevent the newly liberated ex-slaves from becoming de facto slaves again.

One could say I'm just naive to believe that we can try to balance gradualism with bursts of revolutionary jumps. :juggle2:

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

Why wouldn't this work?

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Because the kids will then grow up susceptible to racist propaganda instead of historical knowledge and soon we'll have a whole new generation of racists with progress back at square one?

That and preventing spread of information just because tends to make things pretty unpleasant in the long run.

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Because the kids will then grow up susceptible to racist propaganda instead of historical knowledge and soon we'll have a whole new generation of racists with progress back at square one?

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Doesn't the historical knowledge give us pre-concieved notions of racial ability. I could tell a child "You know about slavery? Thats because the Blacks were weak. See, look at all these years of slavery!" and that would make more sense. History isn't pure. Why would everyone revert to a racist, bigoted viewpoint if they think everyone is equal and that race doesn't matter?

Didn't Lenin say something about 'give me a generation and I will give you the world!'?

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

Didn't Lenin say something about 'give me a generation and I will give you the world!'?

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If he did say it, he was sadly mistaken. Turns out societies have looooong social memories, something a couple of generations of purges can't eliminate.

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Didn't Lenin say something about 'give me a generation and I will give you the world!'?

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damn , I thought that was Roger Daltrey .

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

Doesn't the historical knowledge give us pre-concieved notions of racial ability. I could tell a child "You know about slavery? Thats because the Blacks were weak. See, look at all these years of slavery!" and that would make more sense. History isn't pure. Why would everyone revert to a racist, bigoted viewpoint if they think everyone is equal and that race doesn't matter?

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"Look at all those ********** in the ghetto, you know why they live there ? Because they are weak" . What's the difference ? At least the historical perspective gives you part of the reason why so much of the 'underclass' has a darker skintone.

Even without this 'practical' issue, society remembers. The 'friendly' banter between the Flemish and the Dutch runs back to a war a few hundred years ago. the UK-France are in a similar situation. Most people probably have only vaguely heard about these wars (some boring histroy class they had to take) yet the effects are still clear. History is important so we wouldn't forget the reasons. If you'd look at the difference in social status between blacks and whites today, you might be inclined to draw all kinds of conclusions without the histrorical perspective. Perhaps they're just not as intelligent ? Perhaps we (whites) are superior ? See where this is going ?

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Originally Posted by Vuk

My older brother and I grew up without a father, working for everything we got.

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So I take it you were raised in the ghetto, between drug dealers and junkies, avoiding gang territory on your way to a high school that had metal detectors, and actually needed those, got a scholarship to college or worked to pay for it ?

Because that's the real situation a lot of them face. I'm not saying you didn't do well for yourself, congratulations and all, but how bad did you really have it ? AND you never had to face racial prejudgice (sp ?) when applying for a job I assume.

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

Even without this 'practical' issue, society remembers. The 'friendly' banter between the Flemish and the Dutch runs back to a war a few hundred years ago.

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Not that mutual mia muca, we dutchies have nothing against the flemish, the other way around............ well :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Not that mutual mia muca, we dutchies have nothing against the flemish, the other way around............ well :sweatdrop:

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You're probably right that we tend to be the worst offenders in this particular fued :embarassed:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

If he did say it, he was sadly mistaken. Turns out societies have looooong social memories, something a couple of generations of purges can't eliminate.

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People's memories are distorted with predjudice and tall tales. People believe what they are taught, and it is important to teach them the truth.

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

So I take it you were raised in the ghetto, between drug dealers and junkies, avoiding gang territory on your way to a high school that had metal detectors, and actually needed those, got a scholarship to college or worked to pay for it ?

Because that's the real situation a lot of them face. I'm not saying you didn't do well for yourself, congratulations and all, but how bad did you really have it ? AND you never had to face racial prejudgice (sp ?) when applying for a job I assume.

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No, I didn't grow up with gangs, but neither was I stupid enough to join them. You forget that a lot of whites/hispanics/and others grow up in those types of situations also. Most have the chance to leave, but don't. You can cry all you like, but the truth is that very few people in the US are unable to better their standing and social situation.

I grew up in antarctic Wisconsin, and have went -40 days without boots before. I am not saying that a LOT of people don't have it harder than me, but I had it pretty hard - esp. since I came from a family of 8!

Yes, I have faced discrimination when applying for jobs, not so much racial (that I know) as sexual. One of my best friends (who I dated for a while) and was not nearly as qualified as me got a job over me because of her sex. That is just stupid. Company owners should be able to hire the best for their company, regardless of sex or race. It is funny, the best student in my graduation class was Hispanic, if people got jobs based on merit, he would have no trouble at all.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

ther was I stupid enough to join them. You forget that a lot of whites/hispanics/and others grow up in those types of situations also. Most have the chance to leave, but don't. You can cry all you like, but the truth is that very few people in the US are unable to better their standing and social situation.

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Perhaps true, and that's also what 'positive' discrimination is about. If people see more people 'like them' making it in the world, maybe they'll actually believe it's possible for them too. There are thousands of stories here about kids of immigrants not getting a decent education because the jobs just go to the whiter guys anyway. They give up, and some get angry at society and become criminals (I admit, JAG-like simplification of the situation).

Think about it, if you where black and every store owner, politician, company owner and whatnot was white, you get the opportunity to receive the best education possible, free of charges. Would you really believe you could make it in live ? No one else did. Won't you figure there must be a catch ?

These psychological barriers are real, and they CAN be overcome with time, and a little faster with some help (from the government).

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

Perhaps true, and that's also what 'positive' discrimination is about. If people see more people 'like them' making it in the world, maybe they'll actually believe it's possible for them too. There are thousands of stories here about kids of immigrants not getting a decent education because the jobs just go to the whiter guys anyway. They give up, and some get angry at society and become criminals (I admit, JAG-like simplification of the situation).

Think about it, if you where black and every store owner, politician, company owner and whatnot was white, you get the opportunity to receive the best education possible, free of charges. Would you really believe you could make it in live ? No one else did. Won't you figure there must be a catch ?

These psychological barriers are real, and they CAN be overcome with time, and a little faster with some help (from the government).

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First, you are wrong. Minorities are no longer discriminated against for jobs. It is true that some people still have predjudices, but they cannot be changed with laws. You can't force people to give people of a certain skin colour a job over someone of another skin colour. That is just as bad. The government should not let people get away with discrimination - not force them to discriminate!!
Not to cliche blacks at all, but one of the reasons for predjudice is that the blacks feel they are victims and don't have to work as hard as everyone else, which is doing a lot of bad for their race. They get this victim complex from laws like the ones we are speaking of.
The government has to squash racial discrimination - not force it!

EDIT: You said "positive discrimination". I must once again say: Discrimination is Discrimination. If you discriminate, then people are not equal, and as long as you discriminate, they never will be.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

First, you are wrong. Minorities are no longer discriminated against for jobs. It is true that some people still have predjudices, but they cannot be changed with laws. You can't force people to give people of a certain skin colour a job over someone of another skin colour. That is just as bad. The government should not let people get away with discrimination - not force them to discriminate!!
Not to cliche blacks at all, but one of the reasons for predjudice is that the blacks feel they are victims and don't have to work as hard as everyone else, which is doing a lot of bad for their race. They get this victim complex from laws like the ones we are speaking of.
The government has to squash racial discrimination - not force it!

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Well, you didn't adress my psychological barrier point. And that's one of the important things behind AA. It should become accepted that people of all clours and etnicities can have jobs in all layers of society, so that people can actually believe that they too stand a chance. That education and work is a way out of the misery.

I don't agree with your 'not having to work as everyone else' statement either. If they are mostly poor and white people are mostly middle class (broad generaliztion warning !) than it stands to reaosn that most of them do have to work harder (than the average person) to get anywhere in live.

There probably is a victim complex, which probably has a lot to due with important black leaders during the civil rights struggle getting assassinated. They did once try to keep the black man down. It's hard for some people (or a segment of society) to accept that things have changed that much by now.

Look at the Jews (not that I have got anything against them), some of them are still crying about the holocaust (which was indeed terrible) and that was much longer ago than the civil rights struggle (nearly twice as long ago).

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

Well, you didn't adress my psychological barrier point. And that's one of the important things behind AA. It should become accepted that people of all clours and etnicities can have jobs in all layers of society, so that people can actually believe that they too stand a chance. That education and work is a way out of the misery.

I don't agree with your 'not having to work as everyone else' statement either. If they are mostly poor and white people are mostly middle class (broad generaliztion warning !) than it stands to reaosn that most of them do have to work harder (than the average person) to get anywhere in live.

There probably is a victim complex, which probably has a lot to due with important black leaders during the civil rights struggle getting assassinated. They did once try to keep the black man down. It's hard for some people (or a segment of society) to accept that things have changed that much by now.

Look at the Jews (not that I have got anything against them), some of them are still crying about the holocaust (which was indeed terrible) and that was much longer ago than the civil rights struggle (nearly twice as long ago).

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I did address the "psychological barrier". I believe that it is caused by AA and "empowering victim policies". It makes them think that they need help, and are not good enough to do things themselves, thus a victim complex.
Not to generalize blacks, but a big reason blacks are stuck where they are is because they refuse to move. You have a lot of ambitious blacks that work hard and make things of themselves (with out needing help), but unfortunately, a lot of blacks are not willing to work and straighten up, content instead to keep recieving the bread that the government keeps handing them. And as long as the government keeps handing them bread, they are unlikely to get up and move. You see? It is your very policy of empowering th victim that is keeping them back. I have had a lot of experience with blacks and I know what I am talking about. Also, those policies breed hate of whites in blacks, and makes whites think very poorly of blacks.

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