EB Ruined My Greeks

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Originally Posted by Ecramer

So, uh . ..I'm a rather new EB convert (played RTR up to about a week ago), and I'd just like to say that me reading this soap opera of a thread starting from talking about KH to bitter dispute over the spartan unit was the most entertaining 40 minutes of my spring break...

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You havent seen anything yet!

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Originally Posted by PSYCHO V

Yes but you’ve missed the point Dave. Contrary to what you keep inferring, ie. the ‘experts’ / historians are all happy with it as if this depiction was of their choosing, it wasn’t the case. The ‘experts’ were dragged kicking and screaming to make compromises because the unwashed, uneducated ‘barbarian’ plebs said “hang on, that’s just bullshit”. Its sad but people had to resign before some could concede (though never overtly) they were wrong / had exaggerated the “reasonable-ness” of the depiction. The point, the so-called ‘experts’ aren’t infallible.

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Sorry, gotta post again. Although I did not initially work with the artist (as in, before the first WIP image was posted), as one of the "experts" on the faction, I have now taken a look back at my comments (almost a year ago exactly), and need to say a few things here. My first reaction and first glance post was complimenting the artist (if you've got any sense, you *always* do that first), and told him that I loved it (after all, it was a beautiful and glorious work of art). I did say though that the cloak looked too flashy for sure and the first thing we should do was tone it down. My second post, on the next day, after looking at it in more detail, was longer and here is all of it (unedited) that spoke to the unit.

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Was the standard soldier equipped in such a way as our screenshot shows? I don't know, and no one else knows for sure, but I'll say that I think probably not. Some individual ones might have been, serving in southern italy, egypt, crete, etc., could lead to this especially with their track record over the past century in dealing with Persians and other eastern monarchs and with their current king. But it does seem to ask too much to expect them all to look this way. If we had unlimited skinners and unit space, I'd suggest having something like this but maybe toned down just a bit as the starting spartiates, and then possibly with a reformer who comes along later remove these and have instead a much less elaborate spartiate unit that is actually stronger. Let's please work together and come up with something that is appropriate for 272 and not on either extreme. Refusing to make any changes or threatening to reskin it entirely for optional download would both be too extreme I think.

I'm personally willing to probably let it go a little more towards elaborateness than "Spartanness" though, for two reasons - 1. to somewhat contradict the standard 479 BC ideas of Spartans that most people have and that by this time that are outdated, and 2. to allow the most elite unit in this faction to be a little more graphically interesting for the players. That doesn't mean ahistorical, but if we are thinking about the range of what they actually looked like then maybe going a little more to luxuriousness than one strictly in the middle of that range would look like. But what are the offending details here anyway? The greaves' ornamentation? Do we have any sources? The breastplate, the breastplate's carving, the detail of the breastplate's mouldings? The helmet is even less fancy than some of the ones Matt showed me from this time period, and it seems like more restraint was placed there than I expected. The sword hilt? Let's see it in an in-game photo and then offer up our suggestions.

In the end I really hope we can present a fairly united front to the public on this unit. Some people will have a cemented 479BC spartan in their heads and won't budge and will complain. Some people really don't like very plain spartans either and are going to complain. Let's be patient with it and work together.

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Too bad I was being so unreasonable and so unwilling to listen to other points of view. :laugh4: This clearly sets out how I deal with almost everything in the mod too - and if anyone thinks it is not so, feel free to say so here. I try to limit the third, fourth, fifth, etc. criticism of units so that we can keep pushing forward and our artists don't get exasperated. I try to complement everyone who does real work as much as possible. I pick up every bit of slack I can and keep up good humor and use happy and laughing smilies enough to make it embarrassing. Take the middle road. Go out of your way to find new buildings for factions that don't have enough. Help write descriptions for most of Sabaean buildings. Take the initiative and push for new Carthaginian monuments and every unique building in "barbarian" lands that has been submitted (save one bathtub-sized one). Your comments on my dealing with this hurts me very much, and you are relentless in depicting me as some sort of monster (and you'll quote this and say I'm exaggerating here too, keeping up the act). Ask any member we have ever had here mate. You alone have this attitude/opinion from anything at all that I have seen.

My third post on the matter:

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Matt already explained that this is not gold but bronze and brass. And the idea that Sparta is a spent force in 270 and thus they can't field a force so luxuriously endowed is exactly what I tried to explain is just wrong. Even though they were much stronger militarily and politically at an earlier period, in this period they may have been weaker (not "spent" though) but were given over much more to luxury (which this king was said to have brought to sparta) than in earlier times. It's exactly the opposite. The unit will be simplified - if people aren't happy with the changes, then take it from there, but let aymar or agart tone it down and put it in the game first.

Why should anyone bother writing anything about any context for the unit historically...

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The bold is added now - but that's exactly what we did. At first glance it was so beautiful, and everyone said so, but we (yes, I did say "we", though some members had stronger feelings than others) quickly started talking about ways to simplify it, and that's what we ultimately did.

Oh yeah, the person who objected the most is still on the team also, and I respect him a great deal (even more so in the last day because he told us to bring a particular person onto the team two weeks ago, and we only just now are doing it - but he was right for sure when he first said it). No one quit over that unit. It's been a year after all.

edit: Oh, that bold "and put it in the game first" was *definitely* not referring to submitting it officially - just getting a shot of it in RTW and not just as a render in the modelling program.

http://www.rahoi.com/2006/03/may-i-take-your-order.php

I hope you guys see this...

And instead of spartan agoe at Athens, how 'bout just putting that type 2 in (the one with there name). If this doesnt make sense just ignore:sweatdrop:

EDIT: Oh Sh!t I never knew how to post a hyperlink but I did....

After careful deliberations in the Star Chamber, my I********i brethren have dictated that this thread be silenced since it has clearly run it's course.