Printable View
That rational for having the timer came from Creative Assembly, and is one of the things they did to make battles seem larger scale. Other things are the limited camera height, shortened range for shooters, fatigue rate and limited range of morale effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
Hello,
This is the scene, as far as I know:
Top of the picture is North. The blue line at the top is the Saigawa river. The diagonal one is the Chikumagawa. The two blac lines are fords, the northern one is the Hirose, the southern is the Amenoyima.
The dark green on the left is the Chausuyama (mountain/hill), the one at the bottom is the Saijosan height.
The brown square is Kaizu castle held by Takeda.
The plain doesn't only have those two large rivers, but also several brooks.
Uesugi (blue) arrived from the North at the 25th September 1561 from the North, crossed the Chikumagawa at the southern ford, occupied Saijosan and thus threatened Kaizu castle.
Shingen received the commanders stresscall and entered the field at the 3rd of October and occupies the other hill (black).
Shingen quickly left his hill at the 8th and reinforced Kaizu.Kenshin didn't move.
Kansuke, Takedas general devised a pincher move: the woodpecker force (brown) would scare Uesugi off the hill, Uesugi would run home (or at least need time to regroup on the westbank). Takedas crane would destroy Uesugi there (the Woodpecker being on their tail).
Uesugi received reports about Takeda movements and anticipated, at least partly, the plan. And deviced a counter. Shingen was quite a warlord and had able generals, it's tricky to give him the initiative. Uesugi had his hill, but an enemy force was manoeuvred in the night up there too. Where would it strike the next morning?
Uesugi also thinked further ahead:the Takeda forces were split and anticipated to launch a surprise pincher. The mainbody would be weakened and was only prepared to slay a confused and routing army. If Kenshin would make the right move, he could kill Shingen and defeat the whole of the Takeda forces.
So Kenshin sneaked down and crossed the same ford again, he left a 1,000 force to guard it (this would cut of routing Takeda after the main attack succeeded, but would also stop the Woodpecker). The attack was going to be the two colum 'winding wheel'.
The Takeda crane didn't hear 'the run for you life' calls and didn't get a routing enemy to slaughter, instead they faced a strong Uesugi attack. The Woodpecker, now on top of the hill, and no doubt being lost about the disbandoned enemy camp, heard battle cries and rushed down again. They planned to cross the river between the two fords (shortest route), but where stopped.
Uesugi almost succeeded, but his rear force of 1,000 wasn't enough to stop the 12,000 for long.
There are, as often, different accounts on the casualties. Uesugi arrived with, so it's said, 18,000 and Takeda took over 3,000 heads. That would be ~20%.
Different accounts and also different divisions: Uesugi for example had a baggage train + army of 2,000 that didn't take part in the actual fighting, but safeguarded the retreat. It was a bloody battle.
Hmmmm
I reread the Japanese Wikipedia.
Apparently the woodpecker force could have been defeated and the plan would still work. Probably that should Kenshin defeat the Takeda force, he would think he had won the battle and start moving back to Echigo, which is when he would be hit hard by a fresh Takeda force, at the same time the woodpecker force could rally and hit him from the rear.
So by moving off the mountain, Kenshin ensured that even if he is defeated, he has a clear route of retreat back to Echigo. Now it makes sense.
According to Japanese Wikipedia. Kenshin left 5000 of the 18000 men force he start out with at that monastary on the route to Echigo.
And I just realized. Shingen's position effectively placed his troops with their back to the river. No wonder they held so long.
And I thought the kurumagakari (wheel spokes) formation was more a circle. A multi-layer circle. Sort of like 4 units deep in the centre, 3 beside it, 2, then 1. With the attackers rotating like a wheel.
Hello Parallel Pain,
Yes, the 5,000. That's something that's not 100% clear to me. Kenshin left those 5,000 north of the Saigawa when he crossed it to enter the plain at the 25th. I don't know whether they stayed there the whole time or whether they joined the Saijosan. I guess they stayed, as safeguarding the escape route is vital.
The baggage train was guarded by a force too, which would also help Kenshin get away when things went wrong. -2,000. So, what's left was 11,000. And we can bet that the whole 1,000 of the rearguard got whiped out.
I'm not sure how the wheel spokes worked. But this attack started in two colums. One unit engages, gives way and is replaced by the other.
What you say must have crossed Kenshins mind too: at least I can get away now.
Kenshins plan would have worked had the rearguard managed to hold the WoodPecker. 12,000 vs 1,000 is a lot, even when having a river in between. I guess Kenshin either didn't know how large the pecker force was (can't even be sure he knew), or gambled that he would kill Shingen quickly enough.
"Yeah, I never accept the Portuguese' offer to become Catholic. While the religious income is nice and early Arqs can be useful, it's still almost never worthwhile for me. Aside from risking revolt and the fact that Arquebusiers aren't *that* nice, I also don't like losing the ability to train WM."
___________________________________________________________________
I keep a rather different pov on that.....I ALWAYS accept the first offer that comes along (except as Mori---for obvious reasons). Why? Plain & simple:
MUSKETS RULE!
The idea is not to get the arquebus, but the muskets! You can accept the Portuguese offer at any time but you will stay Buddhist until the moment you build your first trading post. This gives you time to prepare your province pacification program-----shinobi.
Since I make extensive use of them for both defensive and offensive schemes anyway, this is not a problem. Once I have at least two or more shinobi in each of my provinces (more in those previously mentioned Buddhist provinces, if I own any of them), then I go ahead and begin my trading posts. The extra 200 koku income from each comes in very handy during lean harvest years.
I may or may not build any arquebus units at all. It depends on what clan I am playing, the strategic situation, and what upgrades are available (a +3 to attack will do very nicely for holding Owari against all comers, for instance).
As Hojo, you can now go on to build a Gun Factory in Hitachi (after all the appropriate buildings are in place); as Takeda, Aki can do the same; as Shimazu, Nagato will serve the function. As Uesugi or Imagawa you will have to capture one of those provinces.
Now you can make muskets........and years before any of your rivals!:yes:
As to WM......I hardly ever use them anymore, so it's not a big deal to lose the capability to produce them (if later on I capture a Temple Complex in Kaga or Kii, I may keep them to produce a few). Like a previous poster said, No Dachi are cheaper to produce and, with proper armor upgrades make much better flankers than WM's.
Besides, try holding a bridge with WM units against 5-6,000 troops trying to "convince" you to vacate:inquisitive:
I've had many epic battles in my various campaigns (from easy to expert) and most of them involve the integral use of muskets with various other types of units (depending on province and clan) in stopping multiple stacks (sometimes as many as six at one time) from evicting me from a province.
For those who love defending Shinano (or hate it!) there's a beautiful and yet classic way to defend that doesn't involve swarms of archers standing on that big western hill (which gets to be boooooring to me after awhile).
The added income benefits and the ability to create musket units many years before your rivals get them are, IMHO, the two main reasons for accepting the Portuguese offer ASAP..........
For those having trouble deciding how to develop, I have these suggestions:
Always look at your bank account at the beginning of each turn and plan what you will be able to do for the year. Add up the total of your planned building upgrades and balance that with your unit needs. As you get better at conducting battles, you will be able to do more with less troops and need less replacements after a battle thus reducing your unit costs and making more koku available for buildings and other upgrades.
Pay special attention to provincial bonus....and take as much advantage of them as you can (that extra +1 honor can often make the difference between victory and defeat in high level battles on expert setting where the AI gets a +2 bonus for its troops).
Don't bother upgrading farming in areas with under 200 koku yield. It just takes waaaaay too long to see the return on your investment (sometimes over 20years). But instead, concentrate your upgrades on those provinces with much better yields. It also takes a very long time to see a return from lvl 2 copper mines.....I never bother with them unless I've developed the province for other reasons, and have extra koku to burn.
Build ports judiciously at the start.....have a planned line-of-advance and build a port at each corner of your line where you plan on stopping (even if only temporary). Getting troops back and forth from your front lines is crucial in holding lines against multiple-stack attacks......you need to be able to get your troops R&R, and ready your counterattack as quickly as possible. Later, you can add ports wherever you see fit, and as koku permits.
At any rate, hope at least some part of this helps........
I thought the weapon bonus didn't apply to ranged weapons, just to the melee weapons of the ranged troops?Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
Anyway, Tosa, thanks for that account ~:)
"I thought the weapon bonus didn't apply to ranged weapons, just to the melee weapons of the ranged troops?"
___________________________________________________________________
I would venture by my experience with combat results that weapon bonus does apply to ranged weapons. Someone with better knowledge than me concerning STW e-files might answer this more definitively:book:
I have STW/WE and the card icon that shows up at the bottom for a ranged unit during battle shows the daggers (+1, +2, +3, as well as any armor upgrades). Now whether this means it's applied during a battle.....I don't know....but again, I notice significant differences in kill numbers the higher the weapon bonus..........
Correct. All weapon/honour bonuses affect melee combat only.
"Correct. All weapon/honour bonuses affect melee combat only."
___________________________________________________________________
I'm not asking this to be insulting in any way but........you're absolutely sure about that?
I could swear that during body counts (and in looking at the battle results dump which can be created for each battle that the more weapon upgrades I added to my archers and/or muskets, the higher the kill ratio).
Again, I have little knowledge of the workings of the STW e-file, so I may just be full of it.........................
I've been told that it doesn't. I can't say I ever looked into it deep enough to be sure though. But I think there's no doubt anyway. Other's have done that testing, etc. ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
btw, Tosa and Parallel Pain, how do you know all this? I'm puzzled. :dizzy2: Very nice to read about a historical battle, and the trics/tactics of those 2 brilliant generals. Thanks for the story's! :book:
Ah, ReluctantSamurai. I never actually built a weapon factory in so many games.. Guess that's because I only very rarely became christian. Reading your experiences on this, makes me want to try the Portugese offer again. I always found the benefit of having arq's inferior to the loyalty problems. Yet you are of course right, could just as well train muskets with their offer. I'm definitely going to try in my next Sengoku Jidai campaign! :book: :yes:
Wow, I haven't had time to stop by and I'm glad--some great reading here. Thanks to all.
***
Yeah, it's been exhaustively documented that wep bonuses affect only melee, not ranged effectiveness. Honor, on the other hand, has an affect, though the magnitude has been debated some. I think the standing position is that honor upgrades offer a slight improvement to ranged performance, but only for the first few levels before the benefit seems neglible when considering the cost of the upgrade (this has been discussed primarily in terms of guns over the last few years).
"I always found the benefit of having arq's inferior to the loyalty problems."
___________________________________________________________________
You won't have any problems if you prepare ahead of time with shinobi. I go Christian nearly all the time now, and once I learned to post enough shinobi up, I've never had a province go rebel. After a year or two, things calm down especially after you get a few churches built, and by the time you're ready for the cathedral, everyone is happy as pigs in.......well you know:laugh4:
And as I said, I may build several arquebus for river provinces, but I don't start building guns units wholesale until I can produce the musket.
Hello Drisos,
There's of course Wikipedia, always a nice first step:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Kawanakajima
From Samurai-archives:
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/ind...f_Kawanakajima
http://www.answers.com/topic/battles-of-kawanakajima
An Osprey book:
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S5627
Yes, well I never use those guns in my STW campaigns because they are a mistake that unbalances the game. I put the arq's and muskets back to the original STW stats before MI was released because those are the gun stats that the official designer of the battles chose.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
In regard to arqs vs. muskets in SP, etc., here's my take:
Both cause a serious morale drop for the unit being fired upon. This is the real weapon. Kills ... cool, but I can kill more by routing them and then sending my reserve cav to run them down when they flee.
Hence, if I decide to use guns, I'll usually use both in a SP game--arqs as soon as I can, muskets when they become available. I don't take a lot though, especially arqs. They don't fire in rain, which limits their usefulness under such conditions. They can still be used to bolster the morale of engaged units by positioning them appropriately, to distract and divert, and to soak up arrow fire, etc..
I prefer to build my gunner training centers in either Owari or Tosa for the ashigaru honor bonus. I find +1 Attack, +1 Defense, and +2 Morale a better overall bonus than +1 Defense, +1 Armor (armor doesn't affect bullet penetration much anyway ...). As neither of these provinces have iron and sand deposits, I usually go Christian in a game where I intend to harness the gaijin weapons. "Timing is everything," and I usually don't wait for the Dutch. By the time they arrive, Japan should be pretty much dominated, if not completely.
That being said, I often take a hardcore traditional stance and do not use guns at all. Unfortunately, the AI doesn't make very good use of them, so it doesn't give the enemy much of an advantage, if any--assuming they even get a chance to build them.
"Yes, well I never use those guns in my STW campaigns because they are a mistake that unbalances the game."
"That being said, I often take a hardcore traditional stance and do not use guns at all."
____________________________________________________________________
I've modified the stat files for both to reflect the designers original intent. Also, I don't see why not using guns is considered "a hardcore traditional stance." After all, if one of the great generals of the time saw fit to employ them in numbers and develop tactics for them, who would know better than Oda Nobunaga?:smash:
All joking aside, I don't "abuse" the use of guns. And by that I mean that I realize the AI doesn't use them very well, so I don't take unfair advantage by loading up (no pun intended:laugh4: ) on muskets. I typically employ 2-3 in an army.....more for bridge provinces or "ironing-board" topography provinces.
I rarely ever have more than 4 in an army, and even then it would be only temporary. I prefer a balanced approach......the remaining units typically would be 2 CA, 2 YC, 2-4 SA, and the balance infantry units (YS & ND mostly). This mix gets varied depending on terrain, and what the enemy is likely to bring to the battlefield.
Didn't Yuuki say that the guns are unbalanced in STW:MI?
I can't claim I don't use guns at all, but I do use them only rarely. (In addition, I never accept the Portuguese offer to trade, which means I don't get arqs/mukets until after the Dutch show up.) I tend to be more of a traditionalist in this regard -- I much prefer arrows to gunpowder & musket balls. ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
Guns are indeed overpowered in Mongol Invasion, but I don't remember by how much. (Puzz would know.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Parallel Pain
Yes, guns are strong in 1.02--enough so that they command a lot more respect--no more charging full or near-full teppo units directly with cavalry. If they have a clear line of fire, approaching directly with infantry is also sure death and rout. Archers can seriously hurt teppos with their higher accuracy and better rate of fire--particularly with altitude advantage, but they will lose a shoot out in the long run because they have considerably less ammo (unless of course, you time your oblique cavalry attack against the attritioned teppo units just right ... and pull them out before the counter cav or spears get to you).
1.02 teppos can make taking a defensive stance more difficult as well; if you don't have a decent position and parity countering enemy guns, you have to move and attack/counterattack cleverly to avoid getting slowly shot to pieces.
One of the most annoying things for some folks is that you pretty much have to take teppo if your enemies have them (especially in MP; I very rarely saw less than three teppo units in a 1.02 army that was effective; four was the typical number taken, the max allowed with our rule set). The exception would be a "rush" army, which only a few players/teams knew how to use well consistently.
I play 1.02 MI in SP frequently and don't find the overpowered guns to be a big issue. I just don't take many of them, if any, and if the enemy has them, I respect their power and deal with them accordingly.
In 1.02, talented MP players have proven that an army of high-level "super" ashigaru (Honor 8-9 w/lots of wep and armor upgrades) and teppo can beat just about any army. In this sense, it is definitely "unbalanced." Hence, most serious players in MP feel that 1.02 requires rules to (somewhat) balance the play. Ours was "4 max no ashi," which meant you could take a max of four of any one type of unit, and ashigaru spearmen were prohibited.
In SP, we can adjust our playing style to "balance" out game play and enjoy the many good points of 1.02 (good in my mind, at least).
With the WE that is what I do (as well as using modified stats), and "traditional" or "untraditional" I see no shame is using guns. They do not win the campaign for me........battles, yes......but there are many many battles to be fought, many of them 'sans' the muskets. And mistakes or laxity on the strat map, while usually not lethal, can cause one large headaches, guns or no.PHP Code:In SP, we can adjust our playing style to "balance" out game play
I have a greedy Daimyo who just can t wait to get his hands on those guns. I use them, overpowered or not, rejoicing in the new toys.
Of course it usually ends up backfiring... (pun intended).
I follow Martok, unless I play as Oda and want something different. But, usually it's the traditional way for me too.
Say Tosa
You know that battle where Nobunaga crushed Takeda Katsuyori, Nagashino I think it was
Why did the Takeda Cavalry charge at all?
I mean I get the rain thing, but it should be obvious their cavalry can't get pass the stockade rain or shine and will be just left out in the open for archers and arquebouses, while a few spearmen block the stockade entrances.
I mean why oh why did they charge the stockade at all? After all a stockade is a set defence, Takeda could just move to another battlefield and Nobunaga's stockade would be useless.
At least in Kagemusha, Katsuyori seemed desperate to win without Shingen backing him up, so I'd say he got arrogant and rash.
But that's just the movie, of course ~;)
The stockade was probably a much smaller thing than what's depicted in the very nice movie. There's a picture in STW (campmap\Info-Pics\trp0009.tga), that's about the pallisade used.
That looked brittle and insignificant, certainly not something that would stop a horse.
From Japanese wiki:
この柵についても、通説では馬防柵などと呼ばれ、騎馬の侵入を防ぐ為の（牧場の囲い柵を連想するような）ものと思われがちだが、柵の跡と一緒に堀や盛り土の土手の跡も見つかっている。つまりこの柵は単体で使用した ものではなく、ここに簡単な城もしくは砦か大規模な陣城を築いて戦った跡だと考えられる。
In other words. The stockade wasn't such light fortifications as a thin bamboo fence. It was almost a fort.
Though I admit I still have to look through carefully at the entire article.
That's possible Parallel Pain. There are different accounts.
There's a (suggested) reconstruction of the battlefield: page 72 http://books.google.nl/books?id=xFaC...hl=nl#PPA72,M1
I do not deny the fence was effective, but it (seemed to) looked brittle. Quite different from the one in the movie.
Muskets have a limited lethal effectivity versus armoured samurai. It can still kill at longer ranges of course, but armour would be able to stop many at say 50-100 meters (ignoring the accuracy bit). Of course: what about the horse?
Cavalry in charge would only need a few seconds to cross the killing zone. Just in front of the barricade was a small river and that slowed the charge quite a bit.
The movie makes it look like only the guns acted. There was hand to hand combat.
Katsuyori almost looks like a lunatic in the movie. He wanted to 'better' Shingen and was a bit bold. But he also underestimated and failed to see the situation. It's suggested that the scout reports were not complete and the situation doesn't look that bad from a first glance. It's the famous Takeda cavalry versus some low class Oda infantry.
The Oda/Tokugawa forces had a stack of several terrain advantages. Page 70 and 71 give an impression of this. Woods, high ground, river, man made barricades.
Even the simple fortifications as seen in that book is enough to stop cavalry, what with the banks and everything.
And I never seen the movie. I think Katsuyori must have had a reason to fight, I just don't know what it is.
Yes, all together it was enough. The point is, that it probably doesn't look so tough. It's a stack of little things: a cute river, a small slope, some fences, a couple of so called bushis :shrugs: Mighty Takeda cavalry. Charge!
The bank was important:
The reason to attack there and then? He was there on a campaign and sieged Nagashino castle. An Oda/Tokugawa relief force popped up and Katsuyori thought he could beat them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TosaInu
He was probably a bit frustrated in failing to take the castle, Shingen already defeated both armies before, that's the emotional part of him attacking.
The second is that it didn't look so bad in his mind, underestimated but insufficient scouting is reported too.
His veteran generals did not agree, but had to follow.
To 'excuse' Katsuyori: Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Hideyoshi are three formidable generals and knew how to play tricks.
Ok I read J-wiki
I will try to throw aside all the legends and exaggerations and work on history
Forces:
1) At Shitaraga Plain, Oda-Tokugawa numbered about 18 000, Takeda 7000
2) Oda-Tokugawa had at least 1000 arquebous at Shitaraga Plain
3) Though called a plain, Shitaraga Plain is far from wide open space, but filled with low hills and a river too. Nobunaga built ramparts and stockade to further reinforce his position.
Battle:
1) Under Sakai Tadatsugu, the siege of Nagashino Castle was broken during the night of June 28th (western calender, May 20th by traditional Asian calender) by a successful night assault on the five Takeda Forts built to surround Nagashino.
2) June 29th Katsuyori moved to Shitagara Plain for the battle.
3) Katsuyori tried to overcome the Oda-Tokugawa with a double envelopment. However, the Takeda centre under Takeda Nobutoyo withdrew prematurely (and without orders), resulting in the flanks having to take more of the fighting than they should. In addition, Nobunaga had concentrated much firepower on his flanks.
4) After hours of heavy fighting, Nobunaga ordered his men (reserves probably) forward. The Takeda, having taken heavy punishment, routed and were cut down.
5) Casualties was 1000~2000 Takeda and 600 Oda-Tokugawa (counting the battle at Shitaraga Plain only). The problem for Katsuyori was that amongst the casualties were too many of Takeda's veteran generals and lords.
Reason's for Takeda's defeat:
1) Numbers (try defeating an army over twice your size)
2) The grounds and defences limited Takeda's attack and suited Oda-Tokugawa's defensive stance
3) Guns
4) Disagreements amongst the Takeda
Why Katsuyori had to fight at Nagashino:
Under Shingen, the plan was to crush the Oda clan by the surrounding daimyo such as Azai, Asakura. But by Nagashino, Azai and Asakura had already been crushed. The Oda clan was growing stronger by the day. If Katsuyori does not fight, the next time the two sides meet Katsuyori could be facing even worse odds. If he does not defeat the Oda now, he wouldn't ever be able to.
(Katsuyori might have decided against a defensive position as he would have faced the force Sakai Tadatsugu plus the defenders of Nagashino on his flank or rear, while Oda-Tokugawa attacked him from the front. He can't withdraw, as that would insure his doom in the long run. With the seige broken and the castle reinforced, Katsuyori can not assault the castle and take it before Oda-Tokugawa fell on his rear. Therefore his only hope of victory is to attack and defeat the Oda-Tokugawa force. He is forced to fight even when all the odds are stacked against him. Even if Katsuyori does win, what's left of his force is not enough to continue the campaign and maybe not even to take Nagashio. Campaign-wise Takeda had already lost. Their only hope of real victory is if they can take the head of Nobunaga)
On the other hand Nobunaga did not even need to fight at Nagashino. With the arrival of his forces, his agreement with Ieyasu has been reached and Katsuyori can't continue the seige. If Katsuyori choose to withdraw, the campaign is won. If Katsuyori choose to fight, as long as Oda-Tokugawa force does not loose the campaign is won. Therefore the huge number and preparations are not to win, but to not loose. By Sakai Tadatsugu's night attack, Takeda's route of retreat was threatened, Nagashino saved, Oda-Tokugawa's morale raised, Oda's power and friendship to Tokugawa demonstrated, and Katsuyori is forced on a time-limit to fight or not.
In short, by Oda's arrival, Nobunaga (as said before) had already won.
Things about the battle:
1) Takeda's legendary cavalry likely did not exist, as from contemporary sources nothing of the such was mentioned. Even if it did, it was likely only 10% of the Takeda's force.
2) The battle went from morning to early afternoon. Therefore for hours the Takeda force had to take the punishing fire from Nobunaga's arquebous.
3) The arquebous did not do the damage as seen in the movie. They but worn down the Takeda. The rampart and other ashigaru forces stopped the Takeda attack. The real blow came at about 1 or 2 PM when Nobunaga ordered his flanks forward (the center stayed put behind the stockade). The Takeda force was tired out after hours of fighting, their ranks disorganized, and had no reserves and were routed. Most of the casualties were inflicted here (as always).
In conclusion, Katsuyori ws neither stupid nor rash. He just gambled on his only chance at victory and lost.