Cotta, having returned to the Curia some time ago, rises.
I was under the impression that the Heres would be acting Consul until we had another senator of the rank of Dux.
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Cotta, having returned to the Curia some time ago, rises.
I was under the impression that the Heres would be acting Consul until we had another senator of the rank of Dux.
And what would you have us new Legates of the two Legions do? Shall we stay with the army?
Sorry, I didn't understand the question. Can you elaborate?
A magistrate speaks from the side...
"Our Dictator will remain Consul of Finance and our Heres shall be acting Consul of the Legions."
OOC: Ya well for now till someone makes Dux it has to be this way i guess.
Beaming, Servivs Sempronivs Longvs enters the Curia.
"Good citizens of Roma, I thank you for this great honour you have given me by giving me control of the Legio III. I will serve glorious Roma to the best of my abilities and i hope to expand Roma's borders with this legion. I thank you for the pride and glory you have bestowed upon my name."
Servivs sits, waiting for the debate of the Curia to begin once again
Senators, the time has come. I nominate that the Legio's I Apulia and II Latium b dispatched immediately to Pativium.
Dictator Dentatvs' personal messenger enters the Curia positioning himself to be seen by all senatores...
"Good senators, on behalf of our Dictator here are the plans for the years up and coming:
Legio III Campania, now under the command of Legatus Longvs, will be trained and commissioned for combat.
Legio's I and II are ready and rested. At their commanders will they are ordered to take the independent city of Patavium. After which, Edict 3.2 will be put into motion.
A diplomat will be sent to Epeiros and extend a ceasefire to Phyrros himself.
For now, the dictator wish's that Legatus Cotta would be so kind as to relay all commanders and chosen tribuni to the dictator's quarters personally. (OOC: Same way you did it last time Baen in your PM's that was very organized, much obliged if you could do that again.)"
Beggin your pardon, sir, but the Tribuni for the Legio's I and II are alreayd choson and commishoned; the names have been under the Legion's flags in the Curia for some days now. Is that what you mean?
Heres Blasio walks in...(OOC: Take into account its been 3 months ending the winter)
"Senators...our great Dictator Dentatvs, was finally put to a long rest. The God's will let him be in peace now in the after life. I must accept the title now of Dictator. I will stand for Roma and all of us here to continue the great Dentatvs' dream. Let us all mourn and keep this Republic together.
As for my selection of Heres, I pass the title on to my newly adopted son Manivs Cicero and my duties as Consul of the Legions. I will take on my fathers job as Consul of Finance. He is only a tribune true, but if our great Consul Asina trusted him with his life and would gladly trust my life to the Consul, then I hope you will all respect my decision. If anyone believes this is a improper choice, speak now for I am a man of the senate."
The new dictator seats himself in the feelings of depression looming over him...
A letter arrives from Legatus Cotta.
Forgive me for not being present on this most mournful day, as we gather to say goodbye to our gracious Dictator. He led us through tough times, and will always be remembered through the Republic.
However, it is also a day of blessing, in the rise of Dictator Blasio, and the appointment of the new Consul of the Legions. Despite his age, I agree that Cicero is a good choice for the Heres. I find his rank of Tribune disturbing however. I would like to promote the idea of advancing his career slightly; maybe it should be Legatus Cicero.
The letter carries on about boring stuff like supplies and things for the legion. No one is interested.
"For now, no other title is necessary, to us he is now Heres Cicero or Consul Cicero."
Tribunus Tiberius Claudius Marcellus enters the Curia having just come from the Pomoerium, the somber mood of the legislative body echoing that of the people on the streets of Roma. What is there to be said when someone of such import dies? Quietly, he retires to his favorite alcove in the library off to the side of the Curia and absent-mindedly examines a parchment.
Deciumus Cornelius Scipio stands up
The former dictator was a wise and efficent leader. One for all romans to look up too and strive to emulate. He led our glorious nation in retaking the land from the barbaric Epirotes, to crushing the rebellious slaves at Rheggon, then making the barbarians north afraid of Roman might once more. His leadership will be missed, hopefully we can take his initiative and use it wisely in making Rome even stronger!
Pvblivs stands up with a jerk.
"Cicero? Cicero?! With all due respect, Blasio, is this a joke? Not too long ago he was just a minor officer in my Legion, and now he's the heir? He may be your son by adoption, and a good man as I know from my own experience, but he's hardly qualified for the position. He's still just a tribunus..."
Pvblivs shakes his head.
"I wish to let it be known that I strongly disagree with this decision. With no offence meant towards Cicero, I think that this position is just too important and require qualifications that Cicero cannot meet up to."
"Very well Pvblivs, I am grateful for your opinion as i did ask for it."
(OOC: I must OOC this. Well I looked at it like this, Roka (Scipio) is about to be placed on the inactive list, and Baen (Cotta) is very young...and he seems to be okay with the choice. If you would like, we can vote on it without an emergency session. Just a simple 2 option poll for Cotta or Cicero. Idk, but my options here are very limited.)
I 2nd Publius. He is too unqualified. Even the Casse, a little known tribe, is recieving much notoriety for its stupid prince. Prince Henry I believe, every trade season gallic merchants come down telling of his stupidity and dumb remarks, making the casse monarch look foolish.
(little bit OOC, but I thought it would be funny).
I think a elder statesmen, would be fine. Not Cotta or Cicero, but someone with experiance at head of state to take the title for the time being. Maybe a elder governor. If noone is available I will concede and support your decision for cicero to be heres.
(OOC: maybe we can get rid of the office of faction leader/heres completely? Make it so we dont even recongize it, and its just a useless ingame thing. We are roleplaying here after all, and romans despised monarchys.)
Cicero walks into the Curia, composed. After a momentary absence from mourning, travelling, paperwork and miscellaneous tasks.
"Noble Dictator, I am humbled and grateful that you have announced me as your heir, but like a few senatores, I do not think I have the reputation to show that I deserve the rank. Though you have already bestowed it on me, I shall fulfill my tasks nevertheless. I think if Consul Asina were still alive, he would have been made heres and all would accept him, but I am not him, however I can prove that I can live up to the title. I have aided Consul Asina in his duties as a Consul before, I shall use what I have learned to complete my new tasks."
Cicero bows and addresses the rest of the Curia
"if you may excuse me, I have some tasks to finish, as appointed by the dictator"
When Cicero turns to go out the Curia, Avlvs rises
Well spoken, Cicero. A philosopher would say, self-awareness is the path to wisdom.
Also I go now, to join the Legion. Senator Lvcvllvs (OOC: no player, my representative) will represent me in the curia, till I return.
Avlvs lifts his hand to salute in the old roman fashion.
Extract from a letter, addressed to the Senate from Legatus Cotta.
...of dire attention. Our contact in Patavium was discovered recently; he escaped with his life, however, which is how I come across the information-personally from our man. He brings terrible news from the city. The enemy king has heard of our intentions, and has readied his forces for war. The supplies are being brought in, the men are being drawn in from around the kingdom. His forces are centering on protecting their capital of Patavium. It is with an increased sense of urgency that I order our forces to move at twice the pace, lest the enemy have too much time to prepare. However, I am still confident that with two glorious legions we can still dominate this kingdom, and the city...
Send legio 1 and 2 up there at once!Quote:
Originally Posted by Baen
(OOC: and make lots of screenshots for your stories.)
Blasio stands...
"Legio I and II will proceed to attack Patavium simultaneously. Legatus Cotta will be the overall commander. Legio III will be ready next season, Legatus Longvs be prepared to march north. Drill your men to the bone."
Surely your not going to insult Romans like this are you? To say that we need a whole 3 legions just to crush one measly tribe of barbarians is tantamount to saying the gauls are stronger then us! Even if they do call their brethren across the mountains 2 legions should be more then enough. 1 legionarre is worth 3 measly gauls!Quote:
Originally Posted by navarro951
That, and theirs also the logistical problem. Do the barbarians north even have the farming infrastructure in place to support so many soldiers? Do they even have official granarys at all? Even an uncompleted legio III has had to buy grain all the way from taras to support its belly.
(OOC theres a reason Caesar didnt keep his army in one place while in Gaul. The local communities just couldnt support so many soldiers at once)
Perhaps Legio III can be sent towards Massalia to begin the siege of that city? If necessary one of the other legions can be shifted to their support after Patavium is taken.
"Excuse me? But if you had any sense of things you wouldn't put words in my mouth fool! I didnt say Legio III would march for Patavium. Just to march north. That could mean Massalia, Mediolanium, or anywhere else for that matter. Mind your tongue!"
Yes Basileus.Quote:
Originally Posted by navarro951
*Scipio sits down. The rest of the senate realizing they have a new king*
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus carefully observes Tribunus Scipio from the corner of his eye and their glances meet. Much is said in that brief connection. Surely this new tension with the Dictator could not bear well for Legio III Campania. He considers saying something to calm everyone involved but thinks better of it. Tiberius would let this game play out a while longer.
Servivs Longvs stands to address the senators. He pauses, and prepares himself for what he is about to say.
"Noble dictator, please excuse my Tribvnvs he is a good man and means well. But perhaps a march north would not be best for the Legio III Campania. The Legio III Campania is not pleased with the idea of going north and we feel that the means do not justify the ends and continued conquest north would not be in Roma's favor. We have lost too much in the northern campaign, we do not want more Roman blood spilled at the hands of those naked barbarians. And for what? The lands in the north are hard, tough, cold, and the natives will do anything to keep us out.
This is why I propose, with the support of the Legio III Campania, that instead of sending us north, send us east to besiege and take Sparte. There, we will crush the weak and divided Greeks and establish shipping routes from the provinces that favor Roma. In Greece we shall find fertile soil as well as profitable shipping routes which expand all throughout the Mediterranean. By taking Greece we would tap into the wealth and culture of the east.
Consider the benefits of this, senators, provinces in Greece would be very profitable for Roma. Send me with the Legio III Campania to Greece."
Servivs sits down waiting for the debate to commence.
*Scipio sees Mercellus, and concluded that he needs to be less hostile. No need to get everyone against him. He listens intently to Servus, and decides to support it, for nothing bad can come of it and only good can be reaped*
*Scipio stands up*
I second this proposal. Though not out of cowardice. The Gauls are mighty foes, and worthy enemies on the battlefield. I will personally congratulate any of the senators here if they go to fight with such a foe, and will vote yes on a triumph if they are victorious.
The greeks in the east are divided, and weakend. Not only that, but they are openly hostile to our merchants. Our ships are booted out of their harbors only because trade between them and the rest of the easterners are deemed more important.
I reccomend changes to my commander's proposal. We setup friendler goverments in their cities. People willing to trade and communicate with Rome, people who will be our eyes and ears in places away from Rome. Let them govern themselves, but with Rome's friendly shield protecting them, and them giving us tribute.
(OOC client kings).
*Deciumus Cornelius Scipio takes his seat. The senate is silent, whether about to agree or shout down the proposal; Scipio does not know*
"Your changes are appropriate, Scipio, let them be added to the proposal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooks
Let it be known that i too do not want to go to Greece out of cowardice. I have fought in the north under Asina and i know the challenges each Roman faces when fighting in the north and i respect any that does. I just think that lives are being wasted with continuous conquest in the north while Greece remains open. I beseech you senators, send the Legio III to Greece.
Blasio remains seated, with a puzzled, but interested look on his face...
"Your plan is sound, and I carry no grudge against your Tribune let us pass that. But I think invading Greece is a near impossibility. We have just sent diplomats on a two year voyage all the way to Asia minor. We haven't the money for a navy to get our troops their. And besides the Hellons were all kind to us, Makedonia, the Koinon Hellenon, the Selecuids, and the small kingdom of Pontos all granted us trade rights and their map information of the world. It seems all that would be a waste if we just march our legions through new found friends.
Only Phyrros, who is my standing rival in this world, would I consider to attack. My mentor and father figure, our great Dictator Dentatvs, pushed the idea of peace with the Epirotes and focus on economic prosperity here in Roma. But, while I don't disagree with filling our coffers, I only spoke for Dentatvs but do not feel the same. I will listen to the debate on this topic, an emergency council may be needed, but I stand firm and will only cast my vote towards re-inviting the bloodshed of vile Epirote soldiers."
Remaining seated, Blasio opens the floor for discussion and nods toward Legatus Longvs.
Tiberius could not believe his ears, it was all happening so fast. Tiny beads of sweat broke out at his hairline and he downed a cup of water while he gathered his bearings. Now the Legatus had shown his hand along with Tribunus Scipio. Two senators, though commanders of a Legion, would not be enough to convince the Dicator and the other members of the Curia that Greece should be the new jewel that Roma set its eyes toward. This would require rhetoric and solidarity of an unparalleled level. They were confident that there were two more senatores who would side with them on this issue; but there would certainly be opposition, mainly from those in command of Legio I and II. Tiberius could only hope that the plans laid out during the discussion he had had at dinner with Scipio were in place.
He stood up, cleared his throat and began,
"Senatores, it is with great respect and humility that I address this legislative body as not only a seasoned senator, but also as a Tribunus and Second in Command of the Legio III Campania. As you well know, though a member of the Gens Claudia my family hails from Tarentum for the past three generations. While Latin, we have great ties to the Hellenes in culture, language, and many other ways of life. Allow me the honor of addressing the advantages of sending the Legio III Campania into Hellas in stead of journeying to the north.
"First and foremost, the Res Publica has two separate Legions already campaigning in that territory. While there is yet work to be done, the peoples of that land have not proven to be united enough to be a threat to us in recent times. Other than garrison duty or defense against an unprecedented well-coordinated invasion from a combined force of both Gallic tribes and possibly even their northern Germanic neighbors, there is nothing that would require a third Legio to be sent to the north. It is highly dubious that the uncultivated lands could even support several extra thousands of fighting men for any sustained period of time without depriving the citizens and the local inhabitants of the towns that we seek to bring into our fold. Surely that would not make them feel amicably towards us, their new masters?
"Additionally, allow me to speak of the pro-Romani attitudes of many of the Hellenes on the Occidental coast of Hellas. Having been raised in a Hellenic town until my family - well-connected merchants, mind you - aided the spy sent into Tarentum by the Senate several years ago, I am very well versed and still up-to-date in on these matters. Romani culture, goods, religion, and law are all exported to the Greek isles with each ship that reaches their ports, and I attest that those are in an ever-increasing demand. While our forces would undoubtedly be forced to fight some battles, there are many amongst the countryside who would aide us in our fight. Verily, once the local population centers are captured, it would take little coersion to supplant the Hellenic government with one that was decidedly pro-Roman.
"With these friendly governments joining our ranks, the more stubborn of the cities would be weakened considerably while our own coffers and legions were strengthened. The fertile lands of Hellas also provide us the benefit of being rather close together in the mountainous terrain. Once a city was captured, it would be less than a season's march to lay seige to the walls of the next. This geography would speed our total control of the region, which, once properly subjugated, would enrich the Res Publica tenfold. We would then have enough denarii and able-bodied men to take on Carthago full-on, as well as advance into Gaul, and have forces ready to defend against any incursions from Aegyptus who have their eyes set upon the Greek jewel as well."
Tiberius takes a moment to down another cup of water and continues,
"Senatores, the lands to the north of Italia are exceedingly vast, frozen wastelands inhabited by viscious savages and unpenetratable forests. Even if all three armies were sent north they would become separated and subject to ambush from any amount of roaming savages. Our men would most assuredly suffer unnecessary casualties from exposure during the long, harsh, and unforgiving winters as our supply lines would undoubtedly be constantly harassed and intercepted by the enemy. Is that the fate you would send the sons of the Res Publica to? I should hope not. There will be a time when the whole of Europa will fall under the rule of the Senate; but men of Roma, this is not yet that time.
"I thank you for your attention and implore you once more, let Legio I and II finish pacifying the lands south of the Alps and consolidate their holdings. They have bled much and are in much need of a well-deserved rest. Let them begin to raise families in these new territories and Romanize them. Legio III Campania is more than capable and ready and willing to head to Greece, with the permission of the Senate, of course, and bring greater glory, wealth, slaves, and fighting men into our armament!"
*Senator Scipio rises, obviosly knowing what the dictator was going to say. Perhaps he already knows what most people are going to say and has planned responses for them?*
Invading Greece is not a near impossibility. We shall 'borrow' what transports we need from our merchant class. Of course we will compensate them for it, but they should be happy about it! We are expanding their profits 10 fold, for the markets of Greece are more numerous then Italia.
The easterners gave us trade rights like they would infants candy. Us romans are not a seafaring culture, and they know that. There is barely any room in their harbors for the ships we do have! They get their olive oil and wine from other places.
Please senators, realize this opportunity! The Greeks and Macedonians are now as we speak engaged in a fierce war. The Hellens army will be experianced, but depleted. Legio 3 has complete confidence in itself for quick and decisive victorys. If you send the legio III to Greece, our coffers will refill, the slave markets will refill, our ships will travel farther then they have ever gone before. How long have we gone without a scraping the bottom of the barrel that is the treasury? How long have we went without greeks to tutor and educate our young sons of Rome? Too long I say.
*Scipio sets down abruptly.*
(OOC me and marcellus posted at the same time. Hate when that happens)
"Your telling me, and senators I would never doubt the might of a Roman legion, but you are telling me that the new Legio III which has not yet been tested in battle could easily, as you've put it, smash against the military strength and tactical genius that is the Spartan hoplite?"
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus stands again with an arm extended out towards Scipio.
"Honored members of the Senate, my fellow Tribunus and senator speaks the truth. Hellas is divided and ripe for conquest. Noble Dictator Blasio, your anymosity towards the Molossian is well-placed. As an ammendment to this proposal, I suggest that to deal with the Epirote menace, we allow one of the Legions in the north to harass and possibly even take the region of Dalmatia to draw Pyrrhus' attention off of our subversion in the south. There will not be many large battles to be fought against the Koinon Hellenon or the Makedonians. They are concerned with their own individual agendas rather than unite against us. This plan cannot fail.
"I have trained many years with a former commander of the armies of Taras. He is my aide de camp and an honest and capable man, true. I assure you that our legions are more mobile than any hoplite or even a phalanx, and the best way to annihilate them is to flank and surround them. Again I state that we will not fail."
"I am a man of the senators , of the republic, if this topic truly suits some of us,and others are against it, it may be time for an emergency council. Give me a bit of time to make this decision."
I admire the spartan hoplites. But its been decades, maybe even centurys before they were ever in sufficent numbers to actually be a winning force. Makedonia and Greece have been in a war for decades now, the polis in the south of greece will be lightly defended.Quote:
Originally Posted by navarro951
If Rome decides to lead another legio against the Epirotes, I will not agree or disagree. Its a sound plan, and the Dalmation pirates are really bad this time of year.
Senator Caivs stands, fury in his eyes.
What madness is this? Even after their plans to attack our allies in the south have been voted down, some members of this Senate insist upon proposing yet another folly. There are edicts passed by this Senate that are yet undone, but you begin push "daring" new plans before the ink is even dry.
The Celts and Gauls may not be united, but they are numerous. There are three major settlements yet to be taken by our legions in Cisalpine Gaul, something that makes the use of Legio III in the north a necessity. It is not cowardice, but prudence to say this and it is arrogance to say otherwise. We are Romans, YES, but not gods. As I have said before, the north is large, sending three legions there will cause no great difficulty for food stores, especially if we send Legio III to Massalia Caivs' voice rises and hardens as this Senate ordered be taken. There is business for us in the north, business that the Senate felt was more important than ill-conceived forays in the south or east.
And yet you would have us sail across the sea in boats we don't have and can't afford, to a land filled with the battle hardened sons of Megos Alexandros, and take the legendary city of Sparta with a legion of green untested soldiers. And then what? What will we do then surrounded by Greek armies and cut off from reinforcements and supplies in a land turned against us by our unprovoked hostility. Sirs your plan is madness without any help from my tongue. And this is without even mentioning the loss of trade and friendship our diplomats have just secured for us. Should that be tossed aside so lightly?
And finally, for those of you who spent too much time with your Greek tutors growing up, there are plenty of boy-lovers in the Greek colony of Massalia with which for you to make friends.
Senator Caivs Aemilia casts a meaningful glance at Senator Tiberius a small mocking smile playing at his lips.
I say that this proposal is self-apparent foolishness, let us discard it as such and speak no more of an attack on Hellas at present.
Senator Caivs resumes his seat
"And what if it does fail gentlemen. Say we do take Sparte, Corinth. And then what??? You think Makedon and Greece are just going to accept a peace then? NO! They will come down on us with their most elite troops and massacre us. Xerxes was stopped at Thermopylae, then they will fight with everything they've got to beat us as well. We are speaking so far ahead of ourselves it gives me a headache"
"As Scipio has said, the Spartans have not truly been a formidable force for quite some time, the sameQuote:
Originally Posted by navarro951
can be said for Greece as a whole. They stand a shattered nation of another time.
As you all know, i have fought the vicious barbarians in the north. It can be said that their ferocity can
rival that of the Spartan hoplite. I am confident that Marcellus' loyalty and wisdom and Scipio's fiery
passion will translate well to the battlefield. I am confident that we can lead the Legio III Campania to
victory against the Spartans. It is true, Roman might may be tested in the battle against the Spartans
but it is a battle we cannot lose.
Senators, the wealth of Greece is bleeding from their disunited land. Let us stop the bleeding with
Roman influence. Let us sail to Greece."
"Let us sail to Greece? Tell me what do you plan to sail on? Planks, logs, or are you willing to swim? We haven't the money for a standing navy. If it was a navy to simply leave the legion on the Greek territory, which would be insane, then sure. But we would have to keep a standing navy to pull the men out of their. It is too costly, and risky aside from what you believe. We've no idea the strength of their armies divided or not. And no naked, idiotic barbarian will ever amount to what the Spartans have accomplished in their time. Our legions have proven their worth, but we are yet to face an enemy as monstrous as the Greeks have faced. Yes they are divided, but in times of war they can come together as one formidable foe."
"Senator Caivs, plans to attack Carthage were foolish because they are united. They have the
wealth, the power, and the territory to defeat us while the Hellen do not. We would take Sparte
leaving the Koinon Hellenon with only two territories. From there, we could build our forces, retrain
and prepare to take Korinthos if we desire to. Makedonia is strong but will be to preoccupied with
fighting Epeiros and the remaining Koinon Hellenon that they will not be able to route us from Greece.
And how dare you insult senator Tiberius. His education has turned him into one of the best men i
have ever known."
Servivs stands there, furious at Caivs for the insult
OOC: ah i hate responding after someone has said something new while i was writing
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus and a handfull of senatores stand up and pound the desks in front of them with their fists repeatedly, accompanied by just as many repeated grunts of agreement as is the custom of parliamentary bodies. Various shouts of "Death to Greece!", "Eastward!", and "Legio III will succeed!" intersperse the commotion and jubilant concurence.
*Scipio rises calmly. Emphasizes his cool head and calmness. Next to Aemilia's fury he might appear more intelligent and coolheaded then he actually is*Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjolnir
Thats quite a arguement there but I respect it, and debate it one by one in order.he
The 3 settlements yet to be taken can be taken by Legio 1 and 2. The glory is all theirs. If needed, legio 3 can stay behind until they can be taken. I shouldve made this more clear. Pardon that.
The edict just failed for the attack on Carthrage, yet it wasnt because they were our allies. Dont let that fool you, it was because the north isnt taken yet, and that was in the past. The north gets closer and closer to being taken. Its also because we didnt have a extra legion on hand.
The land of Greece is not the land it was when Socrates, Homor, Pelicles, or when Thermoplye happened. The land is just as rich as it was back then, but its soldiers are mercenarys in the far east, its military traditions have been outdated, and the war with Makedonia have depleted the armies it does have.
And the question not what would we do when encountered by a superior force, but what would they do.
*Scipio takes his seat. A fellow senator behind him sais to him "Did you see his Aemilia's face?*
(OOC I know what you mean ;)
"Legatus Longus, Tribunus Scipio, thank you for your defense of my character. These hallowed halls have indeed been defiled with such a personal insult as the one made by Senator Mamercus. But I shall accept his disrespect with calm and refuse to acknowledge it further. Indeed, it is beneath those of the Gens Claudia to be dragged into public feuds like commoners. His arguments have been refuted by you, Scipio; and, should any doubt remain, let it be made clear that Senator Mamercus is but a pawn of those in league with Legatus Cotta. He and those like him are as wolves: bold in numbers, cautious by themselves, going whichever way the wind blows."
Quote:
Originally Posted by navarro951
As I said before, Ships from the merchant class. In case you never saw one before, they are perfect transports.
Legio III will capture a city within 2 seasons, if the transports get raided before that then we can gather another fleet of merchants or the remnants of the defeated fleet with the gold we take from the Hellenes. It will all pay for itself.
Yes, in Sparta's TIME. Not now, not since our great grandfathers lived. What have they acheived of note? Very few of their warriors are trained like they were of old.
Blasio shoots up and storms in anger...
"How dare you speak of Legatus Cotta in that way! He is brother of Roma and a brother to me! You are but a tribune, and have not proven yourself to even half of what Legatus Cotta has. You speak as if you have been through the bloody battles they have. Wolves! You disgust me!"
*Scipio shoots a look at Macellus. Macellus understands and gives a wink*Quote:
Originally Posted by navarro951
Please excuse Macelllus for that remark. He is...overly agressive sometimes. Something the Greeks shall come to fear, unless Aemilia and the dictator have their way with it.
(OOC his traits coincide with his last post
https://i190.photobucket.com/albums/...cellvs-266.jpg
"I do not feel I can forgive this remark...Legatus Cotta served in Taras, Rhegion, Bononia, Segesta, and will lead the attack on Patavium. He is our most proven commander at the moment. And Tribune Tiberius should learn to show respect where it is due regardless of political difference."
"For the time being, I feel you must forgive this remark or at least let it go. Let this not get sidetracked with useless
bickering for we are here to discuss the issue of attacking Greece."
I want to remind the senate that we are not exactly conquering Greece. But installing friendlier goverments. The people will rule themselves by people they know and trust. In the end we are helping the greeks out. No longer will they have to fear Makedonian retribution or a reconquest by the Epirotes. In the end peace and prosperity will reign over the sections of greece we help, and that is what we all want correct? Peace and Prosperity.
Caivs stands to speak again
Senator Marcellus, you criticize the passion of my words and yet refuse to respond to my arguments; a quite convenient way to dodge the truth of my statements. Is that a Greek trick perhaps? You say that I am only brave in numbers and go whichever way the winds blows and yet I only stand against the three of you; although I am sure others will speak in agreement with me when the rest of the Senate learns of your mad proposal. It is again convenient that you choose to bring this up when Legatus Cotta and my cousin are in the north with the legion and I only happened to be here to procure supplies, else you would be unopposed. Was that your plan?
Caivs turns
Senator Scipio, you say the edict to go south failed because the north had yet to be taken and that is in the past now; yet that is at the very least an ill-informed statement since we are no closer now to securing the north than we were 3 months ago. What has changed exactly? You say two legions can secure the north, I agree. However three legions would make the process go much faster and make doubly sure our victory. I say we should use our legions where the Senate voted to use them and not on some unauthorized foolishness.
As for Greece you have yet to answer any of my points, save one, and that with a bad assumption. Do you really think that the Greeks who went all the way to the Indus have backsliden so far as to no longer be a threat? Do you really believe that when faced with an outside threat they will not drop their petty bickering to face us with a united front? And even if they don't, do you think Macedonia would not see our invasion and weakening of Koinon Hellenon as the chance they've been waiting for to seize all of Hellas?
No, you have left much unanswered and continue on only on high unfounded rhetoric and ill-conceived dreams.
I said we are getting closer and closer to taking the northern cities. If we are not, then what are they doing up there? I shall disregard this, but maybe your tutor didnt teach you enough on the latin language.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjolnir
And how is my proposal to go liberate parts of Greece unauthorized? Exactly when im trying to authorize it?
Your right though that I didnt recongize all the points you made earlier. How dare you accuse me of trying to eliminate the cash flow we are receiving from trade with them, when I was the senator that proposed we send emmisarys to start the cash flow in the first place? And how stupid can you be if you do not consider that the very 2 cities we intend to capture from the time we land in Greece are the ones that are trading? The ports will be reopened very soon.
The Greeks as of now are not the greeks of old. They have no generals of great note and alot of their warrior class has went east to look for work in the Successor States. They are embroiled in a war with Makedonia, which by the way its important to note that Alexander was a Makedonian, not a Greek.
Their are plenty of boy lovers in both Greece and Massilia. Perhaps I will send you the best one to tutor you in comprehension. You need it.
Avlvs Aemilivs Mamervcs, who came back from the legion's camp together with his cousin and cotta, has been calmy listening to this debate , but now i was enough
Decimus Cornelius Scipio, DON'T YOU INSULT MY COUSIN, you miserable maggot. I divest you of my friendship. Shut up and listen AGAIN, to what you should know already. He sighed.
Senatores, I am no friend of the greeks at all, and would rather see them crushed sooner than later. But IT IS TOO EARLY FOR THAT. Did you all, who pledge for war, forget, that we just voted and accepted an Edict, which contains to send diplomates to Epeiros, and seek trade and peace, and now you come with war? Do you think the Epeirotes and Makedonians, who - other than our legions yet - already have conquered a gread Empire once? What, do we just fight everone at the same time now? Celts, Greeks, Carthaginians..? Come on, lets fight the Seleukids and the Ptolemaioi too. One more legion should do, right?
Senatores! War with Greece will be brought upon us soon enough. Should we take a Greek city like Massalia or even Syrakousai, not only the Carthaginians will march against us, but also your beloved Spartans. Don't rush with it! Lets finish the southern Celts, before taking the risk of getting slaughtered at many fronts.
Our legions are strong and well equipped. But even the greatest warrior needs to eat and espeacially be paid. 3 legions, as strong as our fellow Roman brothers may be, are just not enough to face all our neighbour's armies at once
"Well said Avlvs, on another note...I think some of you nay-sayers need to rethink the way you speak of our men who at this very moment march for war. Our legionaries are not cattle to be wasted and thrown from this front to that. On this Greek issue, as I said before...it is risky and some of you speak as if we can walk through Greek lands without a scratch. Know this, regardless of whether or not they are the old Greece, they will band together in times of desperation and they will fight with a ferocity we have not even seen fighting barbarians."
Hear! Hear! True are your words, the Barbarians may be brave, but we even can beat them, when they outnumber us, because their tactical skills are not too well. The greeks are equiped at least as good as us, and not only they could outnumber us too, if they worked together with the Epeirotes and Makedonians, they also know about tactics. Yes, we have beaten them. But remember at what cost! Here in Italy. Think of what they could do to us when we invade their homeland now.
Cicero enters the Curia after a private discussion with Dictator Blasio away, he appears calm.
most of the senators expect him to speak and voice an opinion, however Cicero remains silent.
Apparent that Cicero does not want to makes his opinions known now, the rest of the Curia carry on debating.
after a few moments of senators chattering with the neighbours, Cicero finally decides to voice his opinion.
"Firstly, I am unclear of where everybody desires our troops to be sent. It is obvious that a few support them going to Greece, while another few supports the taking of Massilia, however the targets of the rest are not known.
Secondly what we are discussing here is what is to happen after Patavium is taken, yes? If that is the case, we may have two more legions which are ready to campaign after that, would that not give us the ability to attack multiple weak targets, or a single united foe? and on the issue of Greece, which region do the senators who wish for an invasion towards there refer to? is it Peleponessos? is it Macedonia? Eprius? Aetolia? or somewhere further north? I see Legatus Servius is referring to Peleponessos, how about the rest? If we are to invade Greece, I would suggest we take Epirus (the region, not the kingdom) first; from my intelligence reports, they are rather weakly garrisoned, and are within a short sail from Italia."
"That said, it would seem the most clear option here is Epirus, though that may change anytime soon, since taking Patavium might re-ignite the war with the Gauls, or the Poeni may decide that our alliance, trade and treaties are no longer valid to them and force us to have no choice but to declare war on them."
before taking his seat, Cicero interrupted his actions
"Though I may support expanding into Greece, I do not wish to accomplish it by completely taking over their lands. If possible, we may annex a region or two and establish our culture there, to encourage cooperation rather than resistance; and only launch a full invasion when it is necessary, which is not sometime in the foreseeable future. Or eventual expansion there may continue taking the form of annexing the lands there slowly and more peacefully."
(OOC: of course by 'annexing' I refer to the way Massalia is supposed to be taken as according to edict 3.2; though FD might need to be used once we 'annex' the region to restore peace)
I have a reply for all at once.
It seems to me my opponenents, im not going to call them enemies, have 2 points in mind.
1)Too soon
2)Romans need not go to the slaughterhouse that is war.
All these are noble sentiments and I respect them entirely. Though I do not share them. Im more of a city type of person, get up and go I say, but that's just me. If the majority of the senate body demands that we wait, then wait we shall. For this is a senate body and a republic first and foremost, and I respect everyone's opinion and disagreements, no matter if its against mine.
The other point, that Roman soldiers are not aplenty and that we need to wait. For the Roman soldiers to go back to their farms and live with their family again. I have a radical idea. Bare with me now...we recruit our Italic Allies. Samnites, Campanians, Lucians, Mendolians, have them serve in our legion. If you want have the whole legion be Italian allies then thats fine by me, for most of you think this is a suicide mission. And who better to go on a suicide mission then people who thirst for war? People who have been excluded in our last battles, people who have to go elsewhere to practice their skill at arms, people who have to think of being bandits and pirates just to use their skills theyre fathers and grandfathers passed down from generation to generation?
Have units of legio III reinforce legio I and II, but replace whatever went with Samnites, who are equipped in the same manner and fight in the same way as us. This should satisfy Aemilia, who wants legio III to help the other legions, which they will. And Blasio along with Avlvs who dont want romans to die.
Avlvs, I would not have insulted your cousin so if he hadnt went on the offensive with me. It is he who threw the first stone, and I couldve responded much more hotly then I had. As for the friendship thing, I would ask you to reconsider, for you are a honorable and valuable senator. I shall take back my words against your cousin if it offends you so.
I have made my proposal to change the proposal without the consent and foreknowledge of my commander. I hope he agrees with me, its not my place to change the composition of the army. Also please note we do not with war with the Epirotes, though the invasion of southern greece will help greatly if we ever do decide to get those bastards back. For its southern greece we are proposing to invade.
(OOC have the legions take the last 3 settlements, then reinforce legio III with italic allies on the extra money we have from that)
*Scipio takes his seat, and looks around to see senators flabberghasted by the proposal to use the allies. How will samnites behave in Greece? Will they loot or pillage with abandon? Or maybe this is a good time to get rid of any potential rebels so close to home, for it wasnt too long ago they were marching with Phyrrus himself.*
(OOC Edit: I posted same time as Cicero.)
As said before Cicero. I do not wish to conquer the Greeks, for running foreign lands is expensive and not what we Romans have ever did outside Italia. Just replace their heads of state with friendlier ones. They are used to tyrants, and we shall not be tyrants from afar. Their own people will rule their own, even if they are not popular nothing will change.
"Decimvs Cornelivs Scipio" Avlvs calmly said. He repeated. "Decimvs Cornelivs Scipio. A noble name you have. The family of the Cornelii has served rome almost as well as us Aemilii, so we should not argue" Avlvs gave a quiet smile, well aware of the fact, that like the Aemilii also the Gens Cornelia envisioned themselves as the oldest and greatest Roman family. "Your thought is interesting, but yet there are points that must not be overseen.
1. Italian Allies are a well support in our armies, we should recruit them more often, I agree.
2. I disagree, that we should recruit a pure Italian-Legion. They should NEVER outnumber roman troops in a legion, or they may run over to the enemy. The last thing we need if we want to conquer Greece, is to send them 10'000 samnites, that gladly join them destroying us.
3. Even if they used to fight us, they are our allies now and are not to be wasted. When they attack us, ok, then we exterminate them, but as long as they serve us, there's no need to be cruel. If many men of our Italian Allies die in Greece or somewhere else, who pays tribute, carries for commerce with our merchants and till their fields? Their women?" Avlvs laughed. Or you, Scipio? He raised an eyebrow.
If we waste our own soldiers or our allies makes not much difference, it still would raise our enemies courage and moral, and instantly lowered the loyality of our allies, who of course would fear soon to be sent to death too.
A Cornelius - as a true Roman - surely knows the valour of our confederation - system. We cannot afford to shake it. Should we be invaded, it MUST be steadfast!"
Turning to the senators
"So I repeat, senatores, we have to proceed step by step. Let us conquer the southern Gallic cities, let us force the by this weakened Gauls to peace, and then decide what'd be best: IF we expanded our sphere of influence to Sicily, OR if we went to Iberia, OR if we subjugated the Greeks OR if we took the lands of the Illyrioi.
The safety and prosperity of the Roman people must be our ultimate ambition!"
Aemilivs looked around stony-faced and and waited a moment to bring the influence of his words to bear. Then he seated himself and whisepered something to another senator, who began to smile and nodded.
"Good senators of Rome! Listen to Avlvs words and mark them well, for they bear the hallmark of wisdom. Folly it would be to let Italian soldiers outnumber our own Romans, for they would fight us if they thought they could win. By sending them to Greece, we would only bolster the enemy's numbers!
But as for war in Greece, it has long been my opinion that we should follow Pyrrhos and kick his Molossan ass as soon as we have the chance. When Cisalpine Gaul and Massalia are secured, the time for it will be ripe. We will be able to afford enough ships for the operation by then, and we will have Legios freed up from their current mission in the north. But this can and should be debated later; lets all focus on the task at hand for now."
All good points you have indeed. But you should note that I said I would not mind a pure itallic army, not that I reccomend one. And the confederation is not secure as you might think. The samnites went to Phyros side as soon as he landed troops on our shores, and they will go again if another army lands a army on our shores. The only place where they can be secure, loyal troops to Rome is in foreign lands.
If many troops die in Greece, the trading will be carried on by their sons, and the farming carried on by the slaves we send back. Numbers are not a issue.
*his tone turning more somber, he turns his focus to the senator's cousin*
Aemilus, would you support sending legio III to greece AFTER the business in the north is finished?
Avlvs answers
The first part of what you said is contradictory, you say they fought with Phyrros - which is true - but you still consider them loyal enough to fight for us in foreign countries. So the enemy does not even have to send diplomats to bribe them, because we send them to the enemy as a present, so he can send them back as a part of his army.
Numbers ARE an issue, because in war its not the fathers but its the sons, that die!
Apart from that: Yes. If business IS finished in southern Gaul, and the borders are secure, then I would not mind an armed holiday in Greece. But if we go there, not only with one legion. If we invade, we do it properly.
"Blasio, there have been some misfortunes in Legio I's preparations for war - sabotage by spies, no doubt - which has delayed us while Legio II has marched on.* It is, however, my firm belief that they do not need our help to take Patavium. That's why I ask for permission to move west instead, and take it on me to secure Massalia instead."
*OOC: There seems to have been a misunderstanding since I in a PM asked Baen to move Legio I as well, but it would appear that he forgot about it or something. That's the real reason for Legio I's current inactivity. :shame:
(OOC: ARRGHH ya i know i was going to move it for you as Baen may not of seen that SOT, i did. Okay well were using force_diplomacy on Massalia...so I guess you could go their as a RP thing?)Quote:
Originally Posted by The Celtic Viking
*Scipio rises slowly, barely hearing Avlvs's speech.He remembers the comment he made earlier, insulting the Cornelius house. Scipio makes a note to hire the local boys to egg his villa*
The samnites want only one thing, their land back. They care nothing for foreign gold, or foreign interests. Away from our soil they are strangers and will fight just as well as our legionarres do.
On your other point: The proposal by Servus was not a invasion of the whole of Greece, such a thing would require much more then 1 legion. But merely taking southern greece. Which we firmly believe is possible. If you personally think we will need more, perhaps adding extra hastasti or skirmishers for garrison duty will be enough for you?
OOC: Oh, I didn't know that. Well, yeah, we could make it RP, something like "they will become our allies, but wish us for our presence ensure their safety: taadaa", or the more mafia-stylized "ally with is or else...". Yeah. If you read this before ending the turn, please move me towards Massalia then.Quote:
Originally Posted by navarro951
"What Scipio says here is true. I think that the objectives in going to Greece were severelyQuote:
Originally Posted by Mooks
misunderstood. The plan would be to sail to the Peloponnese, land, and take Sparte. There, we would
establish friendlier and more profitable shipping routes to Roma. I do not want to go to Greece for
greater personal glory or for conquest, i want to ensure better shipping and more wealth is reaching
Roma.
I would also not mind waiting to go to Sparte until things are finished in the north but i will not be in
approval for continued conquest in the north, when Greece could be so beneficial now."
Unlike Scipio, Avlvs very carefully listened to what his opponent said, and answers.
"Well, in my opinion a Legatvs should make an official proposal here in the curia, when it is the time to think about the Geeks. He should define exactly what his targets are, what regions and cities he intends to take and of course what Legions he wants to take with him, how strong these legions are, what garrison troops are needed, how many soldiers from our allies he intends to recruit and by what time he will have fulfilled the task.
Then I can say if I'm satisfied. I will not let you pin me down in this matter here, by already making a decision.
Turning to Longvs
Dear Legatvs Servivs Sempronivs Longvs, with all due respect, what you are proposing here is an invasion, and nothing else, no matter how few settlements you intend to take."
Turning to Memercvs, Longus speaks.
"Call it what you must, Memercvs. But as i said before, going to Greece would be be both beneficial to Roma and Greece. We would bring wealth to Roma while also uniting Greece under Roman rule. Both nations would be able to experience the diverse cultures and riches of each of our nations."
I am against incorporating Greece into the empire. Let them govern themselves for the time being, and over time even let them have their own hellen troops as guards,merely replace their heads of states, and extract a alliance. With the Might of rome guarding them the makedonians and Epirotes will no longer terrorize the Greek Polis. Of course the current tyrants will never support this, but I agree that the people will once they see the benefits. All of this will benefit Rome and Greece.
I agree with you Avlvs, I shall confide privately Longus to formulate a official proposal.
Having listened to the countering opinions of the Greek plan, Tiberius Claudius Marcellus stands slowly and paces about the floor of the Curia while he postures, dramatically showing off the thought process he had completed last night when he retired from the chambers. When enough of the private deliberation had quieted down, he began:
"Legatus Cotta and Legio I Apulia have been sabotaged by spies? How could this have happnened within our own sphere of influence? This brings to the forefront many of the questions so many of us have had in these past few months pertaining to the readiness and effectiveness of that command. A grumbling of support broke out amongst the senatores that this indeed was an issue that must be addressed. Tiberius waved his hand asking for silence. He continued, "Be that as it may, Heres Cicero was wise to remind the hotter heads, he markedly turned to face the Aemilii cousins and even gave a brief glance to the Dictator, "that contest our planned subversion of Greece towards a more open support of Roma, that this plan was not to take effect until after Patavium and the north were secured, as voted on and approved by this council.
"This proposed idea was simply, and purely, a desire to enlarge and enrich the Res Publica with all that Hellas has to offer. If those in league with the command of Legio I and II are troubled by such selfless desires because of greed or short sightedness, and wish to continue arguments against our grandiose plan, then please, continue. Allow the record to show that you stand in the way of greatness and destiny in order to better your own stations at the expense of the Res Publica and the people you represnt.
At that statement most of the Senate erupts into arguing amongst themselves. Clearly this is a hotbed issue. Tiberius takes it in and relishes every moment of seeing this discord, this disharmony amongst the various 'leaders' who seek nothing but glory and riches for themselves. He sips from a cup of water allowing his controlled chaos to continue. From somewhere in the back a voice rings out, "And what are your motives, Greek?" Tiberius looks up suddenly, his eyes darting to the faces of each member of the Senate to see who had uttered such an offense. The faces of the men were unrevealing and no one seemed to even be looking toward the direction the voice had come from. He needed to regain control, and regain it now. He placed his cup upon the table, clasped his hands behind his back and began to walk to floor.
"Such bold words from one who would hide in the shadows. If you've not the testicular fortitude to insult me to my face, then I suggest you find a differrent line of work. I hear told there is a shortage of pig farmers in Apulia, perhaps you would find comfort amongst your own kind there?"
There was much laughter yet no one came forward as the offending senator. Tiberius would extend his network of informants to catch the insect who did this and then destroy them when the time was right. Until then, there was still the issue of persuading the Senate to accept this foray into Greece.
"Noble Senatores, let us not be distracted by such childish outbursts, surely spurred on by those who contest this plan. As you all know, I am of the Gens Claudia, nobile Romans all. Though my particular branch of the family tree had resided in Tarentum for the past three generations there is no Greek blood in my veins. Though I am accustomed to and familiar with the culture, language, arts, and politics of Hellas, I and my family are Latins to the core. Any statement to the contrary is a lie. A filthy, unsupported lie. And if anyone here suggests or openly states that I or my family are of anything but Romani lineage, then they and their house shall answer to me. I expect no further deliberation on this matter.
"As my fellow Tribunus, my Legatus, and I myself have stated multiple times within this debate, this is not a conquest of Greece. The common people are of like mind that in Roma lies the future. It is simply their leadership in the various poli that need convincing. When they are toppled, the people shall rejoice and overthrow the last remnants of Greek leadership and support the Res Publica entirely. Some of this can surely be accomplished through diplomacy and diplomacy's lubrication: gold. Our Legio III Campania is simply there to assist those who would do our work for us, as well as to show the Greek peoples that Roma is sincere in its desire to have firm relations with them.
"The legion could be supported by various levies and auxilliary forces from the country side to augment our own troops, often fighting the battles themselves - a testament to their devotion to Roma and all that we embody. The fleets needed could indeed be supported by local merchants, and my family will be the first to offer ten such vessels to assist this endeavor. (ooc: use the command line to create one ship). Our first goal will be to help change the governments of the closest port towns, so that trade and resupply can be established immediately. As one who knows, the Greeks will not stand united against us. Each polis will attempt to consolidate its own holdings, and when faced with the threat of a powerful legion and the threat of rebellion of its own populace will crumble as a tower of unbaked bricks.
"Senatores, this plan cannot fail. The three commanders who have created this plan are the ones going to lead it and put their very lives on the line. There is much to gain through this course of action and little to lose. And for those who would twist my words and callously interpret them as having complete disregard of the soldiers we would lead, let me tell you that those who serve in our armies are volunteers. They seek out danger and battle purposely, and risk their lives for fortune and glory of their own volition. They know the risks but chose so accordingly. I ask you to not disregard the free-made decisions of our fellow citizens out of an unfounded hatred of those who would command them or out of a desire to obtain glory and riches for yourself. You, as their elected representatives owe them much more than that."
"My name is Mamercvs, Legatvs Longvs.
Tribunus Tiberius Claudius Marcellus, a nice speech you held. And i agree that Greece is rich, and that we could profit from it. But why Sparte? I don't understand, that respectable commanders like you, do not see this:
Sparte is not the richest town in Greece, but the one with the most redoubtable warriors, so our direct benefit would be minimal.
What concerns your indirect benefit, for example taking our culture there and trade..."
Avlvs almost shouted, but contained himself
"DO YOU.... do you really think, that if we took naught but Sparte - THE Sparte - the Greeks would just watch, and say: "Oh, the Romans are here, well, let's trade and make them rich." Not even the Gods could make that happen. They would gather and attack and attack again, the costs alone to defend the city would reach heaven, and we would not gain a single dirty Drachma out of Greece, but most likely even come to grief! I say, we may go to Greece if the time is right, yes! But when we're there, we have to take their land and their rich cities, like Athenai.
Fellow Senatores, we are Romans! We don't do things by half-measures!!! What say you?"
If we didnt take sparta then we would be in between greek armies previosly fighting the Makedonians, and greek levys from sparta. In short, we would be sandwiched.
The official proposal is being worked at currently. All questions will be answered, all details examined, the costs ledged in the ledger, the speculations speculated, and the plans be planned.
Did you not listen to me AGAIN? Avlvs smiled I said take ALL of Greece, which includes Sparte.
"Tiberivs, Legatvs Cotta has no blame in this. I fully take the blame for allowing agents to delay me and my army, so though your critique is just, it should be aimed at me, not him: and I take it, for I know I deserve it. My fullest apology to Blasio, and the whole Senate, for failing to stop this misfortune. Rest assured though that this problem has been taken care of: the spies have all been cought, and they were prudently punished for their crimes.
However, I am quite confused and disgusted by the rest of your speech. I am not against an invasion of Greece: in fact, I think I have made it quite clear here that I for a very long time have wanted one! While I accept blame for that which I am responsible of, I will not have you badmouth me for something I do not stand for! Your rhetoric is shameful, and far below that which should be the standard in these halls. Juno's cunt! Have you no honour? Show some respect! Your actions here is a disgrace for this great Senate you so unworthily call yourself a part of!" As he said that, a lot of clamour began, and loud agreements was heard from many a senator.
"Legatus Regvlvs, I understand. Men who are rats, vile rats, such as the spies you caught are an inconvenience we military men must deal with.
On this continued proposal for taking Greece, I stand firm, it cannot be allowed. So many of you who opposed my idea of invading Sicilia, now want to invade Greece. The hypocrisy of some of you makes me laugh. There was so much more to gain from Sicilia as it is closer, and the jewel of the Mediterranean trade routes. But no, many of you shot the edict down. And as a good leader, Dentatvs allowed a fair and balanced vote instead of overriding you younger senators.
If an invasion is what you want, I pray for the wives and children whom you leave widowed and orphaned on some unjust cause that you all wish to put into motion only for personal glory. You speak for yourselves not Rome."
"Tell me dictator what was just about attacking Sicilia. We would betray a very strong relationship with Carthage that need not have been broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by navarro951
You talk about the jewel of the Mediterranean trade routes. Greece will give us the same jewels PLUS the wealth and culture of the east.
It has been made clear that sending the Legio III Campania to Greece would be extremely beneficial for Roma AND Greece. How do you not see it?"
Servivs sits, adrenaline pumping from this poke at the Dictator
You fail to note, dicatator, that Greece wont be nearly as fortified as Sicily. The City of Syracuse and the Mammertimes are not easy enemies, they have been fighting eachother for years and unlike Greece, have not a reduced military. They will stay behind their walls also. The Poeni also have a very strong navy, and the war with them will take years! (29 years in fact OOC)
You speak of Rome's maidens and children. Perhaps you should look in the mirror before you judge so blindly.
"Just? How about the Carthaginians harassing Messana. Their forces constantly scouting Rhegion for starters. When has Greece ever imposed their forces near our border. When has Makedonia treated us as a foe. Carthage's alliance with us is as strong as an ant is to my foot. You know full well when that alliance was made it was made on rocky terms that stand unfirm today."