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I just want to pop in with the following post:
My PC is undergoing repairs at the moment and i'm still doing exams, I'm not going to get it back until I'm finished. It just distracts me. :)
A small question to Kataphraktoi: Could you please send me an e-mail with the subject I will be researching? I have been waiting for some time now and I would like to get started with researching. :)
See you all around. I will pop in on IRC when exams are done.
Just have one thing that I'd like to say. Since I'm pretty decent at drawing (Though not clearly as good as Wraithdt and the other guys) I could if you want draw concept art sketches for my own factions so that you have less work to do... I've drawn sketches of two types of Armenian soldiers so far...
i saw yesterday at my local museum new drawings with all the wariors who passed into Romania from crusader knights on their way to Jerusalem to fanatical turks.could i reasearch something about that?and what do you use for drawing ?and do you model 3 d units with 3 d modeling programs?i have 2 3 d modeling programs and i know that you must be good to make a decent unit...i still have problem modeling the sword.
:2thumbsup:
Thematikoi Hoplitai
https://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?...oplitaifm0.jpg
The thematic infantry in this time period is in dire straits. Deprived of sustenance and their pay, they have been allowed to decay. However, while being ignored, these infantrymen have kept themselves busy on their lands as farmers. Their physique is maintained through hunting and hard labour. They carry a spear, shield and sword as basic equipment. IN fact, they are lucky if they have even these three together.
https://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?...toxotaiwe9.jpg
The Skoutatoi in the top left corner represents the majority of the heavy infantry of Byzantium. Leather/padded corselets and leather/felt caps are commonly used as defensive panoply. For weapons they carry a kontos (4-4.5metres though not portrayed in the drawing), a spatha and a kite-shaped shield.
The Skoutatoi at the bottom represents the heavy infantry that ideally equipped according to the sources. He wears a Klibanion of banded lamellar with pteruges and a lamellar plates covering his upper arm. For his limbs he wears the common splinted type. His helmet is a simply construction with a mail aventail hood attached to it.
THe archer iin the top right corner represents purposefully trained and recruited archers. Again, represented ideally if the equipment is available. He wears padded armour and is equipped with a composite bow, quiver, spatha, handaxe and a small shield. His helmet is of leather construction with padded aventail.
https://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?...hraktoixs7.jpg
Please don't take this as a concept for a unit in MTR:AOA, it is just for fun.
What if Byzantium never declined after 1071? Could they have produced Kataphraktoi influenced by western and eastern influences in the 1350s?
WHo knows. Its just for fun :2thumbsup:
Lol, i have no idea, cos none of our skinners, modellers talk here often, they are busy with their own projectsQuote:
saw yesterday at my local museum new drawings with all the wariors who passed into Romania from crusader knights on their way to Jerusalem to fanatical turks.could i reasearch something about that?and what do you use for drawing ?and do you model 3 d units with 3 d modeling programs?i have 2 3 d modeling programs and i know that you must be good to make a decent unit...i still have problem modeling the sword.
Those imaginary Kataphraktoi look sweet!
:2thumbsup:
I those kind of units did exist, but they were not called Kataphraktoi(talking about 1400 period)
Did they? Well in that case they propably were foreign mercenaries, as with nearly all the effective units in the Byzantine army during the middle-ages...
Also just thought I'd post it here... here is a WIP list of units for the Fatimid Caliphate... Would be grateful for any help with the names, as said in the research template the names should preferably be in the faction's native tongue... and I don't speak Arabic... Not necessary for the agents though I think.
Armenian Bowmen
Armenian Cavalry
Saharan Cavalry
Daylamite Infantry
Daylamite Caliphal Guards
Sudani (Black African Infantry)
Nubian Longbowmen
Abyssinian Guarsds (Palace troops)
Hawwallah Labour Corps (Rabble like infantry with sapping ability)
Jund Misr (Cairo Militia)
Ghulams (Palace troops)
Ahdath Urban Militia (Light, Heavy and Missile types)
Naffatun (Fire corps)
(Urbanized) Arab Faris
Arab Tribesmen
Arabian Infantry
Bedouin horsemen
Bedouin Camel Warriors
Saharan (Berber) Cavalry (Could be called Tuareg since they were effectively their precursors)
Berber Tribesmen
Ismaili missionary (Heretic priest)
Emissary
Spy
Assassin (perhaps hashishin, because the Fatimids had close ties with them)
I wouldn't call them Cataphracts... They were basically knights, many being foreigners, but still I can remember from somewhere "Greek Knights". Oh well nevermind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Randarkmaan
O btw have you seen the recent screenies. Mounted cannons on elephants! :inquisitive: http://www.totalwar.org.pl/gallery/aa.jpg
@Randarkmaan: Just PM me the names and Ill get them translated, It might take some time because I am just starting school again :shame: .
Same with me, painful aint it? I am trying to take it seriously so I will mainly get work done in the weekends... BTW I sent you a PMQuote:
It might take some time because I am just starting school again
great work fella's, may i ask a couple of questions:
1) it appear that you have removed America (good decision) in order to allow greater faction variety in eurasia, if you do get 30 factions to play with how far will you extend the game eastwards? it would be cool to have some of the more notable eastern empires/kingdoms.
2) RTW:BI apparently introduced some sophistication to the religious mechanics that allowed modders to simulate religious schisms, how sophisticated do you believe you can be with making the shia faction/s display as more than just heretics? will you consider a reformation event in the 15th century.
3) some RTW modders managed to create a four season year from the standard two seasons, given how unpopular the M2:TW time mechanics have proved with fans do you intend to implement somethings similar to a fixed multi season year for time passing?
regards
PGtips
As per request, I have made you guys a forum at www.medievaltw.com.
1) depends on province limit, and so far, the province limit has meant we can't really expanded that much east.Quote:
1) it appear that you have removed America (good decision) in order to allow greater faction variety in eurasia, if you do get 30 factions to play with how far will you extend the game eastwards? it would be cool to have some of the more notable eastern empires/kingdoms.
2) RTW:BI apparently introduced some sophistication to the religious mechanics that allowed modders to simulate religious schisms, how sophisticated do you believe you can be with making the shia faction/s display as more than just heretics? will you consider a reformation event in the 15th century.
3) some RTW modders managed to create a four season year from the standard two seasons, given how unpopular the M2:TW time mechanics have proved with fans do you intend to implement somethings similar to a fixed multi season year for time passing?
2) well, it seems the hardcode won't allow a distinct SHia religious identity so we have to subsume it under heretics, however, there will be a distinct Shia tech tree for Shia factions like the Egyptians early on with an option for turning to Sunni Islam. There are implications for this but I'd rather not say now. Its not because of any secrets, but rather, its just that we haven't planned that much on this issue as yet.
3) Most likely, yes.
many thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, if i may distract you just a moment more:Quote:
Originally Posted by kataphraktoi
1) what are the province limits? are they like the faction limits in that you hope for 30 but plan for 21?
2) is there any plan to allow for certain western euro nations and england to break away in a reformation event?
3) is there any preference at this stage for a two season or four season year?
regards
PG tips
1) 199 plus seaQuote:
1) what are the province limits? are they like the faction limits in that you hope for 30 but plan for 21?
2) is there any plan to allow for certain western euro nations and england to break away in a reformation event?
3) is there any preference at this stage for a two season or four season year?
2) mod only goes up to 1453 and maybe 1492
3) we haven't thought about it, the 4 season year is my personal preference.
i thought the province limit turned out to be higher
apparently they confused 255 with province limit, it turns out 255 is the model limit for units, not provinces.
Hi guys, good news, we have our own dev forum at www.twcenter.net !!!
But now the question is this....what about the password?
PM me.
Hello everyone!
Great concept arts! If any of you are nearly goos to 3d moddeling as making that concept art, than this mod is going to kick ass!
Anyway, I will be lurking here from time to time ;)
Pls can i play with some faction,when the game is released?
Lol, I forgot to thank you Duke John for ur pics :2thumbsup: They look great!!Quote:
I was browsing through my old M:TW modding files and came across some work I made for a mod. Perhaps it is usefull for you, mostly 15th century though. (the greens and purples are because of M:TWs faction colouring)
I suppose you're already in a modding project? :embarassed:
Great work! :2thumbsup:
The mod will become amazing with so many ambitious and hard-working people behind it. All these ideas and proposals, incredible. I am thinking about becoming a researcher as well... but it seems you have enough, haven't you?! Otherwise I could do some research about the HRE e.g. Let me know when you need someone for something like that, i am a only a student but i am massivly interested in medieval history. :book:
Specify which faction you want to research for.Quote:
Great work!
The mod will become amazing with so many ambitious and hard-working people behind it. All these ideas and proposals, incredible. I am thinking about becoming a researcher as well... but it seems you have enough, haven't you?! Otherwise I could do some research about the HRE e.g. Let me know when you need someone for something like that, i am a only a student but i am massivly interested in medieval history.
If you want to research for HRE, PM cutepuppy and SabreHRE.
Attention all members, latest version of research template and important accompanying notes for them. Its a must read!!
Will be posting a partial unit list for the Byzantines on the developer's forum. :2thumbsup:
Welcome to the Team!Quote:
Originally Posted by McFloit
Kataphraktoi, a question. As a military researcher for HRE i've decided to limit the "special" unique units of HRE for early and high to 2 maybe 3. Need to know your attitude about that. The reason for this huge reduction, is the fact that, for example i don't recognise some units(such as alledged Thurngian archers), as special units. Some regions were famed of their military. Franconia was known for her knights, fine, but that doesn't give her a special Franconian Knights Unit. So would'ya think about it?
My opinion is that you should identify as many units as possible, but not because of implementing every single unit, but rather to give us the flexibility and choice to pick and choose which ones are appropiate when the time comes for developing the unit lists. I agree, if a region is famed for certain units, I don't think there should be a unit named after the region unless there is a strong historical basis which names them as "Franconian Knights unit".Quote:
Kataphraktoi, a question. As a military researcher for HRE i've decided to limit the "special" unique units of HRE for early and high to 2 maybe 3. Need to know your attitude about that. The reason for this huge reduction, is the fact that, for example i don't recognise some units(such as alledged Thurngian archers), as special units. Some regions were famed of their military. Franconia was known for her knights, fine, but that doesn't give her a special Franconian Knights Unit. So would'ya think about it?
Moreover, we may script advantages for certain regions or something like that.
SabreHRE do u have the password for TWC?
Hi there to all. How's work progressing? Only a couple of months and a new horizon will rise.
Oh, and check this. I don't know what I did to distress CA and give us this :p
http://pc.ign.com/articles/731/731089p1.html
Anyway, there timeline starts later, as such some units they included I've not found yet, but I'll check with my professor when lessons start again.
And so it seems they are keeping the eras, but in another way, so I'm very curious. They start with Princes, then they have Tsars (unless they have already a Tsar included from the start, and Prince Vladimir is his son, the son from Vsevolod as mentioned and as history tells us).
Успеха!
kataphraktoi yes i do have an account and password for TWC why do you ask?
ohh... I just seen the thread on TWC. No i haven't got the password yet.
Why is there no edit option? :laugh4:
Hello, your Turkish researcher has returned from vacation. Can somebody give me a link to the discussion forum of this mod? Or are we continuing from here? :juggle2:
Um - The 'close ties' the Fatimids had with the Hashishin were that the Hashishin spent their time killing off the Egyptian noteables (I think Shahanshah's death was attributed to the Hashishin).
The Hashishin were a Nizari cult (from the older brother of Caliph Ahmad al-Musta'li, who was deposed in favour of the latter). An-Nizar rebelled and was defeated, Hassan i-Sabah (I think) fled to Iran and began mustering armies, murdering Sunnites and Shi'ites and spreading Nizarism.
Hmm... The Hashishin were Ismaili shia-muslims just as the Fatimids and as far as I know most of their murders where carried out agaisnt the Abbasids of Baghdad...
However I don't know that much about them, so you're probably right...
Oh, and I said "perhaps"
The Hashishin were Nizaris, the Fatimids weren't - the Nizaris killed both al-Afdal Shahanshah, after whose death the Egyptian government collapsed and the last 'real' Caliph nine years later. Yes, most of their murders were against Sunnites, primarily due to geographical location.
Yes, I know you said 'perhaps' but I was just clarifying. I've done a lot of research on this for 12th Century Glory (in the sig.).
MTR members please make ur opinions heard at the twcenter dev forums ..thannks.
don't they need a password?Quote:
Originally Posted by kataphraktoi
btw, do you have researchers for France? I think I can spent a bit more of my free time on research.
:2thumbsup: Check ur PM cutepuppy
sure :2thumbsup:Quote:
btw, do you have researchers for France? I think I can spent a bit more of my free time on research.
how about including the teutonic order, knights hospitaler, and persia ( khwarezm, ilkhans, timurids ) as independant factions.
Not too sure about Teutonic Orders and Knights Hospitallers, not becayse we don't want it, but beca\use we're trying to figure out how to integrate them!!Quote:
how about including the teutonic order, knights hospitaler, and persia ( khwarezm, ilkhans, timurids ) as independant factions.
As for Khwarezmians, Ilkhanids, Timurids, they will be scripted spawns. Ilkhanids and Timurids will be treated as internal conflicts within the Mongol faction which was true...
https://img366.imageshack.us/img366/...iarchonly7.jpg
Basilikos Tagmatikoi Hippeis Senior officer :2thumbsup:
Its a mace in his hand, but I guess he's pretending its a make believe mace :laugh4:
I think venice is superfluous as a faction. perhaps you can reconsider venice as a faction.
venice was economically powerful but not very aggressive militarily aside from providing ships for crusaders.
if anything , venice and the papal states should be scripted events, much like the senate gave missions.
if there is a 'horde' style of faction then the teutonic order and knights hospitaler should be like this.
for example the knights hospitaler started out in jerusalem moved to cyprus then rhodes then malta. don't forget they were the most active against the mamlukes then the ottomans in the mediterranean. they even fought against timur.
The teutonic order for its part started in the holy land then moved to hungary and after to prussia where they warred independantly of the HRE against Poland, Lithuania, and Novgorod.
Persia would help balance out power in the middle east. After Genghis Khan destroyed Khwarezm the khwarezmians were a free mercenary company employed by the muslim states in the near east (another ' horde ' faction).
Anyhow please consider. neglected areas of the map are scandinavia, eastern europe and the middle east. italy and iberia seem to be overrepresented.
Could someone check out the Turkish faction thread at the main developer forum? :book:
I have a good background on Ottoman history, but the Turks here are Seljuk Turks am I right? If not, I would like to contribute to this mod with my knowledge on the Ottomans.
As we couldn't put in two seperate Seljuk and Ottoman Empires, we have a single "Turkish Sultanate". Ottoman units come in after 1320, but we have both Seljuk and Ottoman units.Quote:
Originally Posted by Denizar
As for the help, there really is a high number of people offering help. While this is a really good thing, the research gets extremely difficult to manage when a lot of people are doing the samething. Besides the research is almost finished.
I will post the results here, so that everybody can offer their thoughts. The findings are totally open to suggestions.
They're no neglected they'll be represented by independent factions with their own unique units. People just don't understand, we have faction limits, unit limits and province limits. We can't just add anything that we'd like to.Quote:
Anyhow please consider. neglected areas of the map are scandinavia, eastern europe and the middle east. italy and iberia seem to be overrepresented.
Please specifiy how and why Italy and Iberia are overrepresented?
And Venice will be retained as they are no maritime empires in our faction list except them.
Cebei is responsible for the Turkish faction, all Turanian (:D) matters are to be referred to him. I trust him in all matters.
A few more concepts...
Mongol Faction Leader, Heir and Tuq Standard.
https://img164.imageshack.us/img164/...on01ez0.th.jpg
Mongol Khan.
https://img181.imageshack.us/img181/...on03ax7.th.jpg
Just an idea.
https://img177.imageshack.us/img177/...nskyjq7.th.jpg
........Orda
Excitement overload....gone to take medicine ^^
And how to enter without password?:help:Quote:
Originally Posted by kataphraktoi
Not at all. The Ilkhanids were not an internal conflict of the Golden Horde, they were simply the khanate formed by Hulegu's conquests, while the Golden Horde was an extension of the Ulus of Jochi. The Timurids were not even really mongols, nor did he conquer mongols. The Ilkhanate had already fallen into dissary and the local people had regained their sovernity. I really dont see how either the Ilkhanate or Timurids are internal conflicts in the Mongol faction, with special emphasis on the Timurids.Quote:
Ilkhanids and Timurids will be treated as internal conflicts within the Mongol faction which was true...
I said internal conflicts within the Mongol faction, not the Golden Horde. The Ilkanids was a khanate within the Mongol faction, we will script an internal conflict between the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanate within the Mongol Faction. Remember, there is no Golden Horde faction, it is the Mongol Faction which includes the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanids.Quote:
Not at all. The Ilkhanids were not an internal conflict of the Golden Horde, they were simply the khanate formed by Hulegu's conquests, while the Golden Horde was an extension of the Ulus of Jochi. The Timurids were not even really mongols, nor did he conquer mongols. The Ilkhanate had already fallen into dissary and the local people had regained their sovernity. I really dont see how either the Ilkhanate or Timurids are internal conflicts in the Mongol faction, with special emphasis on the Timurids.
The Timurids were from the Barlas Mongol tribe which were heavily Turkicised and the fact the Timur used the Chagatai Mongols and fought the Golden Horde Khanate. Timur claimed himself as a successor of Chingis Khan and sought to emulate this by attempting to invade CHina but died on the way to invading Ming China. Timur's machinations were within the theoretical polity of the Mongol Empire. His actions brought the weakness of the Chagatai Khanate and the theoretical polity of the Mongol Empire to its fruition and hence the internal conflict.
kataphractoi i did not mean to offend.
i appreciate the fact that i can voice my opinion.
here are some nifty maps
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1100.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1200.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1300.htm
in 1100 there are 8 russian states of which only 1 will be included in the game.
in 1200 there are 3 scandinavian states pomerania and pomerelia are independant duchies, only denmark is included as a faction.
in 1400 the teutonic knights have large territories in the baltic, they were involved in most of the conflicts against russia, poland, and the heathen balts, not the HRE.
you can see that the papla states and venice have not expanded much from 1100 to 1400, the venetians and papacy should in my opinion be like the senate missions in rome tw, this reflects what happened during the 6th crusade and so forth.
the spanish reconquista was the most important conflict in iberia during the period, 2 factions are necessary to reflect this the moors and castile-leon.
conversely alexander nevsky's novgorod fought the swedes, danes and teutonic knights. of which only denmark is included as a faction.
there are a multitude of independant states in the middle east
Emerging factions are not playable factions, so we only have one unplayable faction in the Mongols.
Venice represents a very unique faction in that it is maritime empire compared to other factions. We want this uniqueness. IN fact, some province boundaries on our map takes Venice into consideration by allowing small enclaves for Venice to conquer and hold and try its luck in ruling a rich maritime empire.
And Papal State?Quote:
Originally Posted by kataphraktoi
How many times has the question been posed, in the Org forums, not to mention anywhere else; "Could the Mongols have conquered Europe?"
Then CA choose to release two games, both covering the same period and in both games the Mongols are non playable. How lame is that?
......Orda
Hey, I'm an avid scholar of history, as well as an avid player of the TW series. I have played the realism mods and was impressed (very much so), so I decided I wanted to be a historical advisor to the M2TR team. I am Scottish and study medieval, ancient, and imperial forms of war, as well as weapons and armor, unique to time periods, eras, nations, and states.
I also study Scottish history and warfare, as well as Byzantine (my two medieval nations I put a lot of attention to), which are both elusive on information about their warfare, which leads to a lot of misconceptions in games (like M2TW making the Scots like Braveheart's bunch of morons).
So mainly, this is an application to work on the mod and be an advisor.
So yes, I did copy paste that, but I wanted to repost, exactly in those terms so there'd be no confusion.
In short, I mainly want to help advise on the Scottish and British/Irish civilizations, as well as the Byzantines. I do have a hoard of knowledge, but since other historians here might be more concentrated in that area, I'd like to help on the lesser known and explored civilizations.
My msn:beepersandbopers@hotmail.com
My email: beepersandbopers@yahoo.com
Thanks,
Mac
Well that just seems odd. By the time the Ilkhanate was established there really was no "mongol faction". Ogodei would excert some control over his fellows, but certainly after him the mongol Empire would be divided into seperate Khanates that were only similiar in culture. I really dont see how these are internal conflicts. The wars between the Horde and Ilkhanate were wars between two fully seperate entities that were in no way two parts of the same body.Quote:
I said internal conflicts within the Mongol faction, not the Golden Horde. The Ilkanids was a khanate within the Mongol faction, we will script an internal conflict between the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanate within the Mongol Faction. Remember, there is no Golden Horde faction, it is the Mongol Faction which includes the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanids.
Temur had very little Mongol roots. So little that he had to use a puppet Chagatai ruler during his reign because due to his descent he could never be a khan. He fought the Golden Horde yes, but I dont understand how that makes him a mongol? His armies which were largely of sedintary peoples conquered Persia, and made short work of all the middle eastern nations. He only fought the Golden Horde because he was invaded by them first. He had supported Tecumesh to fight the Khan of the White Horde, Tecumesh was too succesful reunited the entire golden horde. With the Ulus of Jochi united he would then raid Temur's lands, because well frankly he had nowhere else to go.Quote:
The Timurids were from the Barlas Mongol tribe which were heavily Turkicised and the fact the Timur used the Chagatai Mongols and fought the Golden Horde Khanate.
So yes he was a native of the Chatagatay Ulus, however he was not a Chatagay and he fought the Horde, but only because he had an ambitious neighbor. None of these things make him a mongol, or his empire a mongol one.
Claimed himself Timur Gurgan, son in law of the Khan, because one of his wife's Genghisid descent was the closest he could get to any tie with Genghis. He did make his way to China however that is after there was nowhere else to go. The relativly poor lands of Europe were simply unacceptable as conquests for a man who had defeated Bayezid, Tecumesh, and all the other indepedent rulers of the mideast.Quote:
Timur claimed himself as a successor of Chingis Khan and sought to emulate this by attempting to invade CHina but died on the way to invading Ming China.
Regardless, emulating yourself after a powerful leader still does not make this an internal conflict.
The Khanate was already split in two with both sides extremely hostile towards eachother at the time of Temur's birth. His actions instead was a movement that nearly reunited the former Mongol Empire, however this time with an entirely different ruling elite.Quote:
His actions brought the weakness of the Chagatai Khanate
I still dont understand. He was not a Mongol, his armies weren't mongols, and he fought mainly persians who had Persian leaders with slight mongol ancestory. The Ilkhanate, Chatagay Khanate, Goldern Horde, and Yuan Dynasty were all alreayd fallen before Temur, I fail to see how he can be classified as part of them.Quote:
and the theoretical polity of the Mongol Empire to its fruition and hence the internal conflict.
Read this,
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=68590
I find it hard to explain why Temur was not an internal conflict, because well he simply wasnt. Perhaps my narrative on him will help explain the situation better.
Hence my comment that the Mongol faction was a theoretical polity eventually torn apart by real political infighting.Quote:
Well that just seems odd. By the time the Ilkhanate was established there really was no "mongol faction". Ogodei would excert some control over his fellows, but certainly after him the mongol Empire would be divided into seperate Khanates that were only similiar in culture. I really dont see how these are internal conflicts. The wars between the Horde and Ilkhanate were wars between two fully seperate entities that were in no way two parts of the same body.
Being a Barlas Mongol does not constitute a Mongol albeit a heavily Turkicised one? But perhaps I didn't clarify it well enough. I see Timur's wars not as a civil war, but as an internal conflict first inside the Chagatai Khanate and which later spread into a conflict with another Mongol state as an external conflict.Quote:
Temur had very little Mongol roots. So little that he had to use a puppet Chagatai ruler during his reign because due to his descent he could never be a khan. He fought the Golden Horde yes, but I dont understand how that makes him a mongol? His armies which were largely of sedintary peoples conquered Persia, and made short work of all the middle eastern nations. He only fought the Golden Horde because he was invaded by them first. He had supported Tecumesh to fight the Khan of the White Horde, Tecumesh was too succesful reunited the entire golden horde. With the Ulus of Jochi united he would then raid Temur's lands, because well frankly he had nowhere else to go.
So yes he was a native of the Chatagatay Ulus, however he was not a Chatagay and he fought the Horde, but only because he had an ambitious neighbor. None of these things make him a mongol, or his empire a mongol one.
As for the Ilkhanids and GH, I see it differently than Timur's wars.
\Quote:
Claimed himself Timur Gurgan, son in law of the Khan, because one of his wife's Genghisid descent was the closest he could get to any tie with Genghis. He did make his way to China however that is after there was nowhere else to go. The relativly poor lands of Europe were simply unacceptable as conquests for a man who had defeated Bayezid, Tecumesh, and all the other indepedent rulers of the mideast.
Regardless, emulating yourself after a powerful leader still does not make this an internal conflict.
My fault for clarifying it as an internal (treasonous) conflict within the Chagatai Khanate
In practical terms I agree, but in ideological terms Timur saw it differently.Quote:
I still dont understand. He was not a Mongol, his armies weren't mongols, and he fought mainly persians who had Persian leaders with slight mongol ancestory. The Ilkhanate, Chatagay Khanate, Goldern Horde, and Yuan Dynasty were all alreayd fallen before Temur, I fail to see how he can be classified as part of them.
Let's not go there :help:Quote:
Originally Posted by Orda Khan
Well, the Golden Horde was playable in the MTW late campaign, if I recall correctly? And they had a battle series campaign. It is simply the matter of appearing factions - you can't play the mongols if they appear mid-game. Since CA has decided there will be no high or late campaign, there will be no playable mongols.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orda Khan
My point just highlights the fact that eras should be in the campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringeck
Well, it was Mangku who unleashed Hulegu on what would eventually become the formation of the Ilkhanate, though each house was expected to provide troops for the invasion force, this included the Jochid house. We can discount from this point, 1251, both Chagadai and Ogodei holdings as their independent princes were executed during the great purge.Quote:
By the time the Ilkhanate was established there really was no "mongol faction". Ogodei would excert some control over his fellows, but certainly after him the mongol Empire would be divided into seperate Khanates that were only similiar in culture. I really dont see how these are internal conflicts. The wars between the Horde and Ilkhanate were wars between two fully seperate entities that were in no way two parts of the same body.
There was friction between the Golden Horde and the soon-to-be-Ilkhanate very early and this was due to Hulegu's actions in annexing land at the southern Caucasus region, land that the Golden Horde saw as theirs by right. This was further aggrevated by Berke's allegiance with the Mamluks and Hulegu's treacherous execution of the Jochid princes present within his forces.
I quite see Kataphraktoi's reasoning and let's remember certain things about the game will require a little poetic licence to achieve something like accuracy. The hostilities between these two did in fact start before the Ilkhanate were established. Berke recalled his troops, many of which returned to Mamluk ranks and some became the later known Qaraunas. These hostilities hampered both sides and having the Ilkhanate appear as an internal conflict is a fairly adequate way to depict the events.
Timur meddled with White Horde politics, he helped the naive Toqtamish attain a position of power, something he had failed to do alone. When he contested rule he had been decisively beaten by Urus. Once Urus had died the task was easier, for both Toqtamish and Timur. Toqtamish was no master strategist and took full advantage of the anarchy within the Golden Horde to defeat Mamai ( who had recently been defeated at Kulikovo ) and unite both Hordes. He improved his battlefield knowledge and reversed the Muscovite victory. Perhaps beginning to believe in his ability he thought he was a match for his mentor, which he was notQuote:
He only fought the Golden Horde because he was invaded by them first. He had supported Tecumesh to fight the Khan of the White Horde, Tecumesh was too succesful reunited the entire golden horde.
.......Orda
:laugh4: I'll defer to Orda Khan on this matter, I'm out of my league with Steppe armies :laugh4:
Hey I got banned from TWC (for a day) for sticking up for your mod!:laugh4: Can't say I care though - I accidently called someone a bad word but quite frankly he deserved it!:laugh4:
Agree. Without eras we will have units in XI century which had nothing with this century,:laugh4: like gunpowder units.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orda Khan
Good for you...:laugh4: I am general warned (not via PM) after my first post out of developer subforum. :dizzy2: I will keep my comments about moderators from TWC (btw they are not nearly good as they ate hear)...Quote:
Originally Posted by The Blind King of Bohemia
except it negates the fact that they were acting as two individual factions, well within the time period.Quote:
These hostilities hampered both sides and having the Ilkhanate appear as an internal conflict is a fairly adequate way to depict the events.
Yes im aware of all this and agree 100%. However what does it contest that I said? Or were you simply expanding upon what I had said?Quote:
Timur meddled with White Horde politics, he helped the naive Toqtamish attain a position of power, something he had failed to do alone. When he contested rule he had been decisively beaten by Urus. Once Urus had died the task was easier, for both Toqtamish and Timur. Toqtamish was no master strategist and took full advantage of the anarchy within the Golden Horde to defeat Mamai ( who had recently been defeated at Kulikovo ) and unite both Hordes. He improved his battlefield knowledge and reversed the Muscovite victory. Perhaps beginning to believe in his ability he thought he was a match for his mentor, which he was not
lets not get things confused. As any leader, Temur needed legitamacy. The best way to do this was marrying someone of Genghis descent and claiming himself the guardian of the line, Temur Gurgan. Very similiar to how Napolean would visit Aachen and view himself as the heir to Charlemagne.Quote:
In practical terms I agree, but in ideological terms Timur saw it differently.
Temur was a militaristic despot who's only real doctrine was that of conquest. Despite any ties with the Mongols or not he wanted to conquer and do as much of it as possible. His whole power became to depend on it. So I dont think Temur should be regarded as a ideological leader, more so simply a man who had an inner drive to conquer that was aided by many outside factors that made it practical to conquer.
I hate to be the drama queen, but I haven't got a response yet, and I have access and am a 'fluent" in medieval Scottish and Irish military history,and Byzantine warfare. (Believe it or not, but none of the troops actualy wore purple except a few Imperial Household horsemen!) and I would like to have a hand in it all.
Thanks again.
Lol, I was actually thinking is BKB the Blind King of Bohemia too?? !! :laugh4:Quote:
Hey I got banned from TWC (for a day) for sticking up for your mod! Can't say I care though - I accidently called someone a bad word but quite frankly he deserved it!
Cheers man, as modders we understand the pressure of disgruntled people out there. :2thumbsup:
However, as I suggested, it is an adequate way of achieving something close to the events. Nobody said it was perfect, I just happen to think it better than having no Ilkhanate presence and since there were hostilities, this way will at least reflect that.Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Atlantis
Expanding really. Neither Timur nor his prodege possessed the ability to destabilise the White Horde while Urus was alive. Toqtamish began his military career quite miserably, suffering defeat on more than one occasion. When Urus died there were at least, blood claimants to the throne which is very different to the state of affairs with the Golden Horde. At that time, with Batu's line extinct and after Nogai had done much to unsettle things, Mamai had set himself up as self proclaimed ruler. He was defeated at Kulikovo, an obvious blow to morale and even while he regrouped, Toqtamish took advantage of his weak position. At least Toqtamish was Jochid by decent even if he was not the proclaimed heir, or had relied upon Timur for his position; his defeat of Mamai and subsequent uniting of both 'Hordes' would probably have been readily accepted by the masses as a means of stability and hence, a stronger position. Unfortunately he became a little too ambitiousQuote:
Yes im aware of all this and agree 100%. However what does it contest that I said? Or were you simply expanding upon what I had said?
.......Orda
Yes expanding. I understand you may believe me to be ignorant of the situation, however I was well aware of all these events. However I did not think they were important facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orda Khan
The important thing I was stressing was the Toktahmesh was the agressor against Temur, and not vice versa. The details of how Toktamish rose to power would simply have lost that point. kataphraktoi was saying that since Temur fought against the Mongol Khanates that made it an internal conflict. I tried to briefly describe the stituations because I felt with the facts in hand it becomes aparent that Temur was his own conqueror, not a rebel insurgent and it is entirely improper to display him as such.
Thing is did he have much of a choice? Steppe armies usually depend on conquests. Temur experienced this and his force wasnt even a true steppe one. Many times he had to go on campaign because otherwise his warriors may change loyalties. After uniting the horde, Toktahmesh had to lead his armies somewhere. The only real options were Temur or Europe, and going further into Europe simply wasnt really worth it.Quote:
Unfortunately he became a little too ambitious
Hello all...just a small question, if CA extends faction cap to 30, as they have been implying in the past.What more faction have you been thinking to add?
Would we see Cilician Armenia?Or perhapes emerging Crusader states when territory of jerusalem has been conquered by crusading army?
Gazi ur from Mostar, I had a friend from Mostar too!!!
Lovely girl she was :2thumbsup:
As to ur question, we had a few emerging factions in mind but didn't set anything concrete.
Perhaps Cilician Armenians as a scripted rebellions if not as an emerging faction.
I don't know why you draw this conclusion, it's not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Atlantis
It really depends which way you want to look at it. Personally, I don't believe he acted out of 'having no other choice' or that his armies actually required more conquest. Afterall, hadn't he recently united both 'Hordes'? Added to that he had also re-enforced the Tatar Yoke. It goes back to the original south Caucasus region, disputed with the Ilkhanate, never regained and now under Timur's authority; Toqtamish was now a bit puffed up but that's just my opinionQuote:
Thing is did he have much of a choice? Steppe armies usually depend on conquests. Temur experienced this and his force wasnt even a true steppe one. Many times he had to go on campaign because otherwise his warriors may change loyalties. After uniting the horde, Toktahmesh had to lead his armies somewhere. The only real options were Temur or Europe, and going further into Europe simply wasnt really worth it.
......Orda
Anywho, kataphraktoi graciously invited me to work on the mod, for researching on the Scots, but I pointed out to him that I'm quite able to work on things as well, like the Irish, the Byzantines, and other such civilizations.
I have yet to recieve a reply or confirmation, however, so I'll say of now, that I look forward to working with you guys as a historical adviser.
-Mac
Welcome Mac Clan to team.:balloon2:
Well thank you sir. But the only thing is, and I guess I'll be eased into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia
But uh, I know your Rometotalrealism site, but have you guys got a Medieval Total Realism site up yet?
Well, they're not Cilician Armenians, but Armenians will be prominent in the Fatimid army (Early Egypt).Quote:
Would we see Cilician Armenia
Its not made by the same team that made RTR. They're just using the name to draw attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Clan
Ah, I had read on the forums that some members of the RTR team were moving to the MTR team. There was a big announcement about it a while back. In any case, what are the rest of the RTR doing anywho?Quote:
Originally Posted by Monarch
And btw, I accept kataphratoi's invite to resaerch/advise for Scotland in this mod.
Thank you.
Just a clarification in RTR and MTR.
The leadership in RTR is essentially the same as MTR, the people who inspired MTR (not me read my siggy) were from RTR's upper echelon. When we say RTR's team is not the same as MTR does not mean we're a different team that took the "total realism" name from RTR. We're stating that not everyone in RTR is working on MTR, only a small coterie.
Hope that clears the confusion.
Mac Clan, chek ur PM, its all formalised.
Question for Duke of Serbia, did you make any concept art for serbian faction units?
Done. Thanks alot.Quote:
Originally Posted by kataphraktoi
Yes. :juggle2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Monarch
Zdravo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzar_Dushan
You asked me that on twcenter. Yes, I did it and you can find in sk.co.yu/forum in Izlazi Mediewal II Total Ware thread in page ? Look around 10.:2thumbsup:
Are you here to make trouble again Port Lobo?Quote:
Yes.
Read what I wrote earlier.
Quote:
Just a clarification in RTR and MTR.
The leadership in RTR is essentially the same as MTR, the people who inspired MTR (not me read my siggy) were from RTR's upper echelon. When we say RTR's team is not the same as MTR does not mean we're a different team that took the "total realism" name from RTR. We're stating that not everyone in RTR is working on MTR, only a small coterie.
Hope that clears the confusion.
Your tone seemed caustic to me, but then again thats the problem with written communication, tone can easily be misinterpreted. My mistake for misinterpreting.Quote:
I don't know why you draw this conclusion, it's not true.
Yea, I agree his ego probally got a little bloated from his victories, however I think it was also necesary. The loyalties of the steppe cheiftans can easily be turned and the only safe remedy is succesful military conquest. Perhaps a charismatic personality could have held the loyalties together, however I don't belief Tokthamesh possesed such a trait anyways.Quote:
It really depends which way you want to look at it. Personally, I don't believe he acted out of 'having no other choice' or that his armies actually required more conquest. Afterall, hadn't he recently united both 'Hordes'? Added to that he had also re-enforced the Tatar Yoke. It goes back to the original south Caucasus region, disputed with the Ilkhanate, never regained and now under Timur's authority; Toqtamish was now a bit puffed up but that's just my opinion