Some joyous tidings from Israel

LoL!

I notice that in this particular Israel thread, by the eighth post someone had already made the Nazi/holocaust reference (with the Palestinians as the innocent victims of genocide, of course), and by the 10th post the U.S. had been blamed for the situation.

Priceless. That must be a new frickin' record for the Backroom.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

agreed. remember when israel pulled all the settlers out of gaza? there were entire army units that refused to take part in forcing the settlers out.

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That's not quite my point. ~:rolleyes:

Forcing the settlers to comply with the terms of the withdrawal was seen as a betrayal by the hard right. I was referring to the many soldiers of the IDF who have refused to serve in operations to oppress the Palestinians, not illegal Israeli settlers.

Anyway, here's another excellent and thoughtful commentator to help us reflect.

Who, in the end, truly speaks for the Gazans?

Those who are willing, just once, to lay down the axes they are accustomed to grinding, and who accurately and with both passion and objectivity describe the suffering and the violence on both sides of the border.

Those who truly speak for the Gazans are those who are willing to grant the humanity of Israeli Jews as well, and who are seeking, in a sincere effort to move past revenge and blind tribalism, a common future for peoples whom fate has somehow decreed, will continue to be neighbors.

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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

I'm truly disgusted of you and your sense telling that "I am human, you are not".

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But we are. ~;p

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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

Once more again: The whole world is about being powerful, not righteous. Jeez, you'll even have democracy-cradle Euros supporting your wicked cause.

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Yes, but some people actually make an effort to improve things and some even call them heros *cough* Atatürk *cough*, yet you come here and say we should appreciate the status quo more and not try to change things for the better. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

For ****'s sake, they are using cell phones' lights to make surgeries over there right now while you have your console's gamepad in your hand.

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I bet many of them wish they could switch to having a console controller in their hand instead of being in that "operating room", from what I quoted before you sound like you think it's fine when they can't?

Husar, are you on a deserted island ? You sound quite alienated.

Something that actually seems to be new is that appearently Egypt, Saudi-Arabia, PLO and Jordan has changed the tone versus Hamas (from stop the aggression Israel, to stop the aggression both of you).

Thoughts? :thinking2:

Reduced support from Egypt means that the smuggling will go down and that also seems to been a target.

i dont think that hamas nor israel will heed. the arab states around them havent supported either side much at all.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

i dont think that hamas nor israel will heed. the arab states around them havent supported either side much at all.

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:inquisitive: Are you serious? So do you believe Hezbollah is receiving foreign support and Hamass (yes I spelled them Ham Ass) is not? How do you think Hamass acquires the resources to construct and launch all their rockets and mortars?

no, i just think that after years of neglect (in terms of aid, not weapons) from other arab states, the palestinians wont want to listen to those countries. and AFAIK, iran is the main supplier of weapons for those two anyhow.

and expecting israel to listen to them is just a bit far-fetched.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

On the contrary, Israel is a vibrant and civilised society, and rather too democratic for its own good. Compared to its neighbours - who rather ill-advisedly have tried on numerous occasions to destroy it - it is a model of liberal practice and thought.

You make the mistake of tarring all Israelis with the same brush. There are many who deplore the treatment of Palestinians and work very hard to better the situation. There are those who go so far as to refuse military service to make their point. The challenge for Israel is that like may democracies, conservatives and liberals are pretty much present in equivalent numbers. That means that the Knesset is often divided - and thus the influential hard-line religious parties (influence derived from very few seats, but the difference between winning and losing a vote of confidence) hold inordinate power.

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Sorry I will try and explain what I meant by my earlier statement. I wasn't trying to argue Israel is uncivilized or anything like that but when I say the "Israeli state failed" I mean to concept of sticking a new country right in the centre of a part of the world governed by religion. It didn't help that the new state was also based on a religion which had a long feud dating century's with the religion already established in the region. I also know that not all Israelis are land grabbing war lovers but I'm referring the the establishment as a whole. Even Israel's "centre" party is very anti-Palestine and well the more right wing party's are even worse. I'm also right in presuming though that the orthodox Jews in Israel are predominantly anti-Palestine and they make up a majority of the population as I understood it.

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It didn't help that the new state was also based on a religion which had a long feud dating century's with the religion already established in the region.

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Actually, the Jewish people have had the best relations with Islamic nations. When the Spanish Catholics persecuted Jews, they fled to the Ottomans or Mamlukes. Islamic nations have always previously been Jewish havens from Christian persecution.

The only problems have arisen when the surrounding Muslim nations attacked Israel and, as you can tell by this thread, Jews in general. The wars became religious, fighting over "Jerusalem" and the "Holy Land" rather than about who will live where, peacefully. With the rise of extremist Muslim sects, this war has been taken to a new and disgusting level of death, killing, and murder.
Especially in Lebanon.
Lebanon was supposed to be a Christian haven, but the result was the polygot nation, with Christian, Druze, Jewish, and Muslim militias fighting it out, butchering one another for no other purpose than religion and land.

thank you Marshal Murat. my thoughts exactly.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

LoL!

I notice that in this particular Israel thread, by the eighth post someone had already made the Nazi/holocaust reference (with the Palestinians as the innocent victims of genocide, of course), and by the 10th post the U.S. had been blamed for the situation.

Priceless. That must be a new frickin' record for the Backroom.

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Actually, its not a record considering most threads START with blaming everything on the US or "Zionism"... :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

what is Israel?
the country founded in 1948, but dates way before that, and according to jews, to the time of moses.

where is it ?
biblical borders-below lebanon, to the left of jordan, and northeast of the sinai, but doesnt extend all the way doen to eilat. but thats jsut according to the bible.

what does it include or not include ?
includes everything left of the jordan river and below lebanon, ending at what is now eliat. doesnt include the sinai, and does include the golan as well as the negev.

What is palestine?
what the romans called israel and what everyone else called it up until 1948, and what some people who refuse to acknowledge israel as a country still call it.

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The size of the 'original' Israel is founded on fairly limited and unreliable religious literary references. The archeological evidence suggests a much later and more limited country occupying just some of the northern part of modern Israel.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

and by the 10th post the U.S. had been blamed for the situation.

Priceless. That must be a new frickin' record for the Backroom.

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In what possible way could the US not be blamed for the current situation?

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In what possible way could the US not be blamed for the current situation?

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:book:
We didn't lead the Jewish people to a homeland ordained by God.

Moses did.
Moses wasn't American.
US cannot be blamed for Moses leading the Jews into Israel.
US can't be blamed for setting Israel up.
QED - US can't be blamed for the current conflict between Palestinians and Israelis.

Well, at least, if nothing else, the latest assault can be blamed onto US for their GWBush's warmonging Big Israel model of governing which obviously expressed that they'll be backing Israel's actions. So before Obama takes the charge, Israel will be doing her "best" over there.

Oh now come on, don't tell me what a state's actions has to do with another's approval, it's Middle East -a playground for US.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

:book:
We didn't lead the Jewish people to a homeland ordained by God.

Moses did.
Moses wasn't American.
US cannot be blamed for Moses leading the Jews into Israel.
US can't be blamed for setting Israel up.
QED - US can't be blamed for the current conflict between Palestinians and Israelis.

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The Jews were booted out by the Romans. They were let back in during the 1930's and promptly destabilised the region. The Brits were not happy about the numbers going to the region, and managed the rather obvious conclusion that it would cause trouble.

Which nation backed them returning? Erm...
They bombed the rulers of the land - effectively acting as terrorists. Which nation didn't seem to mind this? Erm...

Israel is and always was a American puppet. It would implode in under a year left to its own devices. I understand the need for a regional "bag man" who can do all the unpleasant jobs with cast iron deniability, but at least acknowledge this.

~:smoking:

*Yawn* Typical Crap

*Yawn* Ur speaking crap 'cause I disagree with u. Byez.

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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

*Yawn* Ur speaking crap 'cause I disagree with u. Byez.

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Uh huh... congrats you've just incorrectly dissected my post/

Hit a nerve, LEN?

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Originally Posted by Kush

Uh huh... congrats you've just incorrectly dissected my post/

Hit a nerve, LEN?

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No, not at all. I was watching the news. Oh ****, look at that mortar.

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have you seen pics of what is now Tel-Aviv back in the 1880s? its pretty astonishing how much its grown.

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Have you seen pics of what is now Milton Keynes back in the 1880s ?:dizzy2:

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Tribesman is quite right to argue that a change of strategy is in the best interests of Israel.

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Or to paraphrase a quote from the media .
"If you are unable to kill the wolf don't be a prick and pull its tail"

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The size of the 'original' Israel is founded on fairly limited and unreliable religious literary references.

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Why bother Idaho , even ignoring that he got both the biblical and current borders wrong surely the approach should be that if god gave the land to the tribes and 10 of them don't exist then the only land they can claim from god is that of the two tribes that got given land :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

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Originally Posted by rasoforos

Yeah...as surgical as a 90 year old neighborhood butcher with parkinson's...after a few pints...

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Well, what can you do when they're hiding behind civilians? Israel did the best it could with what it had.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Well, what can you do when they're hiding behind civilians? Israel did the best it could with what it had.

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Why not absorb the Israeli casualties without retaliation? Accept a few dozen deaths per year as part of the mortgage on that land and move forward. Eventually, even the arab street would begin to villify Hamas and others if they were killing innocents without either a) destabilizing Israel or b) drawing a response.

Really, the only other choice is an all out pogrom -- which would tear Israel apart psychologically.



Rory:

I wouldn't go so far as to say "puppet" and I disagree with your timeline for Israel's demise absent US support. That said, the US was the foremost mover for the creation of Israel back in 1947 and was strongly supportive of Israel throughout the Cold War (and you could argue that we did let them do some of the "hatchet work" in the region for us as well as test out the efficacy of some of our weapons systems). US support continues today and is significant albeit not the do/die level you suggest.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Why not absorb the Israeli casualties without retaliation? Accept a few dozen deaths per year as part of the mortgage on that land and move forward. Eventually, even the arab street would begin to villify Hamas and others if they were killing innocents without either a) destabilizing Israel or b) drawing a response.

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The Israeli ambassador to Britain talked about this on the BBC, did you see it?

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

The Israeli ambassador to Britain talked about this on the BBC, did you see it?

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Nope. Link?

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Nope. Link?

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It was on the BBC World, sorry.

It seems to me that both sides only ever offer the stick; never really offering the carrot. Neither side is willing to comprimise enough to allow the other to get any really benifit from peace. This is in part that both sides have come to power through war and death, (hamas also provided basic services). Both parties need to appear the bigger, strong (read most stubbon) then the other.


I think in order for gaza to be furthered the answer lies in the west bank. with a moderate in Abbas it would seem to be the best option to give the west bank the carrot to balance out the tic for tac in the gaza strip.

The real answer is not countless cycles of bombing each other; so what is the best way out of this mess now and what should the sides be doing.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

The Jews were booted out by the Romans. They were let back in during the 1930's and promptly destabilised the region. The Brits were not happy about the numbers going to the region, and managed the rather obvious conclusion that it would cause trouble.

It would implode in under a year left to its own devices.

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I would have been happier to see a nation of palestine, but seeing as that didn't happen i will back israel to the hilt against those groups that wish to destroy a nation state.

I will hold you to that, and i am fairly certain you will be seen to be dead wrong. come the 30th Dec 2009 israel will not only exist but be seen to be a fundamentally 'healthy' sovereign nation.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Why not absorb the Israeli casualties without retaliation? Accept a few dozen deaths per year as part of the mortgage on that land and move forward. Eventually, even the arab street would begin to villify Hamas and others if they were killing innocents without either a) destabilizing Israel or b) drawing a response.

Really, the only other choice is an all out pogrom -- which would tear Israel apart psychologically.

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you might argue that they have, given that there have been 8000 rocket attacks on israel in recent years, but when all is said and done they are a democracy and must respond to the demands of the electorate.