Public Sector Union Beatdown Bloodbath Legismania 2011 Wisconsin-style

I think the entire education, and funding of education questions are far more complicated and nuanced than most anyone seems to consider (present company excluded).

In good old "Live Free or Die" New Hampshire, my small town pays almost 150% the state average per-student, and close to 200% of the national average, and yet, despite small class size, and the rest, our district was found to be not in compliance with NCLB standards 3 years in a row, and now we've lost federal funding. We consistently have mediocre to sub-par results on standarized testing, and make negative progress on the at-risk groups identified.

But... our teachers haven't had a cost of living increase in 5 years!!! With the inflation going on in healthcare, energy and higher education, that amounts to a significant erosion of wages. Where the hell is all the money going?

I don't know the right answers. But I do know you're not going to get them from the mouthpieces for the NEA or for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. What the hell ever happened to common-sense meets in the middle?

Anyway, I'm off to learn more. Two questions I'll leave you with...

1) How do the Unions get away with forcing people to join a Public Employees Union and calling it a "Collective Bargaining Right"? It's such prosaic Orwellian thought-speak, I don't know where to begin.

2) And shame on the other side too. If this is really about financial liquidity and not about fulfilling backroom political promises to engage in union busting, why is the governor's office turning down offers from the union for more cuts than he asked for?

I get the impression I'm going to have to hold my nose start looking for the leper with the most fingers left...

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I think the entire education, and funding of education questions are far more complicated and nuanced than most anyone seems to consider (present company excluded).

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Absolutely.

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In good old "Live Free or Die" New Hampshire, my small town pays almost 150% the state average per-student, and close to 200% of the national average, and yet, despite small class size, and the rest, our district was found to be not in compliance with NCLB standards 3 years in a row, and now we've lost federal funding. We consistently have mediocre to sub-par results on standarized testing, and make negative progress on the at-risk groups identified.

But... our teachers haven't had a cost of living increase in 5 years!!! With the inflation going on in healthcare, energy and higher education, that amounts to a significant erosion of wages. Where the hell is all the money going?

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Look towards the administration. Administration from Vice Principle and up can make real bank, but no one looks at those people. Also, look at what the school budgets are. Make the system more transparent in where exactly the school spends its money. Most people would agree with this, but they are too busy pointing fingers at teachers and unions to really make a proactive decision that everyone would agree with.

I will give an example from my own life. This was when I was in 4th or 5th grade and my memory might not be the best to go off of, so take it or leave it. My elementary school was (idk why) built right next to a major freeway in Southern California (maybe the freeway came after it), and one of the main buildings had one of its more lengthy faces showing parallel to the freeway for the drivers to see. Well, the school raised a bunch of money from a bake sale, or some sort of fundraiser they had and omg, it was a lot of money! I distinctly remember how at that point, the playground which everyone played in was old and rusted. The swings were coated in rust, the monkey bars had rust everywhere except where friction from the hands of swinging children would contact the metal, the slide had rust, etc... basically, all the children generally agreed that the best way to use this money (the school announced it over the PA during recess so everyone started talking about it then). Maybe it wasn't, who knows, I am sure teachers needed supplies as well. All I know is that the equipment needed to be replaced and everyone who used it thought it should. But for some reason, to the best of my ability, I remember that instead of providing more supplies, or starting to replace rusted equipment, the school had the brilliant idea to spent it all on paint to paint that long side of the main building which faced the freeway so that "everyone would know that this is (school name) and how much pride we have for our school." And it was an ugly mural imo.

So yeah, I figure mismanagement of money happens a lot.

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I don't know the right answers. But I do know you're not going to get them from the mouthpieces for the NEA or for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. What the hell ever happened to common-sense meets in the middle?

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There is no such thing as common sense.
Anyway, I'm off to learn more. Two questions I'll leave you with...

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1) How do the Unions get away with forcing people to join a Public Employees Union and calling it a "Collective Bargaining Right"? It's such prosaic Orwellian thought-speak, I don't know where to begin.

2) And shame on the other side too. If this is really about financial liquidity and not about fulfilling backroom political promises to engage in union busting, why is the governor's office turning down offers from the union for more cuts than he asked for?

I get the impression I'm going to have to hold my nose start looking for the leper with the most fingers left...

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1.The union has the right, the union isn't the right. They shouldn't force people to join, but there is nothing Orwellian about saying that unions which forces people to join, have the ability to sit down at the table with the company.

2. Because it isn't about financial liquidity, it's about backroom deals to union bust. That is the truth.

I'm for taking the ability to collectively bargain from the unions because otherwise in the future they'll just demand all they offer to concede now.

CR

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I'm for taking the ability to collectively bargain from the unions because otherwise in the future they'll just demand all they offer to concede now.

CR

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-facepalm- That is the point. You give a little when times are tough, you get a little back when things are better.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I'm for taking the ability to collectively bargain from the unions because otherwise in the future they'll just demand all they offer to concede now.

CR

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At least be honest and say you want the unions abolished.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I'm for taking the ability to collectively bargain from the unions because otherwise in the future they'll just demand all they offer to concede now.

CR

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This is why I'm finding the expression "collective bargaining rights" and it's misuse so annoying...

Do you mean you're opposed to automatic union membership by employees and the government collecting the union's dues for them along with payroll taxes, i.e. you support the reforms proposed by the governor?

Or do you mean it literally, that two employees discussing their salaries amongst themselves should an offense worthy of discipline?

"Collective bargaining" is a very broad term. It can even mean explaining to a colleague why you personally believe you received a promotion/award, or that you even did in the first place.

I'm not building strawmen here. I work for a fairly enlightened company (but it's not non-union). Discussing salary, bonuses and even reviews is a big no-no.

Well, if there were any doubt about our governor's intentions, this clears it up. Since our Guv is famous for not taking or returning calls, a small 'zine publisher pretended to be one of the Koch brothers to see if he could get through, and recorded the whole thing. Brilliant. YouTube embeds below the spoil tag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBnSv3a6Nh4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3a2pYGr7-k&

I politely said hello, not knowing how friendly Gilkes and Koch may be. He was eager to help. "I was really hoping to talk directly to Scott," I said. He said that could be arranged and that I should just leave my number. I explained to Gilkes, "My goddamn maid, Maria, put my phone in the washer. I'd have her deported, but she works for next to nothing." Gilkes found this amusing. "I'm calling from the VOID--with the VOID, or whatever it's called. You know, the Snype!"

"Gotcha," Gilkes said. "Let me check the schedule here...OK, there's an opening at 2 o'clock Central Standard Time. Just call this same number and we'll put you through."

After getting Governor Walker on the line, the jokes pretty much wrote themselves:

Murphy as Koch: Well, not the liberal bastards on MSNBC.

Walker: Oh yeah, but who watches that? I went on "Morning Joe" this morning. I like it because I just like being combative with those guys, but, uh. You know they're off the deep end.

Murphy as Koch: Joe--Joe's a good guy. He's one of us.

Walker: Yeah, he's all right. He was fair to me. [...]

Murphy as Koch: Beautiful; beautiful. You gotta love that Mika Brzezinski; she's a real piece of ass.

Walker: Oh yeah. [...]

The call ends with Murphy-as-Koch promising, "once you crush these bastards, I'll fly you out to Cali and really show you a good time." "All right," the other man says, "That would be outstanding."

While I find that amazingly entertaining, and good stuff, come on Lemur. It'd be easier to confirm things in the Onion. If he put that much thought into this prank, certainly he could have gone to Radio Shack and purchased a $10.00 phonecall recorder, which as long as he's one of the participants, he's entitled to do.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

While I find that amazingly entertaining, and good stuff, come on Lemur. It'd be easier to confirm things in the Onion. If he put that much thought into this prank, certainly he could have gone to Radio Shack and purchased a $10.00 phonecall recorder, which as long as he's one of the participants, he's entitled to do.

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Not sure what your objection is, Don. I included the audio below the spoil, and the calls have already been confirmed by the governor's office as legit. Here's a partial transcript.

-edit-

A good take:

The critique many conservatives have made of public-sector unions is that they both negotiate with and fund politicians. It's a conflict of interest. Well, so too do corporations, and wealthy individuals. That's why Murphy -- posing as Koch -- was able to get through to Walker so quickly. And it shows what Walker is really interested in here: He is not opposed, in principle, to powerful interest groups having the ear of the politicians they depend on, and who depend on them. He just wants those interest groups to be the conservative interest groups that fund him, and that he depends on.

Seems like the buffalobeast site got slashdotted or something. :no:

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Seems like the buffalobeast site got slashdotted or something. :no:

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Yup, they've been crushed by the traffic. However, the YouTube embeds are still good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBnSv3a6Nh4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3a2pYGr7-k&

Why are people still defending this guy?

I didn't know the Governor's office had confirmed it, and I didn't see anything for the audio. Consider me updated...

Edit: By the way, given all the so-called "sting" operations against first ACORN, and then Planned Parenthood, regardless of your stance on what he's trying to do, shouldn't Walker get a nomination for dumbest person of the modern media era?

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index....ms-the-reality


About time someone had the balls to tell the teachers and others to start paying for their stuff.

The runaway politicians hid in my town...

Anyways, I thought this said "Bust the Onions", and I was on the verge of hilarity, but I read it again and...well...

*not aiding the discussion in any way. In fact, this post is pretty stupid. If you feel like deleting, oh moderating one,be my guest.

Here is another article on a similar situation in New Jersey, where Governor Christie has been fighting tooth-and-nail with our (really powerful) teacher's union ever since he took office. While it hasn't reached Wisconsin-esque proportions - yet - the battle's gotten pretty nasty overall.

Of particular note in the article on one of the pages is a bit about how governors are finally going after unions as a last resort. They've tried all the gimmicks like casinos and whatnot over the past several administrations and with the stimulus money slowly starting to dry up, it still isn't enough to fix the state budgets. I wonder if this is going to be a growing trend over the next couple of years, especially if the executives win out over the unions and other governors look towards their example.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

-facepalm- That is the point. You give a little when times are tough, you get a little back when things are better.

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That's not what happens. The unions never want a little when things are good, and they never want to give anything up when things are bad.

They want to raise taxes so no union people get fired when there's a recession. They want huge pensions that can not be supported in the future when times are good.

Huge union pensions could bankrupt states - the public unions have to be broken in addition to the pensions being cut so we don't get in this situation again.

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At least be honest and say you want the unions abolished.

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Just public unions.

CR

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

That's not what happens. The unions never want a little when things are good, and they never want to give anything up when things are bad.

They want to raise taxes so no union people get fired when there's a recession. They want huge pensions that can not be supported in the future when times are good.

Huge union pensions could bankrupt states - the public unions have to be broken in addition to the pensions being cut so we don't get in this situation again.

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Where in this talking point did you decide to ignore all the articles/evidence highlighting how the union is willing to completely give the state the financial concessions it wants, just as long as collective bargaining is maintained?

One thing this thread has got me thinking, If government employees can't trust the government to treat them fairly, and therefore need a union, how can the citizens trust the government to treat them fairly?

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Originally Posted by Chuchip

One thing this thread has got me thinking, If government employees can't trust the government to treat them fairly, and therefore need a union, how can the citizens trust the government to treat them fairly?

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You can't fully trust anything. All you can do is put decent people in charge and hope for the best.

good question

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Where in this talking point did you decide to ignore all the articles/evidence highlighting how the union is willing to completely give the state the financial concessions it wants, just as long as collective bargaining is maintained?

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The Unions are most unhappy about:

Overturning the current practice of removing union subs without employee consent
Having to have in essence a vote of confidence on an annual basis

Y'know - giving the workers some clout over who represents them.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Chuchip

One thing this thread has got me thinking, If government employees can't trust the government to treat them fairly, and therefore need a union, how can the citizens trust the government to treat them fairly?

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We don't.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

The Unions are most unhappy about:

Overturning the current practice of removing union subs without employee consent
Having to have in essence a vote of confidence on an annual basis

Y'know - giving the workers some clout over who represents them.

~:smoking:

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That's cool, but it has nothing to do with what I was saying.

CR says: They never give up financial concessions.
I say: They have already.
You say: Non sequitur about how flawed its internal structure is.

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Originally Posted by drone

We don't.

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Ha yea maybe we need a revolution, but not a tea party one cause country music sucks

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Originally Posted by Chuchip

Ha yea maybe we need a revolution, but not a tea party one cause country music sucks

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How dare you!

Aaaaaand ... now it looks as though Anonymous is involved. Well, that's it, game over. Remember how they utterly destroyed the Church of Scientology? Oh, wait, they didn't.

Whatever. Should increase the trash-TV quality of our home state's little drama, however:

The online activist group "anonymous," which has used coordinated denial of service attacks -- a crude but effective Internet weapon -- to temporary disable sites belonging to foes ranging from Scientology to WikiLeaks foes -- has turned its firepower on the Koch-backed conservative group Americans for Prosperity, making the group's site intermittently unavailable tonight.

From the typically immodest press release, which begins, "Dear Citizens of the United States of America":

It has come to our attention that the brothers, David and Charles Koch--the billionaire owners of Koch Industries--have long attempted to usurp American Democracy. Their actions to undermine the legitimate political process in Wisconsin are the final straw. Starting today we fight back.

Anonymous cannot ignore the plight of the citizen-workers of Wisconsin, or the opportunity to fight for the people in America's broken political system. For these reasons, we feel that the Koch brothers threaten the United States democratic system and, by extension, all freedom-loving individuals everywhere. As such, we have no choice but to spread the word of the Koch brothers' political manipulation, their single-minded intent and the insidious truth of their actions in Wisconsin, for all to witness.

Anonymous hears the voice of the downtrodden American people, whose rights and liberties are being systematically removed one by one, even when their own government refuses to listen or worse - is complicit in these attacks. We are actively seeking vulnerabilities, but in the mean time we are calling for all supporters of true Democracy, and Freedom of The People, to boycott all Koch Industries' paper products. We welcome unions across the globe to join us in this boycott to show that you will not allow big business to dictate your freedom.

The DNS attack appears to have made Americans for Prosperity's website intermittently unavailable, but it will likely also help establish AfP among conservatives as the key group at Governor Scott Walker's side.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Aaaaaand ... now it looks as though Anonymous is involved. Well, that's it, game over. Remember how they utterly destroyed the Church of Scientology? Oh, wait, they didn't.

Whatever. Should increase the trash-TV quality of our home state's little drama, however:

The online activist group "anonymous," which has used coordinated denial of service attacks -- a crude but effective Internet weapon -- to temporary disable sites belonging to foes ranging from Scientology to WikiLeaks foes -- has turned its firepower on the Koch-backed conservative group Americans for Prosperity, making the group's site intermittently unavailable tonight.

From the typically immodest press release, which begins, "Dear Citizens of the United States of America":

It has come to our attention that the brothers, David and Charles Koch--the billionaire owners of Koch Industries--have long attempted to usurp American Democracy. Their actions to undermine the legitimate political process in Wisconsin are the final straw. Starting today we fight back.

Anonymous cannot ignore the plight of the citizen-workers of Wisconsin, or the opportunity to fight for the people in America's broken political system. For these reasons, we feel that the Koch brothers threaten the United States democratic system and, by extension, all freedom-loving individuals everywhere. As such, we have no choice but to spread the word of the Koch brothers' political manipulation, their single-minded intent and the insidious truth of their actions in Wisconsin, for all to witness.

Anonymous hears the voice of the downtrodden American people, whose rights and liberties are being systematically removed one by one, even when their own government refuses to listen or worse - is complicit in these attacks. We are actively seeking vulnerabilities, but in the mean time we are calling for all supporters of true Democracy, and Freedom of The People, to boycott all Koch Industries' paper products. We welcome unions across the globe to join us in this boycott to show that you will not allow big business to dictate your freedom.

The DNS attack appears to have made Americans for Prosperity's website intermittently unavailable, but it will likely also help establish AfP among conservatives as the key group at Governor Scott Walker's side.

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Have you even followed what anonymous has done? The attack on CoS was meant to deal as much damage as possible with the hope of "bringing it down". This was anon's first foray into political matters, so give it a little slack here. They ended up in the spotlight across the country, which is what the purpose of the entire thing was. Get people informed about Scientology, besides a south park episode, Scientology really wouldn't be in the public discourse if it wasn't for anon, perfect for a group willing to recruit. Look up their efforts on HBGary and how they embarrassed the company and its founder. Actually, why don't I just link to a video that says just that,
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-col...down-wikileaks

Despite all of that, I don't understand why you sound indignant that anon is trying to clean up corporate corruption in your state in the first place. Don't tell me this is one of those, "Those crazy kids!" kind of thing.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Despite all of that, I don't understand why you sound indignant that anon is trying to clean up corporate corruption in your state in the first place. Don't tell me this is one of those, "Those crazy kids!" kind of thing.

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I doubt they're trying to do anything other than make a name for themselves. I've read about some of their less high-profile targets and this group has dogpiled on a number of defenseless people. (sorry, I looked for the links- but you try getting good results by googling for "anonymous" anything....)

In other news, thank goodness for the new tone of civility. You'd hate to see the union protestors acting like those nasty tea partiers.
Here's a video of an angry mob chasing down and cornering a GOP Wisconsin Rep. He's saved by a Democratic fellow Representative.

A nice thing about this kerfluffle is that it's forcing me to pay attention to state politics, a subject about which I have existed in a condition of near-perfect ignorance. I had no idea about the "Wisconsin Veto," for example. So, if the legislature passes a law stating, "No sex with dogs," the governor can amend it to "Sex with dogs"? Fascinating.

The Wisconsin Veto

What most people outside Wisconsin don't know is that our governor wields a veto power on appropriations bills so strong as to be frankly comic. It's not just a line-item veto; Walker has the power to veto individual phrases and words (PDF) -- like "not" -- from sentences. If the state Senate returns to session and passes a bill with time limits on Walker's favored provisions, he can strip out the new language and sign his own decompromised version into law. If that sounds crazy, keep in mind that until 2008 governors of Wisconsin could -- and did! -- veto multi-page sections of bills, leaving in place only eight or nine words spelling out a law the governor wanted to enact. And that, in turn, was a much-narrowed version of the so-called "Vanna White veto" power enjoyed by Wisconsin governors prior to 1990, when they could veto individual letters out of words and individual digits out of numbers.

Even in its defanged state, the partial veto makes it hard for the legislature to talk meaningfully about compromise, on this bill or on controversial legislation still to come.

According to a staffer at the Legislative Fiscal Bureau, the legislators are well aware of the partial-veto problem in the current negotiations. Writing a "veto-proof" appropriations bill in Wisconsin is essentially impossible. The Senate could break the collective bargaining provisions off the rest of the bill, making it non-appropriations and thus sheltering it from the governor's black Sharpie -- but that would mean passing a budget repair bill without any mention of collective bargaining at all, a level of independence of which Senate Republicans, with the possible exception of Schultz, have shown no hint. In the end, the Senate would probably have to rely on a handshake agreement with Gov. Walker to leave the bill intact. At this point, what is a handshake from the Governor worth? That depends whether you think the governor would openly defy a bipartisan deal to get his way on collective bargaining. The partial veto is wildly undemocratic, but it's a Wisconsin tradition. I think Walker would probably do it; and it's not clear he would pay any serious political price.