Russian military jet downed by Turkey

Speaking of comics:

http://i0.wp.com/genevalunch.com/wp-...size=550%2C470

http://jto.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-conte...12-870x634.jpg

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm...66f39a6880.jpg

"The french comics show that the cartoonists are so uninspired" :laugh4:
You are obviously an authority in that matter...

Err, so why are you linking a Belgium thing, if I might ask?

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Originally Posted by Brenus

"The french comics show that the cartoonists are so uninspired" :laugh4:
You are obviously an authority in that matter...

Err, so why are you linking a Belgium thing, if I might ask?

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Disclaimer:
My posts, unless stated otherwise, express my own opinion, not facts.

The linked Belgian article concerns the Turkish and Russian versions of the affair.

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Originally Posted by Crandar

The french comics show that the cartoonists are so uninspired that they resort to purely provocative and shocking content, devoid of any ironic, sarcastic or even slightly humorous characteristic for everyone whose puberty is over.

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Welcome to the wonderful world of political cartoons. Feel free to leave your wits with the drooling doorman, you wont be needing them here.

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Originally Posted by Husar

No, the thing that makes it seem wrong is that Russians were the victims and Russians are also made fun of. It is this connection that seems bothersome/biased. Yes, maybe poltical cartoons are biased but I think that one stinks and it is interesting (and wrong!!!111) that noone takes issue with it and Brenus has a completely different interpretation. That is all.

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We dont take issue with it because it doesnt portray the victims badly. In fact the only one that might be considered as being disparaged here are the russian air force.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I end up on your side in some and on his side in other discussions, it reassures me that I always represent the sensible side of an argument. ~;)

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I wonder if you got some foul mouth (aka label sticking) from me when we didn't agree on some point.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I think you two should just respect eachother a bit more, I think you're both not stupid but maybe a bit nationalistic when the relevant topics come up.

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Brenus wants me to feel both and denies himself being either.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Everybody knows Germany is the best country and I don't get why others can't see that!

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Now there's three of us hard core nationalists. Only I had thought that nationalists are those who hate other nations, not those who love their own country.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I don't think their intention was to insult the victims. Some message is obviously there. It's just that they didn't care about the victims or a nation in mourning. Empathy -> 0.

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This about sums up my stance on the cartoons. Intentionally or not CH ended up being callous meannies.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

Again, they didn't make fun of the victim, Russian or not.

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Everybody saw the cartoon and interpreted it the way he thought right. Yet you again are trying to deny them their own eyesight and ability to make conlusions. :no: Let them have their own opinion for God's sake, the Defender of Democracy.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

As far as i can tell samaritan is bitching that CH is even toutching the airliner incident, as if he was muslim and the pic was of muhammad.

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Because he is a good SAMARITAN.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

"that noone takes issue with it" Gilrandir did.

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As our argument shows, there are other parties to it, no need to single me out.

Nobody asks from you to like the cartoons. I think they are tasteless but I don't mind that. People shouldn't be so easily offended. You just cannot not offend if you make satirical cartoons about certain issues.

"Everybody saw the cartoon and interpreted it the way he thought right" Nope, only two (plus you=3). So, you are not in the majority...

"Let them have their own opinion for God's sake, the Defender of Democracy." They have to full right to be wrong... I like when defender of democracy becomes an insult...:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Brenus

You still failed to show how the Russian are made fun of. What in the drawing is making fun of Russians. or the victims?

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I explained that already, twice, a third time will be no different so I'm done here because we are only going to have a pointless circular argument from here on.

You explained nothing. You vaguely describe your thought based on alleged stereotypes, which are in fact not share by the lefties in France. You gave no concrete base for your claim, nor Sarmartian or Gilrandir... I think both of you had a very fast reading of the cartoon, and you react as you said, because it was a Russian Plane, so it had to be offensive.
However, as you will not admit it, I agree to let it goes.
The last I had this kind of discussion, my interlocutor just left the org... Well, not entirely my fault, I grant you this.:sweatdrop:

Sorry to interrupt the discussion of comics.

I had a friend send me a link I thought I would share.

http://yournewswire.com/russia-says-...d-russian-jet/

I have no idea if it is information or disinformation, to be honest. But my guess he means it as information and is in a position to know.

It just put an interesting spin on events, don’t you think?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34957224

So, the Turks are handing back the pilot's body.

A report in Serbian newspapers cites a Greek diplomat who said that Turkish airplanes stopped violating Greek airspace a few days ago. He said violations of Greek airspace by Turkish pilots were common, up to a 1000 a year, but there hasn't been a single one in the last few days.

Haven't been able to find an English source but there's a blog post about that. http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/201...-fighter-jets/

It appears Turkey violates Greek airspace on a daily basis.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

A report in Serbian newspapers cites a Greek diplomat who said that Turkish airplanes stopped violating Greek airspace a few days ago. He said violations of Greek airspace by Turkish pilots were common, up to a 1000 a year, but there hasn't been a single one in the last few days.

Haven't been able to find an English source but there's a blog post about that. http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/201...-fighter-jets/

It appears Turkey violates Greek airspace on a daily basis.

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Yeah, we also violate theirs, but not sure if it happens on a daily basis. Actually, both sides had casualties and we almost went to war in 1996, thanks to nationalist journalists from both sides.

Given the regular violations, our love for the blonde orthodox brother-nation of the north and the fact that we hate Turks and Muslims so much that we had a couple of volunteers in Srebrenica, you can imagine the public opinion's stance about the affair.

Almost hysterical, people cry that Saint Paisios' prophecies that we will get Istanbul back are about to be confirmed and many people can't wait to be recruited, in order to strike the NATO forces from the back.

"in order to strike the NATO forces from the back." It is what I was ready to say in the other thread: Some one can imagine the Greeks engaging Russian Tanks to protect Turkey with a straight face? When we are still unable to resolve Cyprus?

I for one, would like to see Istanbul once more be called Constantinople and for the Hagia Sofia to lose its minarets. Greece has the navy and airforce to do it, but they lack the ground forces and the logistical capability to go toe to toe with the ottomans. Now, Greece leaving NATO and joining hands with Russia is another story.

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Originally Posted by Myth

I for one, would like to see Istanbul once more be called Constantinople and for the Hagia Sofia to lose its minarets. Greece has the navy and airforce to do it, but they lack the ground forces and the logistical capability to go toe to toe with the ottomans. Now, Greece leaving NATO and joining hands with Russia is another story.

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Why? We have no right to the city, which has a larger population than Greece herself. Better avoid ethnic cleansing of several millions.
Actually, it's the Turks that would like to incorporate Western Thrace, due to the large percentage of Muslim inhabitants that mostly identify themselves as Turks.

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Originally Posted by Myth

I for one, would like to see Istanbul once more be called Constantinople and for the Hagia Sofia to lose its minarets. Greece has the navy and airforce to do it, but they lack the ground forces and the logistical capability to go toe to toe with the ottomans. Now, Greece leaving NATO and joining hands with Russia is another story.

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What good would that do, things just are what they are right now.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

"Everybody saw the cartoon and interpreted it the way he thought right" Nope, only two (plus you=3). So, you are not in the majority...

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If others didn't express either admiration or disgust at the cartoons it doesn't mean they are of the like mind with you. So it could be that you aren't in the majority either.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

I think both of you had a very fast reading of the cartoon, and you react as you said, because it was a Russian Plane, so it had to be offensive.

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National affiliation of the plane doesn't matter. Making fun of ANY victims is ethically inapropriate.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

Some one can imagine the Greeks engaging Russian Tanks to protect Turkey with a straight face?

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Here we go again about Russian tanks. :no: RUSSIAN TANKS WOULD NEVER REACH GREECE. Or do you think Greeks will march either through Bulgaria-Romania-Moldova-Ukraine or Turkey-Georgia to reach the steppes were Russian tanks have their habitat? All the hostilities Russia will have with Turks are bound to be war in the air. That is if the parties will ever move further than the initial blow (downing the Russian plane). Putin has some other worries on his hands to boot:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34922789
https://therussianreader.wordpress.c...rike-dagestan/

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Originally Posted by Crandar

Why? We have no right to the city, which has a larger population than Greece herself.

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Indeed. Ancient symbolism that doesn't need reviving. Nothing good would come of it.

Even Hagia Sophia is better off as a museum than remaking it a church.

I just can't get over the ottoman invasion. I know it's ludacrious and it won't happen, but I'm salty over it.

Anyway, in regards to the comics: i find the picture of the russian plane and the text as insulting as this picture:

https://s21.postimg.org/l101gg2br/1448890670570.jpg

If you can laugh about the former, you can laugh about the latter.

I dont remmeber anyone claiming that the cartoon was funny.
Sure I've implied that if you find such a benign cartoon insulting you are a thin skinned limp wristed little pussy who is so weak and oversensitive that it's a wonder you can function in society, but I've never said the comic was funny.

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Originally Posted by Myth

I just can't get over the ottoman invasion.

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30,000 years ago, a very distant relative of mine called the plot of land you live on home, vacate yourself from it immediately.

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

30,000 years ago, a very distant relative of mine called the plot of land you live on home, vacate yourself from it immediately.

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That could be your new sig.

"If you can laugh about the former, you can laugh about the latter." As noted before, no one claimed it was funny. Some claimed without any real ground it was offensive towards the victims.
Your comment has no connection at all with the 2 cartoons, however the cartoons are describing a reality: 3 men with automatic weapons can slaughter more than hundred un-armed French.
So what is either funny or insulting in these 2 cartoons? A side the terrorists I mean? And even to them, it is not an insult but the description of a pure reality of their lack of courage...
So who is insulted in your sample?
Every murderer know this: To attack un-armed crown is absolutely a winner game, see Anders Behring Breivik, or your average Einsatzgruppen...

Ohhh, I get it.... You didn't find the the picture of the russian plane and the text insulting!!!!

"So it could be that you aren't in the majority either" Yeah, but I never claimed it. You did: "Everybody saw the cartoon and interpreted it the way he thought right"

"RUSSIAN TANKS WOULD NEVER REACH GREECE" Your lack of military experience is showing, as the one for parabola... In case of NATO attacking or defending Turkey (reason why Greece would have to engage Russian tanks), the Greek Army, depending situation, could: Push to the front line through the Balkanic countries until reaching the Danube basin (look at a map), or to cross Mediterranean sea to meet the Russian tanks on Turkey's soil. But my words were not to be taken literally.
I was simply questioning the reality of Greece defending Turkey...

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Originally Posted by Brenus

however the cartoons are describing a reality

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I didn't know the Sinai was ISIS territory, but thanks for the reality lesson.

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Originally Posted by Crandar

Why? We have no right to the city, which has a larger population than Greece herself. Better avoid ethnic cleansing of several millions.
Actually, it's the Turks that would like to incorporate Western Thrace, due to the large percentage of Muslim inhabitants that mostly identify themselves as Turks.

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This is a rather complex question, actually, because the Turks are currently converting many of the Byzantine churches - which have been museums - back into Mosques. This is the policy of the current Turkish government, to distance itself from secularism and to embrace a more Islamic political and civic life.

Personally, I cannot help but feel that despite breaking Constantinople's walls, killing the Emperor and building minarets around Hagia Sophia Justinian's Church is still the proper seat of the Ecumenical Patriarch. It also seems to me that the Greeks would be a happier people if they held Constantinople.

Also, not Postal Act can make it into Istanbul, though the Turkish policy of discrimination has basically driven out the Greeks.

I mean, it's up to the Greeks whether or not they want to go to war over it, I agree it's not worth it right now but it's worth noting that the Treaty of Sèvres was intended to provide for Constantinople's ultimate handover to Greece along with the rest of Thrace and Ionia.

Remember that the Western European view of Greece vacillates between a yearning for what Greece was and disdain for what it is, neither of which is accurate of fair as an assessment.

"I didn't know the Sinai was ISIS territory, but thanks for the reality lesson." Oh, please... Read the text: "however the cartoons are describing a reality: 3 men with automatic weapons can slaughter more than hundred un-armed French."

I start to understand how you reach the conclusion the Plane cartoon was offensive for the victims...:inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Brenus

Your comment has no connection at all with the 2 cartoons, however the cartoons are describing a reality: 3 men with automatic weapons can slaughter more than hundred un-armed French.

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I believe it is supposed to prove (or mock) the "attack the terrorists" theory a la Ben Carson - if people try to jump the attackers all at once, they would defeat them. It is bollocks either way. Since those terrorist carry guns that can fire 130 bullet in 5 seconds or so, my money is really not on the unarmed civilians.

But, that is an internet meme, unlike a cartoon by a (now famous) political satire magazine. It doesn't carry nearly the same weight.

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

This is a rather complex question, actually, because the Turks are currently converting many of the Byzantine churches - which have been museums - back into Mosques. This is the policy of the current Turkish government, to distance itself from secularism and to embrace a more Islamic political and civic life.

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That is a separate issue and, while true, shouldn't be mixed with who owns the right to the city.

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Personally, I cannot help but feel that despite breaking Constantinople's walls, killing the Emperor and building minarets around Hagia Sophia Justinian's Church is still the proper seat of the Ecumenical Patriarch. It also seems to me that the Greeks would be a happier people if they held Constantinople.

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Bah, silly. Why would they be happier? The city is Turkish, true and through. Before the conquest it was really a Roman city.

Hagia Sophia is better off as a museum. The only valid reason for Christian nations to demand the return of it would be if it were to be converted into a mosque again, but I don't think even Erdogan is that much of a fanatic.

Look, without Constantinople the Greeks can't recruit cathaprhacts. That's reason enough.

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

This is a rather complex question, actually, because the Turks are currently converting many of the Byzantine churches - which have been museums - back into Mosques. This is the policy of the current Turkish government, to distance itself from secularism and to embrace a more Islamic political and civic life.

Personally, I cannot help but feel that despite breaking Constantinople's walls, killing the Emperor and building minarets around Hagia Sophia Justinian's Church is still the proper seat of the Ecumenical Patriarch. It also seems to me that the Greeks would be a happier people if they held Constantinople.

Also, not Postal Act can make it into Istanbul, though the Turkish policy of discrimination has basically driven out the Greeks.

I mean, it's up to the Greeks whether or not they want to go to war over it, I agree it's not worth it right now but it's worth noting that the Treaty of Sèvres was intended to provide for Constantinople's ultimate handover to Greece along with the rest of Thrace and Ionia.

Remember that the Western European view of Greece vacillates between a yearning for what Greece was and disdain for what it is, neither of which is accurate of fair as an assessment.

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Greeks would also be very happy, if they ruled the world, but I doubt that the world is very excited about that, just like the 14 millions of Istanbul wouldn't be very happy about the conquest of their city by the Greeks.

We have no right to the city, we can hardly claim that we have more Byzantine blood than the modern Turks and anyway, Mohammad II captured a ruined town and transformed her into a majestic metropolis. I think they're more entitled than us.

Concerning Hagia Sophia, I hope that she will remain a museum, better avoid making a random, semi-literate, religious leader responsible for the preservation of one of the most magnificent historical monuments of humanity.

And it is called Istanbul, not Constantinople, guys, only the fascists of Golden Dawn keep calling it that way in international, political discussions.