Kerry's joke was stupid no matter how he said it. Bush got an education, so it's a really moronic joke. Studying doesn't make you smart, thinking does.
(Sorry if that's been pointed out, a little late to this thread)
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Kerry's joke was stupid no matter how he said it. Bush got an education, so it's a really moronic joke. Studying doesn't make you smart, thinking does.
(Sorry if that's been pointed out, a little late to this thread)
The ironic part is that even if we take the joke as it was wriiten for him the fact remains that Bush has a better academic record than Kerry. So where does this leave Kerry?Quote:
Kerry's joke was stupid no matter how he said it. Bush got an education, so it's a really moronic joke. Studying doesn't make you smart, thinking does
JealousQuote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
“So where does this leave Kerry?”: Real war hero who fought for his country even knowing the battle was lost? Kind of my country was wrong but I did my duty… I think it is one your Green Beret song which says: You have to believe what you are saying, and to say only if you do… Translation of a translation, so of course it probably better in the original, but it is how I learned this song when I was in the Army… Bush said it is the duty to UAS to go to war, and never did, Kerry said this war is wrong but I had to go… Sorry guy, I still prefer the second…
Bull. He was one of the main reasons we lost. Hero my ass.Quote:
Real war hero who fought for his country even knowing the battle was lost
“Bull. He was one of the main reasons we lost. Hero my ass”: Ho, the US gives the Medal of Honour to every body… Didn’t know that… US lost because the Vietcong and NVA showed they won’t give up. You lost because people like W. Bush didn’t show up to go and to fight for their country…:beam:
Hope that's ironic. The US decorated him for whatever he did in that war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
As for his 'joke', I don't see what's wrong with it. We could see it here in Belgium on tv, and my first reaction was that he was talking of Bush. A politician who tries to insult his opponent. No harm in that. Hell even our Karel insults our neighbours more.
Gawain made the comment because:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Kerry's spokepersonship during Senate hearings, his participation in the Winter Soldiers anti-war campaign, and the general tenor of his campaign for the House of Representatives in 1972 war ardently anti-war and pretty well anti-military. He played on and played up the anti-war sentiment in the USA at the time. Since it is that sentiment that led to "Vietnamization" and our withdrawal (and subsequent defeat), and not direct defeat upon the field of battle, Gawain is attributing our loss to Kerry's efforts. This may overstate Kerry's role a bit, but I agree with the sentiment. Read up on the conflict and you will find that we won the war by breaking the Tet offensive of 1968 -- only to lose it because Americans were depressed and frustrated that it was taking too long, which gave the NV courage to continue.
Kerry did not receive the Medal of Honor. He was decorated for bravery (silver and bronze stars if I recall) and for being wounded on 3 occasions during his service in Vietnam.
George Bush served in the air national guard. Guard units were largely withheld from combat service as a political decision. Why Bush chose service in the guard over service in the infantry only he can know.
“Kerry did not receive the Medal of Honor. He was decorated for bravery (silver and bronze stars if I recall) and for being wounded on 3 occasions during his service in Vietnam.” Ok, sorry, he was JUST wounded three times when W Bush enjoyed life in Texas. Decorated for bravery when the other one would have been decorated for brewery (sorry, couldn’t resist), but he is the coward…
I still don’t understand…
“Read up on the conflict and you will find that we won the war by breaking the Tet offensive of 1968 -- only to lose it because Americans were depressed and frustrated that it was taking too long, which gave the NV courage to continue.”: I studied the Vietnam wars. The first one, because my father went there (1948-1951) and the US’ one because I grew-up with the Vietnam on the news every night (and the comments of my father…). Têt broke the Viet-Cong. In fact, nobody can be sure that it wasn’t the political target for the North. The US loose for the same reasons the French did: too far, too long, too costly. France had the advantage that only volunteers and professionals were sent there, but the war was unpopular.
The US sent GI’s and the bodies count was on. The US population probably didn’t care too much about the Vietnamese but their sons were dying and that was important. The Communist leaders, Ho Chi Minh, Giap and Lê Duc To understood than what ever the cost in their ranks, they had to kill Americans to create a disillusion within the USA.
Kerry served honorably in combat and, at least in the opinion of some of his peers/superiors, bravely as well. Regrettably, many of my fellow travelers among conservatives have said as much, or gone so far as to label Kerry a traitor. I have not, and I am skeptical of those who do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
His policy initiatives, political stance, and communication style are more than enough for me to deride.
Myself being one of them , I despise the man.Quote:
Regrettably, many of my fellow travelers among conservatives have said as much, or gone so far as to label Kerry a traitor.
None of which were serious and some of dubious orign, Not only that but he took the escape clause of 3 wounds and you can go home after only serving there for four months. He deserted his men. Then went home and dispariged them with lies. It was the peace movement and not the North Vietnamese that lost us that war. Thats the only way we can loose in Iraq as well.Quote:
Ok, sorry, he was JUST wounded three times
Who necro'd this thread? It's like 2 years old.
In other words:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
I think Gawain might know a little bit more about it than that lady.
“It was the peace movement and not the North Vietnamese that lost us that war.” Ah… It was NOT the total incapacity of the US to win. Well, if as rightly stated the Têt did kill of the Viet-Cong how is it possible that the US couldn’t finish-off the job? If the peace movement took place, it was BEAUSE this incapacity to win. That kind of remark, and no disrespect to the veterans, reminds me what the Germans were saying after WW1.
“None of which were serious and some of dubious orign”: Ooops, the Vietcong missed him on purpose… The NVA recognise him and just INTENTIONALLY inflicted only light injuries. 3 times. Some are dubious means more than one. So, not only the NVA just fake to shoot at him (thing that W Bush was not even exposed at…) but the 2 others injuries were to: a) his own soldiers, b)his own, c) accident, you know, jump from the boat, twist an ankle etc…
“He took the escape door”: Err, if you are injured 3 times, yes, you can do that. You can think your luck was enough challenged and perhaps it is time to go home… Of course, that s the US army can’t recognise when 2 on 3 injuries are fake or dubious, that’s it…
“I despise the man.” Obviously, and in doing it you forget to mention he lied to his mother when young, shoplifted and smoked drugs… It is a think to despise a man for his political point of view, his past behaviour or whatever, but to deny a guy of his past is obviously kind of Stalinist Procedure.
By the way, I don't like him, but with no reason. It is just like that...:beam:
Because the american people have lost the ability to fight a real war. Just look at Iraq. Bin Laden is correct. America is a paper tiger. Not because its military is weak but because its people no longer have any balls.Quote:
if as rightly stated the Têt did kill of the Viet-Cong how is it possible that the US couldn’t finish-off the job?
Well they do honor him in their war museum.Quote:
Ooops, the Vietcong missed him on purpose…
Maybe you should do a little research into the matter before making such statements. His wounds were superficial at best and one self inflicted.Quote:
Some are dubious means more than one. So, not only the NVA just fake to shoot at him (thing that W Bush was not even exposed at…) but the 2 others injuries were to: a) his own soldiers, b)his own, c) accident, you know, jump from the boat, twist an ankle etc…
As A Marine who served in Nam I have plenty of reasons to dispise him.Quote:
Obviously, and in doing it you forget to mention he lied to his mother when young, shoplifted and smoked drugs… It is a think to despise a man for his political point of view, his past behaviour or whatever, but to deny a guy of his past is obviously kind of Stalinist Procedure.
By the way, I don't like him, but with no reason. It is just like that...
I assumed as a veteran marine you disliked everyone who isn't a vet or a marine. Including vets who aren't marines and marines who aren't vets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
As for officers who were incompetent I think we all can dispise them regardless of our backgrounds.
Why would you possibly assume such a thing?Quote:
I assumed as a veteran marine you disliked everyone who isn't a vet or a marine.
So you know the type I mean then. From what Ive read about Kerry he seems a typical case. By the way people its very easy for officers to get medals.Quote:
As for officers who were incompetent I think we all can dispise them regardless of our backgrounds.
Just me being cheeky :laugh4: :clown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
I don't think this is the case at all. I've always admired Americans for their passion and I think they have plenty of balls to fight a war. The problem is the wars they've been involved in.Quote:
Because the american people have lost the ability to fight a real war. Just look at Iraq. Bin Laden is correct. America is a paper tiger. Not because its military is weak but because its people no longer have any balls.
The soldiers yes but the people no, Were too civilised now. WW2 pretty much castrated Europe and Nam was the end of the road for us. The only western nation that still knew how to fight was Israel and it seems even they have lost it now. Were doomed by our own sense of ethics. Thats why civilizations rise and fall. Were too complacent and dont see anything really worth dying for.Quote:
I've always admired Americans for their passion and I think they have plenty of balls to fight a war
Correction: We don't think Iraq is worth dying for.
When everyone is facing Mecca maybe reality will finally sink in.Quote:
Correction: We don't think Iraq is worth dying for
Like when the IRA was running rampant we all thought the world would become catholics. :laugh4:
So Gawain , clearly you either havn't seen the address or you don't know who your president is .Quote:
And you can find one to Bush? Just read what he said.
Until then you havn't got a leg to stand on
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: yes the invasion of Iraq is a bold move to stop the world converting to Islam :dizzy2:Quote:
When everyone is facing Mecca maybe reality will finally sink in.
Utter nonsense, they lost in Vietnam because they couldn't win .Quote:
He deserted his men. Then went home and dispariged them with lies. It was the peace movement and not the North Vietnamese that lost us that war. Thats the only way we can loose in Iraq as well.
They had all the information telling them they were highly unlikely to get anything like a win before they went in over a pile of lies , but ignored it just like they have in Iraq .
So Gawain , what lies did Kerry say about you and your service in Nam ?
How many villages did you raze , what livestock did you shoot , how many prisoners did you abuse , did you kill any civilians , did you destroy their food stores ?
If the answer is none then why do you think he was talking about you and your work with cameras ?
If the answer is none then why are you defending those people who did do those things ?
Do I need to remind you that you have written on this forum about torture and abuse practiced on prisoners in Nam , so you cannot deny that it happened , in fact you thought it was OK to do it , though your info was only second hand and you yourself never threw any prisoners out of helicopters as an aid to obtaining information .
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Well they do honor him in their war museum.
Soooooo Gawain could you enlighten me as to what the occasion was when Kerrys picture displayed in the museum was taken ?
Could you name any of the other american politicians (and their parties) or the serving and ex military officers who accompanied him on that visit and also had their picture up ?
Do you actually know what the delegation that is featured in the musem was there for , or are you just getting your info from the thouroughly discredited bunch of liars led by O'neil ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
But you respect a man that practically fled military service all together? ~:confused:
I mean...for whatever flaws that Kerry has....he sure as hell did a lot more for his country back then then bush did.....if he chose to come back and talk against the war.....hell...who else has more right to do so then someone who was there?
The IRA was never about taking over the world or converting people to Catholisim.Quote:
Like when the IRA was running rampant we all thought the world would become catholics
We couldnt win because we werent willing to fight a total war. Thats why I protested the war and left the Marines. If you want us to go fight and die over there dont handicap us.Quote:
Utter nonsense, they lost in Vietnam because they couldn't win .
Telling lies about my fellow Marines. I had to put up with all kinds of BS because I was a Marine from civilians. Its not like today when people at least respect the troops.Quote:
So Gawain , what lies did Kerry say about you and your service in Nam ?
How many villages did you raze , what livestock did you shoot , how many prisoners did you abuse , did you kill any civilians , did you destroy their food stores ?
Never said he was.Quote:
If the answer is none then why do you think he was talking about you and your work with cameras ?
Quote:
Do I need to remind you that you have written on this forum about torture and abuse practiced on prisoners in Nam , so you cannot deny that it hap
Goahead and remind me. The worst I remeber is taking a bunch of them up in a chopper and telling them if they dont answer our questions we'd throw them out. Which we did. However the chopper was only a few feet off the ground. I never saw this personally however but heard it from many grunts. Marines are known to exaggerate at times however,Most of my posts on torture in the Marines were on torture I inflicted on Marine officers in escape and evasion school.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images2/kerrymuseum1.jpg
Are any of their pictures hanging in the museum? The point is they picked Kerry, Hes their man. The Vietnamese will tell you that the anti war movement won them that war. Heck they like him so much they removed the picture when he started to get flak for so as to help him get elected.Quote:
Could you name any of the other american politicians (and their parties) or the serving and ex military officers who accompanied him on that visit and also had their picture up ?
Make your mind up Gawain
So no Marines killed any civilians , no marine shot livestock , none would ever burn a village , none would even consider abusing prisoners .......Quote:
Telling lies about my fellow Marines.
so which is it ?Quote:
Which we did. However the chopper was only a few feet off the ground. I never saw this personally however but heard it from many grunts. Marines are known to exaggerate at times however
While your mind tries to figure out how to get off that little contradiction which coupled with a wholesale detatchment from reality over Vietnam which makes your insistance of the non-existance over a few words uttered and a few imaginary words that were not uttered by Kerry (that was the original topic) seem like small fry .
Now then , since you were in the vicinity of the conflict when it was going on perhaps you can answer these little questions .
What was the status of prisoners of the various categories ?
What changes were made by your government regarding that ?
Who had jurisdiction over those various categories of prisoners ?
Under what article of either US military law or the international conventions of the laws of war does "grunts" throwing prisoners out of a chopper not = a crime of war ?
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Are any of their pictures hanging in the museum? The point is they picked Kerry, Hes their man. The Vietnamese will tell you that the anti war movement won them that war. Heck they like him so much they removed the picture when he started to get flak for so as to help him get elected.
Straight from the swiftboats website eh Gawain , do you have an avertion to truth ?:thumbsdown:
So tell me , what exactly is it you have against the MIA and their families ?
edit to add Hey Gawain , here is a tough one for ya .:inquisitive:
If you were to have looked at the picture of the chairman of the senate committee on missing servicemen , which General from the joint cheifs was in the picture to the right , which leaders of which delegatons of veterans associations were in the picture to the left and where was the picture of the entire delegation placed:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
There are missfits in every walk of life. But it was not the policy of the Marine Corps or the US do this as insinuated by Kerry an admitted war criminal.Quote:
So no Marines killed any civilians , no marine shot livestock , none would ever burn a village , none would even consider abusing prisoners .......
So which is what? Do you consider that torture?Quote:
so which is it ?
Under the fact that they suffered no physical harm. The guys on Jackass go through lots worse as did every officer who ran into me and my pals at evasion school. Now we knew how to torture people as we got our methods straight from the Vietnamese.Quote:
Under what article of either US military law or the international conventions of the laws of war does "grunts" throwing prisoners out of a chopper not = a crime of war ?
No that came from me .Quote:
Straight from the swiftboats website eh Gawain , do you have an avertion to truth ?
Nothing. Only against Kerry. Im not arguing why he went over there. Im just stating that the Vietnamese think he helped them win the war and thats why they singled him out and hung up his picture.Quote:
So tell me , what exactly is it you have against the MIA and their families ?
Who cares.Quote:
If you were to have looked at the picture of the chairman of the senate committee on missing servicemen , which General from the joint cheifs was in the picture to the right , which leaders of which delegatons of veterans associations were in the picture to the left and where was the picture of the entire delegation placed