Byzantium

Something I've discovered during my Byzantine campaigns:


Byzantine guard archers are not your everyday archer corps: they're well-armored and good at melee fighting. Not the best infantry fighters, mind, but very serviceable nonetheless. They're not as lethal in ranged combat as English longbowmen, and they lack the punch of gunpowder units -- but with armor upgrades they can serve as Roman legionaries.

One of the Romans' great advantages in battle was the pilum, the javelin. Byzantine guard archers don't have javelins, of course, but they can start shooting from farther away, which compensates for the lower level of armor-piercing punch.

Thinking thus, I began to construct my Byzantine legions in the following manner:

10 Byzantine guard archers
5 Heavy infantry (Varangian guard for preference)
4 Heavy cavalry (Kataphractoi for preference)
Assorted specialists (General, Vardariotai, artillery, etc.)


Deployment is based on the manipular legion:

A = Archers
C = Cavalry
M = Melee infantry

CC AAAAA CC
AAAAA
MMMMM

Archers are ordered not to skirmish. As the enemy closes in, the arrows start to fall; it's not gunpowder, but ten stacks of archers can do a lot of damage, and the damage only increases as the enemy draws near. When melee fighting begins, fire-at-will mode is disabled; the front rank stands its ground and gives battle, while the second rank continues to rain arrows on whatever enemies are hanging around the edge of the fighting. As the front rank is depleted, the second rank steps into the breach. Should gaps appear in the line even after such reinforcement, the fully rested melee infantry (think Triarii) rush in and butcher the exhausted foe. Cavalry can be used to wither the flanks and rear with hammer-and-anvil style charges. When the enemy routs, melee infantry and cavalry withdraw and the archers form ranks, pouring more arrows into the backs of the fleeing foe. The long range and high ammo compliment of Byzantine guard archers lets them shine over their Roman forebears in this regard -- they can slaughter routers without breaking ranks, allowing them to instantly resume a defensive posture at need.

You don't have much to fear from massed cavalry charges into your archer contingent, by the by -- witness the Battle of Crecy. What you lack in English longbows can be made up by the sheer volume of archers at your disposal. The enemy cavalry have no choice but to charge your archers or die ignominiously under a storm of arrows -- thus pinning them to your archers, assuming they even survive the charge. Send in your own heavy cavalry to crush them from behind, and it'll be a slaughter.

Artillery are mainly useful because of their long striking distance. The enemy will have to engage at close quarters in order to avoid being taken apart piecemeal; but then they come within arrow range and the fit really hits the shan. Plant your cavalry to either side, forcing the foe into a long, narrow funnel -- your arrows will be maximally effective under such conditions. By the time they close for melee combat, they'll be in no condition to fight anything.


Summing up: Roman legions went out of style because of the battle of Adrianople, where massed cavalry broke the Romans' ranks and they didn't have anything like enough time to use their pila effectively against such targets -- fast-moving, lots of momentum. Guard archers can shoot from longer range, negating this cavalry advantage and bringing the Legion back into style. Roma vivo!

Dude, in this game no spearmen means death or poverty. As much as i hate it the Biz heavy cav is not up to the Catholics. So your cathafracts will hardly be a match to FK, or CK. Not to mention how "easy" is to build earl or king stables. Even if they made it some how, the cost will be to great.Your stack will be wipth out from 10 FK only. And about the mongols.
Dismounted latinkon are better than variag (on ver 1.02) and easy to build. Plus that way all your units will be made in a citadel.
On the other hand the guard archers are really good as you say it. So i propose a army of 4 guard archers, 5 dismounted latinkon and 5 biz. spearmen. The rest is vardariotary. Way? Because the Byzantium here do not have pure might and armor, instead they have agility. And the best HA in the game. Use it. Biz is not Rome, and is not France. And since 4th century A.D. all infantry armies become a joke.

I used to think the same way, but the army I just described is working pretty well so far. More heavy infantry and spears can be added as specialists, but the core formation hasn't failed me yet in wars against Westerners. One or two thousand arrows before the engagement begins make decent substitutes for spears, and if the enemy is really Cavalry-heavy the archers can always skirmish back into the lines whilst spear specialists handle the rest.

your formation looks good, but you'll probably need some spearmen to watch your flanks and some fast cav to chase down routers (who said horse archers ?)

another thing, I read that you use fire at will. Though it is efficient already, I'd like to stress that focusing 10 unit-fire on a single unit can be devastating too.
for instance, those silver chevron guys you spot among the enemy's army on the campaign map, or just to create a gap in the line...

Still I like your formation, it really feels like it is some sort of legion that has evolued over time.

Typically what I've done is use Kataphractoi as flank protection; circumstances have conspired at points throughout the campaign such that it was often easier for me to get quality archers and horses than spearmen, which is where the formation first came into being. Armor upgrades can give Byzantine guard archers a defense rating about equal to that of dismounted lancers; they can hold out in melee long enough to receive support from specialist hand-to-hand fighters, which they only really need if they're facing high-quality heavy infantry or cavalry that got through the initial hail of arrows. The crippling effect of mass arrow fire usually wreaks enough devastation on oncoming infantry so that the one-on-one melee superiority of the enemy's fighters doesn't matter as much.

(This can be somewhat surprising -- it surprised me when I first began to experiment -- because one usually doesn't get to see the effects of that much massed arrow fire on an oncoming formation. But consider; 10 stacks of 60 archers each, would release 600 arrows in one full volley. Even if the enemy comes in hard and fast enough for you to only get off three volleys, that's still 1,800 arrows loosed before the melee fighting even begins. If we're conservative and say that 1 arrow in 30 will kill an enemy soldier, that's 60 enemy casualties right off the bat, or a full infantry stack. Not a bad body count, all things considered.)

Interestingly enough, my experience is that light cavalry chasers aren't as important with this sort of army than they are with others; routing foes tend to fall like wheat before a scythe, because they lose their shield bonus against missile fire when their backs are turned. 80% or higher casualties on the enemy side is not unusual, even when no attempt to catch routers with cavalry is made whatsoever.

Vardariotai are useful in such a force because of their harassment potential -- unlike the all-horse armies I tended to favor with Byzantium before, they get used more as bait than as attackers in their own right. They're excellent for leading enemy soldiers into the guard archers' firing range, and have a good enough defense rating and charge bonus to demolish missile troops sent forward to skirmish before the main engagement. They're often critical components of the army in that capacity, since the foe has no choice but storm the guards' position when they can't effectively return missile fire.

It definitely sounds like you have a long experience of using this force.
I guess it is finetuned to your needs.

finding good and unorthodox formations is a reason why I still play custom battles from time to time.

The formation I just described is the core of a series of other formations; I listed it first because it is the most flexible, and may be adapted by the addition or subtraction of specialists, the rearrangement of soldiers, or changing the supporting units. The core formation is inappropriate in some circumstances -- here are two examples of relatively simple and versatile modifications:


A = Archers (Byzantine Guard Archers)
M = Melee Infantry (Dismounted Latinkons, Byzantine Infantry, Varangian Guard)
S = Spear Infantry (Byzantine Spearmen, Dismounted Byzantine Lancers)
C = Cavalry (Heavy -- Byzantine Lancers, Kataphractoi)
H = Cavalry (Harassers -- Skythikons, Byzantine Cavalry, Vardariotai)
X = Enemy unit



Anti-Knight Variant: the Sandwich

My basic formation, described above, is best suited to fighting infantry units with relatively low attack power -- they're slow-moving, which causes them to suffer more before melee commences, and they're not likely to slice the Guard Archers to ribbons when they finally reach close quarters. When fighting lots of heavy cavalry, the basic formation would do well to be changed:

AAAAA
CC SSSSS CC

AAAAA

Set the spears to Guard Mode, and disable skirmish mode for the rearmost rank of archers; let the front rank skirmish. Keep the front rank of archers in action as long as possible; archers are more accurate when they don't have to fire over the heads of their own soldiers, which makes each arrow count for more in the early engagement. As the enemy cavalry advance, get the front rank to melt back into the empty rank behind the spearmen, ready to serve as reinforcements after the charge comes; disable skirmish mode as soon as they're in position. The troop deployment should look like this:

CC SSSSS CC
AAAAA
AAAAA

Which presents a strong front to onrushing knights, absorbing their charge and putting your guard archers on more of an even keel if they need to bolster the line at a later stage. The archers are also free to lay down supression fire on those enemies which have not yet joined the press of melee, which lets you play on the advantage of having lots of ranged units. If your archers never get a chance to shoot, you might as well have brought along more lancers. Also, notice what happens in the event that your enemies manage to kill off your lancers:

XXXXX
CC _____ CC
AAAAA
AAAAA

They get a nice salvo of arrows full in the face. Point-blank shots are nasty. Especially cool is if you bring your cavalry around to box them in:

C C
C XXXXX C
AAAAA

AAAAA

You get one of my favorite tactics in the history of ever, Hannibal's Crescent. If they try to rout, send your cavalry back to protect your flanks and prepare the archers to start pouring arrows into their retreating backs. If they flee the field, you've won; if they rally, feed them more arrows. Unless something really weird happened, you've just about won the engagement by this point. (Not necessarily the whole battle, just the bit involving snippy horses.)



Anti-Heavy Infantry Variant: The Bursting Dam

This one's an old favorite for taking down heavy infantry, such as Dismounted Feudal Knights. It's rather like the Sandwich in its intial shape, save that the melee component is comprised of Varangian Guards:

CC AAAAA CC
MMMMM
AAAAA

Normally, proposing that archers should take the brunt of the first charge from heavy infantry would be suicidal. However, Byzantine guard archers have very good armor by archer standards, and they can take a decent beating when they have to. Their purpose here is to trip up the incoming enemy infantry, pinning them in place and possibly taking a few down. By maximizing the amount of time they stay in front, you maximize the accuracy of the arrow volleys they lob at the enemy as they close. Flat trajectories are your friend -- it's a large part of why gunpowder units are so effective. (Apart from the high attack power and armor penetration, that is. Bullets fly pretty straight, which means a fair number of them are going to hit the mark.)

Now, excellent heavy infantry won't be stopped forever by Byzantine guard archers -- Janissaries, for example. The front ranks are going to start looking a little thin, so that something like this happens:

XXXXX
CC AAAAA CC
MMMMM
AAAAA


X_XX_
CC AXAAX CC
MMMMM
AAAAA

Notice that some of the heavy infantry are now contiguous with your Varangian Guards. The Varangians can now fill the archerless breaches, which is all part of the plan; Varangians don't use shields in melee, which makes them more vulnerable in the initial charge. But when they actual crush of hand-to-hand combat begins, their armor-piercing axes are a terror on the battlefield. Bring the cavalry around to encircle the enemy formation, and get the Varangian guards to press forward. Their axes are designed to cut through this kind of foe, and the enemy has already been depleted by arrows, tired by fighting the archers, and demoralized by the sudden cavalry strike. They are, in the immortal words of Thucydides, "pwned".

You can do the same thing you've described, a lot cheaper by replacing the Guards with Horse archers, the cheap unarmored ones. But in stead of bunching every body up you spread the HA out with the heavy Infantry in the center. let the enemy see the Infantry and charge them then bring the HA in to shoot from either side. Because you are attacking from the rear flank you'll do more damage. If the enemy stops to chase the HA units then simply run away. The idea is to get the enemy moving sideways back and forth. If he does he is playing your game if he doesn't he dies anyway. Horse archer can actually do a lot damage, even against heavily armored knights especially if the horse is not armored. The Horse archers have a decided advantage against the early gun powder units because they have a much faster rate of fire. Range even outs because they can rush in and out and attack from behind

You'd be surprised how many times your Spearmen or heavy infantry end up just standing there nearly the whole battle waiting to be attacked. You just have to keep the HA unit beyond each other's range.

The Guard archers cost too much and are too valuable on city walls to use the way you've drawn it up. A group of Guard Archers inside a besieged city will slaughter any other unit in the game

H = Horse Archer individual units
BI = Byzantine Infantry/Spearmen Whatever group
EU = Enemy Unit groups


H -------> EU <--------H
H -------> EU <--------H
H -------> EU <--------H


_________BI

That's true -- Skythikons make excellent ranged attackers in their own right. My reasoning for using the Guard Archers was as follows:


1) There are half again as many Guard Archers in a stack as Horse Archers -- ten stacks of Guard Archers lay down as many arrows as fifteen stacks of Horse Archers, which does a fairly decent job of evening out the price differential.

2) In the campaign in which I first started using Guard Archers, I had a bucket of 'em laying around Acre with nothing much to do, and decided to experiment. These sorts of tactics were the eventual result, as Egypt was delighted to discover. ~;)

3) In the aforementioned campaign, money was no object and gold chevrons are stylin'.

4) I've been using Horse Archers almost exclusively for a long, long time, and decided to branch out a bit. As it happened, the Guard Archer experiment was very successful and I figured I'd give the wider community a shout-out.



So, Horse Archers are great -- but I'd never actually used Byzantine infantry units for anything, and it's neat to discover that they can pull their own weight with style.

Another way to do this would to use the horse arches on the side and the Guard Archers in the throat of the trap. With their longer range you might be able to hit the enemy from three directions.

There is also a problem, I think with with launching arrows against any heavily armored target head on. That is where they have armor and shield bonuses. I would like to see some statistics of kills by 60 foot archers loosing arrows at a group of heavy cavalry coming at them head on versus the number of kills obtained by attacking the same cavalry from behind or without the shield bonus. This is a really criticism of your strategy just a general observation. The back armor on most knight type units is 1/2 or less than the front with a shield. I wonder how much difference that makes?

Probably quite a bit -- I'll have to run some experiments and find out. Provisionally I'd say that high shield bonuses are a real problem, though they may be mitigated to a certain extent by the use of flaming arrows. Huge numbers of Guard Archers might be able to cause a rout before the enemy closes in, allowing them to strike at the less-defended backs of the heavy infantry before they rally again.


By the by, is this a decent rendition of what you meant about the Horse Archers?



A = Archers (Byzantine Guard Archers)
M = Melee Infantry
C = Cavalry (Heavy -- Byzantine Lancers, Kataphractoi)
H = Cavalry (Harassers -- Skythikons, Byzantine Cavalry, Vardariotai)



4 Harassers
4 Heavy Cavalry
10 Guard Archers
5 Melee Infantry

H

H

H

H

CC AAAAA CC
MMMMM

AAAAA

Front archer rank is sent to skirmish, as in the Sandwich. The missile cavalry lurk in the far front, preferably under cover. Missile cavalry only begin to fire when they've got round the back or sides of the enemy infantry; ideally, they begin to shoot at the same moment as the Guard Archers. The enemy cannot turn in any direction without exposing their backs to one or the other contingent of ranged attackers, maximizing the opening damage potential. When and if they close with the Guard Archers, there'll be a sizeable cavalry force at their backs, ready to charge in and force a rout. If they charge the missile cavalry, use the steppe maneuver. If they stand still... well, that's an awful lot of arrows to sit there and take, wot?


In my experience with such armies, I've been able to win against infantry forces repeatedly through the agency of Heavy Cavalry -- swinging them around from the flank is an excellent way of inducing a rout. Routs are critical. Every instant spent out of hand-to-hand combat is a point in your favor. Routing and rallying enemies have to cross the same distance twice; your archers catch them coming and going. As such, Heavy Cavalry serve an offensive and defensive purpose: offensive to keep the Archers' ranged advantage open for as long as possible, defensive to keep the heat from settling on them too long. Guard Archers are, regrettably, ill-suited to slugging it out with the best of the best. They can pull their weight in a swordfight, but that's not their main job. Cavalry-induced routs can give your Archers valuable breathing room, reducing the final casualty count.

Yes that is more or less the idea. Though you are probably better at it than I am.

Hey everyone, its been awhile since I posted here. Just came back from Zante... erm... that might be spelt wrong lol. Anyway in my hotel I was playing as the Byzantinian Romans, damned best faction in the game :2thumbsup: :laugh4: , and the two most pestering factions I came across was Venice who kept declaring war and then wanting cease-fire's left right and center and them damned Hungarians!!! The Turks I understand becuase of the old blood fued, which rocks!! damn them lol. I need help handling the Venetians, as the Hungarians are easily held at Sofia with my Varagian Guard, they just keep throwing massive stacks of seargent spearmen with pavise crosbow men... it eventually gets too much. The missile cavalry are VERY handy, thanks romans!!! lol The tech level I'm at, military wise is up to Dismounted Byzantine Lancers so... any helpful tips are gratefully appreciated!

Thanks again!

Gizmo,

Look at my walk-through for the Byzantines.

I find, especially if you auto-resolve that the Byzantine troops do not match up against the Venetians very well. However I describe how to mollify them long enough to take out the Turks and by then you have an over whelming economic advantage and the ability to build Byzantine Swordmen or Dismounted Lancers

Here are some basic tricks
1. Marry Anna the princess to the Hungarian royal heir at the beginning of the game. Alliances based upon marriage last longer than those based upon diplomacy.

2. Don't take Sophia the Hungarians will fight to get it and don't build a port in Corinth until you are already to go to war with th Venetians because they WILL Blockade it only a turn or two after you complete it.

3. Don't get serious with the Venetians until you've taken out or about taken out the Turks. Let them blockade you and make peace. Only worry if they send an army. If you've taken Durazo make sure you have a big stack, even if it is militia in the town. It will discourage them from sieging it to fullfill a mission.

3. Don't try and beat the Venetians in one few swoop but in a series of three or four wars. The first time they start a war take Iraqlion and possibly Ragusa then make peace and build. Let them start another war take another province and so on until they are gone. Once you get hold of Ragusa and get it producing troops turn Corinth into a city.

4. The key to breaking the Venetians is actually Ragusa. They have no other castle. If you take it they have real problems. Without the heavy cavalry that they can build in Ragusa your troops are a match for them.


5. I don't normally keep Venice. There are too many cities within a turns march of it. It also is a very attractive target. I exterminate the population, and sell any building that can be sold then give it to a nation such as the Danish or Portuguese I'll offer to swap it to them for trade rights, map information and 500 gold. They will almost never attack you and end up being a buffer between you and the Milanese and HRE. Indeed, I don't like N. Italy. I'll sometime go in there and take all the cities and and then sell everything and then let the rebels have them all. You'd be surprised how many times no body takes them back for 25 or 30 turns.

From my own experience in writing a Byznatium AAR, I thought I'd share a few impressions. Of course these have been mentioned before.

1. Ally with the Hungarians. Anna Comneneus can get you a marriage alliance a few turns in. It's a good investment as you don't have to worry about the northern frontier for a while and can focus on the east (Turks) and west (Venetians).

2. Durazzo is a pit. It's unwalled, of limited financial value, takes forever to build up and is often the cause of a war with Venice or Sicily. It's a $%#-hole but everyone seems to want it. Avoid it unless you have plans to expand further into the Balkans. The same could be said, to a lesser extent, of Trebizond. It's out in the middle of nowhere, it's really not connected to the rest of the Empire and it can be the cause of an early conflict with the Turks. However, if you want to take on the Turks, it's a troop center close to Yerevan and might be useful to open up a second front on their Anatolian settlements.

3. Nicosia and Rhodes (if you take it) should be converted to towns to take advantage of trade. Corinth too perhaps as it is not well placed for a Castle.

4. Sofia is key, beat the Hungarians to it. It helps establish a Danube frontier and gives you a castle on your border.

5. Historically speaking the Turks are your major enemy, but the Venetians seem to beat them to the punch. Maybe it's the difficulties of marching through Anatolia, or the fact the Turks are busy picking off rebels at Adana or Mosul, but the Venetians seem to attack Byzantium first.

6. Having a navy is good idea. I have fleets centered in the Aegean and the Adriatic (when I expanded). This allows for picking off Iraklion and moving troops to active fronts. Also fire ships kick butt. Navies can also be used to close land bridges in case you don't want avaricious Crusaders wandering across your empire. I also use ships to shuttle forces to and from Nicaea and Constantinople, as the land connection between the two adds a few turns of travel time.

7. Vardariotai are your friend. They are an advanced HA unit that you can build from the beginning. They're also decent in a pinch for melee, and excel at rout pursuit. I didn't like or know how to use HAs when I started but I quickly gained an affinity for them after getting the Vards. This is good because your beginning infantry and regular cav are ordinary. Oh, Trebizond archers, also available from the beginning, are nifty as well with long range. You may not be able to slug it out toe to toe with the western powers, but you've got stand off power. Many times I rained death on advancing forces and as soon as they hit my main line, they routed.

I agree with all of OverKnight's points, with only minor adjustments. Sound advice, sir, and I'm enjoying your AAR.

My current campaign is very similar. For instance;

1. Marriage alliance with Hungary (with subsequent small donations) has lasted quite a while AND provided an ally against Venice...instead of another enemy.

2. Durazzo is indeed a pit, but it's a great stepping stone to Ragusa! And once you have that castle, you've hamstrung the Venetian weenies! *maniacal laughter here*

3. Agree 100%. Every island and peninsula should be a money-making city. The Empire needs only a few strategic castles in the early and mid-game.

4. Yes! Sofia should be the huge rock fortress that Constantinople hides behind! Take it first, build it up, and never relinquish it! While it should be able to withstand seige after seige, another option is to meet the invaders in the field, before the seige, and let the Vard do what they do best.

5. Venice will attack. I just accept it and plan on an assault of Ragusa and then Iraklion. ALLY WITH THE TURKS (I know, I know...wash my mouth out). But it gives time to build a bit and believe me, those dirty Turks will betray you...just like you want.

Here's how I did it: Like OverKnight, I sent Prince John to Smyrna, then Rhodes...then Adana! Sadly, he was lost in the assault on Antioch, but the point here is Adana - it's a nice way to attack the back-stabbing Turks from multiple sides. As soon as they betrayed me, forces marched from Adana, Smyrna, and Nicaea.

6. Navies. Yup.

7. Guns don't kill people. Vards do. These guys are just too good. Flying purple people eaters.

8. Additional point here. Ikoner's Studios are very helpful. Build them and watch your conversion rates climb.

Only halfway through this campaign and I'm already a member of the I-heart-Byzantines Club.

i like to keep corinth as a castle.just build a lot of fram at corinth and send your highest level chivalry governor to corinth.once you can't build frams any more build the two troops building you think you will need the most.all ways build the upgrade to next level as you can get it.by doing this you can get dismount latinkon at trun 54 or mount latinkon.did this in my lastest byzantine campaign.i got both dismount latinkon and varangain guard at trun 54.i argee adana is a must have, the turks like backstabing you by attacking adana.

Actually I find Corinth quite a suitable for a castle. Especially during the first 40-50 turns. Byzantium's navy is at least on par if not superior to nearby powers - which makes shipping troops around, feasible and Corinth acts like a hub (at least in my games) for staging and ferrying troops very quickly to various parts of the Empire (it can quickly reinforce byzantine posessions in the Adriatic - if you went that route - or protect important spots of the empire (constantinople, for example), it can be used for invasions across the Mediteraneean, etc. I use naval transport A LOT when playing the Byzantines.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hellraiser

Actually I find Corinth quite a suitable for a castle. Especially during the first 40-50 turns. Byzantium's navy is at least on par if not superior to nearby powers - which makes shipping troops around, feasible and Corinth acts like a hub (at least in my games) for staging and ferrying troops very quickly to various parts of the Empire (it can quickly reinforce byzantine posessions in the Adriatic - if you went that route - or protect important spots of the empire (constantinople, for example), it can be used for invasions across the Mediteraneean, etc. I use naval transport A LOT when playing the Byzantines.

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Corinth is useful at the start of the game since it is the base from which you can launch attacks on the Italian Peninsula and Sicily with great ease from their. It is a vital base. Do not count on Thessaloniki for defending it since there is a bridge right under Durazzo. Later this castle might become useless, so convert it into a city if you still can!

Things to know when playing as Byzantium

You are Christian but not Catholic. This has an up side as well as a down side.
You can not call crusades but if you take a crusade target the crusade will end!
The Pope can not call a crusade against you, but as you are not Catholic, Crusading armies can attack you and your cities on the way to their target. If you are strong enough take the target first, otherwise stay out of their way.

Vardariotai are the strongest starting unit you have and should be the best HA in the game, but it doesn‘t seem to perform as well as some of the others. Still it is what you have to work with and you can win with it. If you are new to Horse Archers just remember to use all your arrows before you fight. Also set them on wide spacing and string them out to only two ranks deep. Use them on the flanks to form a kill sack. Engage and shoot the enemy from the rear when ever possible. If someone chases a unit out of line send a second to hit him from behind.

Most of your easy access units will come from castles so if you want spear or archers, go to the castles first.

Archers are your strongest suite vs. the eastern factions and most of the western ones so learn how to use them to best effect, whether you are using horse or infantry.

Exploit

When dealing with the emerging factions (Mongols et al) forts with only and agent inside are no-go areas for them. I discovered this when trying to get them to occupy them so I could have a turkey shoot with artillery…they avoid empty forts and you can use them as bottle necks to separate or channel them or just block access to an area. Just have something behind them or they can‘t move over them to bypass your traps. Placing them in front of bridges or fords will usually make them go elsewhere.

I'm deep into my first campaign as the Byzantines, and although it was pretty smooth sailing at first, now things are looking not so good, mostly due to my bad judgement. My game was pretty crazy, with the Turks doing nothing, Poland going on an early crusade and moving their capital to southern Anatolia, and me ignoring the advice of almost everyone in this thread and driving into northern Italy, central Europe, and the Balkans. My >90% HA cavalry armies ate the Venetians alive at the beginning, and their faction is now destroyed. Now I've crippled Hungary, taken Rome and relegated the Papal States to the most pathetic horde ever (mostly just a navy), crippled Milan by taking everything but the city on Corsica, and taken a substantial chunk out of the HRE. The only problem is that, as you might have guessed, every catholic faction hates me and wants my head on a pole :skull: . So there's 5 catholic factions warring against me now that France and Denmark have joined the fray. I made an alliance (by princess) with Russia, and even they randomly broke it and began attacking. And the worst part is, of course, the Mongols just took Antioch and are creeping up on my back doorstep, which is poorly defended (the Turks are weak, remember?). My cities are full of unrest, because they are deep in catholic territory and filled with spies from about 7 factions, so if I take my sizeable garrisons out, they will revolt. Now, I'm starting to run under the line with even my substantial economy because of the Black Plague and the strain of maintaining cities.

I figure once I lose or give up I'll try an alternative strategy. :sweatdrop:

If the Mongols came in through Antioch you're fine. There are two "bridges" where troops can walk from the western to the eastern side of the Aegean: the Hellespont and the Dardanelles. Block both with fleets and the Mongols won't be able to cross. You might lose any territory you have on the eastern shore, but you can certainly stop them from getting to the western shore en masse. I'm not sure about the later patches, but the Mongols in the earlier versions were never big naval invaders. They'd build the occasional dhow but I never saw them load troops on them to go anywhere; they'd just march where they wanted to go.

yeah I've found that field armies of 4 Var Guard,6 Guard archers 1,or 2 generals and the rest Vardariotai.I've had some good results with this against Russia and Hungary,as the crossbowmen will follow my light calvary half-way across the map,then I turn and annihilate them,but on another note,do not make war on the papacy. I made the mistake of doing this since I was getting tired of them landing stacks on my doorstep every turn,now I have half the italian penisula trying to re-take Rome which i took away from them,the crusades are next..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oz_wwjd

yeah I've found that field armies of 4 Var Guard,6 Guard archers 1,or 2 generals and the rest Vardariotai.I've had some good results with this against Russia and Hungary,as the crossbowmen will follow my light calvary half-way across the map,then I turn and annihilate them,but on another note,do not make war on the papacy. I made the mistake of doing this since I was getting tired of them landing stacks on my doorstep every turn,now I have half the italian penisula trying to re-take Rome which i took away from them,the crusades are next..

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Well, crusades are something you don't need to worry about, as it is impossible to declare a crusade vs either Byzantium or Russia.

with all due respect to the legion idea above. I'd suggest a good open field formation simply consists of Vards. There is a great guide in this forum.They are easy to acquire in numbers building up there numbers from the start onwards and they utterly decimate with few casualties and extremely favourable capture numbers in most situations and have supreme mobility. Obviously this army is of great deal less utility in settlement fights (although you could handily defeat siege sallys) but I think thats is a role to be filled by and large by a mostly infantry army.

Nice tips guys i shall try them in my next byzantium game.

I tried a different approach than the most posters suggested here, i nmy last Byz game (hard difficulty setting)

Most of you guys agree that Turks must be taken out ASAP. Generally I couldn't agree more but this time my plan was to let them live and pose a significant threat to the Mongols.

1. Married the princess to a hungarian family member - this is an excellent move indeed. It secured me an everlasting peace on the northern flank (past turn 80+, relations took a slight dive but I manage to keep them at 'good' by gifting them $ 200 every now and then).
2. First steps were to secure Sofia (kept as castle), Smyrna (city), Rhodes.
I did not expand at all north of the Black sea or west of it. I let Trebizond to the turks as my goal was to have a chance at preserving peace with them.
3. Then the Venetians thought the Mediteraneean wasn't big enough for the two of us and attacked.
Having few troops to maintain and focusing primarily on developing cash producing and pop growth buildings, fending them off was not an issue as the lands near Constantinople, Sofia, Thessa are good merc recruiting grounds. Mercs were used to repel the invaders and then disbanded.
Took the opportunity to capture Iraklion, long thought by the Roman Emperor as a thorn in the Empire's back. This was mandatory as one of my key tactic was developing and maintaining complete naval supremacy in the eastern Med. and Crete provides spotting and later a powerful naval base.
Obviously, the Pope went nuts on me because I dared challenge his beloved venetians and since those times, I've never had him better than 'abysmal' and 'terrible'.
The venetians occasionally kept sending troops into my lands but were repelled swiftly by Byz mounted warriors pouring from Sofia. Many battles were fought at sea but the Byzantine superiority was overwhelming - stacks of 5-6 powerful fireships sunk everything in sight that had the hated red venetian flag up.
Watchtowers were errected all over the Empire and especially on shores/islands so nobody could sneak any ship past my navy.
4. Relations with the Turks are generally very bad but no military actions took place (80+ turns). It is maybe the Turks have a deep respect for the military superpower ('supreme') and economic powerhouse the Empire has become.
5. Byzantines had in mind to acquire real estate in Palestine and Lebannon but this had to come earlier than expected because the enemy of the true faith (venetians that is) crusaded and took Jerusalem and managed to carve a little Latin Kingdom there by annexing Jeddah as well.
So, a mighty fleet carrying the Emperor himself with a large host of the most combat seasoned greek troops set sail to Antioch (rebel at that time) - think it as an Orthodox Crusade :)
The Emperor captured Antioch but the presence of so many Christian forces in the Middle East upset the Egyptians eventually who chose to declare war on...Byzantines, obviously instead of Venetians :)
Long anticipating this treachery, the Emperor ordered the castle from Cyprus to draft as many troops as possible to support the mid east effort. Aided by reinforcements from Cyprus, the Greeks quickly seized the town of Damascus and the fortress of Acre. Jerusalem, held by the most fierce enemy of the empire - Venetians - was in Emperor's grasp.
Preparations were made and the Holy City fell to the Greeks in one swift assault. Jerusalem, as an oddity, was ordered to build taverns, inns and was to become the main spies and assassins training center of the Empire.
The rich lands in the Mid East were in the hands of greek merchants and this, together with an unseen economic and cultural development across the Empire, made the Greeks the most wealthy power in the game.
The next steps were obvious - Egyptians lost Gaza to a land assault and Alexandria and Cairo to amphib assault. The last remaining city (down south of Cairo) was taken eventually and Egyptians entered history :)
The same fate awaited the remnants of the Latin venetian Kingom in Jeddah. following the loss of their Mid East holdings, crushed at sea by huge stacks (8-10 ships per stack) of XP-ed byzantine ships, having their very home port of Venice blockaded, being attacked by other catholic factions as well, the Venetians sued for peace (75+ turns of war took a heavy toll on them). The Emperor graciously agreed in exchange for the city of Durazzo, which the Venetians agreed to cede. The peace would last for 3-4 turns, Venetians resuming their aggressive actions by blockading a port with some ships quickly destroyed by the greeks. Kinda odd behaviour I may say...

Sicily tried some moves against the empire , mainly at sea but were retaliated brutally - they lost a lot of ships and the castle of Tripoli, a clear indication that if you mess with the bull, you'll get the horns...
I feel like, any western power, if they got the chance, will try to do something ill to the Greeks...keeping good relations with them seems an Utopia at this stage.

Meanwhile, the long term greek strategy paid off...Mongols invaded near Tbilisi and the Turks quickly found themselves involved in an unexpected war with an enemy that knows no mercy...
Surprisingly, the Mongols , for several turns now, were unable to seize any of the Turkish or rebel settlements in the East, laying sieges and eventually lifting them for no apparent reason...So they decided to head north, to the vast steppes of Ukraine and Russia. This fits my plans because now I can take on the Turks, who already have outlived their purpose :)
As for the Mongols...I killed some of their commanders (the Big Bad Khan included) just for fun...and they will soon come across Novgorod and Poland, which should keep them busy for a while.

As the game has played out till now, I have extremely good chances to win following this strategy. I dunno though, if I try the same strategy again, if the Turks will remain so passive. I have this strong feeling that if you leave certain provinces alone (Adana, Trebizond and cities in the eastern mountains) they don;t think you as the no#1 priority...

I found the most useful unit while playing as Byzantium to be,
Byzantine Cavalary and Trebizond Archers.

The reason is that they are not that expensive for what you get. Byzantine cavalry is capable for taking out archer units, and for riding around and en-circling the enemy's melee units. For my infanty-line i use a mix of Spearmen and Byzantine Infantry.
Trebizond archers are also very useful because they are inexpensive, and can be utilized as 'melee' units when the situation is getting a bit desperate.

Usually my byzantine army would be as follows.


H/A H/A H/A H/A H/A H/A

A A A A
S S S S S S

General (and two units of Byzantine infantry/ or Cav)

I am new to MTW2 but since I got the game I have played 4-5 campaign games as the Byzantines up to ~1250-1300AD.
I followed several suggestions from this forum with very good results up until the Mongols arrive.
In every campaign game I have played the Mongols have proven to be unbeatable and they have crushed all the armies I have sent against them.
I should mention that I mostly auto resolve battles (takes too long on my computer and I am still horrible at it).
I have tried various diplomatic and military strategies to avoid becoming their target but they have all failed. (I have given border regions to the Pope and HRE hoping the Mongols would go for them and leave me alone, have built castles with archers and missile cavalry and spearmen, etc.) I suspect they are programmed to attack the strongest faction or the faction with the most regions and that usually happens to be Byzantium in my games.

I was looking for any suggestions from the veterans how do best deal with the Mongols in auto resolve mode?

I have used one of the cheats to add money and was able to beat them back but I had to stack 3-4 armies with good generals against one of theirs in every battle.

(I have not gotten as far as the Timurids but I hate to even think about that).

Autoresolving battles with Mongols can prove to be very costly, but if you DO choose to do so, do it with overwhelming numbers of cheap trash troops (think acrher/spear/Cavlry militia) at a ratio of at least 4:1. Expect to lose all that trash but make a sizable dent in mongol stacks. Use your top quality troops at sieges, bridges and (even better) unbridged river crossings. All that Mongol heavy cavalry amounts to little more than horsemeat if caught by Varangians in the middle of the river.