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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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Originally Posted by Orb
There is a fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam on this. Christian texts directly condemn the LRA's actions. Islamic ones don't, to my knowledge condemn such actions.
Well as usual you could "interpret" the Quran in many different ways. Because it's overly poëtic, there are words with more meanings,... So it's not so surprising that there are some different interpretations on some elements,...
However most interpretations of extremists and terrorists are quite idiot. The only problem is that a large part of the population in certain countries, don't hear much else than extremistic ideas, usually have bad education and almost no sense of thinking for themselves,... (I don't mean to insult muslims, it's just that certain regions in the middle east, especially the little remote villages in a lot of areas are just way behind and still live in old times.) The fact that the Quran isn't the simpelest of literature doesn't help much.
Ofcourse certain things are unexceptable. Things that date from the 6th century and aren't appliccable. I mean killing a man there wasn't even seen as a bad thing, if you fought him fair and square. Running of with his goods afterwards neither. Then having multiple women, well not sure if that's really so morally unexceptable (the man who's so stupid to marry 4 women, will only have to pay for it in the ned, yes the first fe years might be heaven. But when them babies come and when the women get higher expectations, more to complain about...) wasn't that illogic either. There just were more femalse than males. so in the end in ain't so bad for those women who else who'd have lived alone for the rest of their lives fighting for survival (except for perhaps those few rich ones.)
Yes you could say that the Quran says you can beat your woman. But it did say only with a small stick (about the size of toothbrush, it was also used as one), which you could interpret litterally. But lets be honest, we all know it means.
If we look at the bible, we can find many things that can be interpreted differently and are unexceptable these days. (I'm not only talking about what the romans did, tough ofcourse I would find crucifictions morally unexceptable.) Most if not all religions have this, because mostky they don't change that much over time, while people and civilizations do.
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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If we look at the bible, we can find many things that can be interpreted differently and are unexceptable these days. (I'm not only talking about what the romans did, tough ofcourse I would find crucifictions morally unexceptable.) Most if not all religions have this, because mostky they don't change that much over time, while people and civilizations do.
Find me stuff like this in the new testament
Does Jesus say and do things like this?
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abari VIII:122/Ishaq:515 "The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, 'Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him." Bukhari:V4B54N487 "The Prophet said, 'The Hell Fire is 69 times hotter than ordinary worldly fires.' So someone said, 'Allah’s Apostle, wouldn't this ordinary fire have been sufficient to torture non-Muslims?'"
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Ishaq: 676 "'You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?' Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, 'Will no one rid me of this woman?' Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, 'You have helped Allah and His Apostle.' Umayr said, 'She had five sons; should I feel guilty?' 'No,' the Prophet answered. 'Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.'"
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Tabari VII:101 "They asked the Prophet for permission to kill Sallam. He granted it." Tabari VII:99 "When they got to Khaybar they went to Sallam’s house by night, having locked every door in the settlement on the inhabitants. He was in an upper chamber. His wife came out and asked who we were. We told her that we were Arabs in search of supplies. She told us that her husband was in bed. We entered and bolted his door. His wife shrieked and warned him of us, so we ran at him with our swords as he lay on his bed. When we had smitten him Abdallah bore down his sword into his belly until it went right through him. 'By the God of the Jews, he is dead!' Never have I heard sweeter words than those. We returned to Allah’s Apostle and told him that we had killed his enemy. We disputed before him as to who had killed him, each of us laying claim to the deed. Muhammad demanded to see our swords and when he looked at them he said, 'It is the sword of Abdallah that killed him; I can see traces of food on it.'"
Would you like some more?
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
:laugh4: :laugh4: Hey Gawain are you doing your cutand pastes from "prophet of doom /mohammed as a terrorist in his own words" by any chance .
Is that why you don't want to provide a link to your "evidence":laugh4: :beam: :beam: :beam:
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
:laugh4: :laugh4: Hey Gawain are you doing your cutand pastes from "prophet of doom /mohammed as a terrorist in his own words" by any chance .
Is that why you don't want to provide a link to your "evidence":laugh4: :beam: :beam: :beam:
My question would be that if of primary source material, with translations not slanted, then why would the source matter so much? I may take a quote from Abraham Lincoln that happens to be published on some white supremacist retards web site, but does that make the quote incorrect if cited from primary source?
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
Even in non-primary source material. If a fat man fan club end up publishing intelligent articles by its members on proper diet that proves true, why is the source important? Aren't you of the school that doesn't demote arguments made by global warming proponents and others who care little or seek to excuse their own contributions to their thesis of problems. Is this a two way street of source hypocrisy, a one way street to Tribesland or is it that material should be considered of its own validity regardless of source.
An honest question.
And sorry for the double post, I thought I hit edit when I indeed hit quote....
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
The only thing that can be questioned here are the translations. Find contrary ones.
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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My question would be that if of primary source material, with translations not slanted, then why would the source matter so much? I may take a quote from Abraham Lincoln that happens to be published on some white supremacist retards web site, but does that make the quote incorrect if cited from primary source?
The problem is translations themselves Shades , what is the official view on translated Korans ?
What is their standing within Islam ?
There is a good site for translated hadiths , it generally gives between 5-9different translations into english for each verse , all taken from the same primary source .
Which one would be right and what fun you could have by mixing and matching those that you wanted to use .
After all they would all be cited from the same source so they would all be OK right ?:inquisitive:
edit ..awwwww come on Gawain don't be shy , provide the link to your "evidence"
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
Does anyone here deny that Mohamed advocated killing people? That he attacked Caravans? Case closed. Very peaceful man he was............NOT
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
With these particular translations or in fact the Koran in total is the audience or purpose of what is being spoke, contectual environment, as important to meaning as it is in understanding the Bible. Like so many who spew biblical phrases and say "Jesus said this" and "Jesus said that" but fail to realize his audience or that he's quoting Jewish law or things like this.
It would be fascinating for me personally to see if this likewise exist with the Koran and thereby part of the problem when tryiing to read Islam as a religion of peace.
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
The passage speaks of the eye for an eye and antonement, and it provides for a oral tradition translation of the passage that would indicate that in the Torah the passage was one of atonement and possibily restitution. Which would go to proving one of your points.
But the passage from the torah does not prove that Lex Talionis has in its meaning the concept of restitution. So you still haven't provided proof that the base meaning of the term you decided to use has anything to restitution. Every source I find - plus that of my memory from my days in school - indicates just what I have already stated about the concept of Lex Talionis.
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
Read into the cite used by Gawain regarding the early events of the founding of Islam and of the prophet. The site is pro-Hindu and vehemently anti-Islam. The article cited by Gawain does note some excellent sources including the commentaries of Ali as well as the biographies of Muhammad by Rodinson (French Marxist Scholar) and by Lings (heaviest use of near-contemporaneous sources). Regrettably, the piece does not note which point is drawn from what source nor the extent to which they've been edited. A quick review of these sources suggests that Lings' bio would probably be the best resource for evaluating the good/evil etc. of the prophet.
Gawain, thanks!
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
What I don't quite get is why Gawain tries to present the Prophet as some sort of murderous lunatic (not counting his glaringly obvious bias that is). The man never did anything unusual for an ancient warlord - an occupation that rarely allows for excessive qualms. AFAIK he didn't do anything spectacularly sanguinary either (say, something comparable to Basil II the Bulgar-Slayer or some similarly infamous warlord). Of course, being a religious preacher, he also needed to account for all that in his teachings, and in a manner that made sense to his contemporaries, especially in the cases when expediancy necessitated the breaking of the "Rules of War" generally observed in Southern Arabia at the time. Nobody takes that kind of prestige hit lightly after all.
And his constant yapping about Mohammed not being a pacifist is a strawman pure and simple, as AFAIK nobody ever claimed he was - and would be hard pressed indeed to. It should be obvious enough the man came more from the older and rather straightforward Old Testament part of the Abrahamic tradition than this newfangled Christianity thing, whose pacifistic parts (ill observed by most Christians in practice anyway) probably made little sense to most inhabitants of the poly-religion Arabia anyway.
Buddha incidentally did the whole pacifism thing earlier anyway. Didn't keep Buddhists from cheerful organised bloodletting either, naturally.
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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Read into the cite used by Gawain regarding the early events of the founding of Islam and of the prophet. The site is pro-Hindu and vehemently anti-Islam.
So that would be described as a really really biased hate site then would it .
Is that why Gawain was so reluctant to show where he read his "evidence" from .
BTW them extremist hindus who are vehemently anti islam , they go round killing people and burning down mosques and churches in the name of their religeon don't they . Much like those crazy Indian baptists who burn down mosques and temples to convert people to the true path
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The article cited by Gawain does note some excellent sources including the commentaries of Ali as well as the biographies of Muhammad by Rodinson (French Marxist Scholar) and by Lings (heaviest use of near-contemporaneous sources). Regrettably, the piece does not note which point is drawn from what source nor the extent to which they've been edited. A quick review of these sources suggests that Lings' bio would probably be the best resource for evaluating the good/evil etc. of the prophet.
That Max Rodinson source , would that be edited very very heavily or is it more of a case of selective ommission ?
I don't suppose there would be much chance that it quoted him saying it is only through mistranslation and misinterpretation that the koran can be said to support terrorism and murder ?
That wouldn't really fit their agenda would it :no:
Gawain you surpass yourself yet again :dizzy2:
Stick to Rush and O'Reilly:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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So that would be described as a really really biased hate site then would it .
No it would not. If it gives facts . Maybe they have good cause to oppose Islam. Try debating the facts instead of the source for once. Youve already been called out on this.
I ask once more do you deny that he attacked caravans and had people murdered? That he promoted war and death?
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Is that why Gawain was so reluctant to show where he read his "evidence" from .
I wasnt reluctant I just decided to play your little game with you. You always tell me to find out for myslef. Besides only three quotes I gave you came from that site. Seems you have more work ahead of you.
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BTW them extremist hindus who are vehemently anti islam , they go round killing people and burning down mosques and churches in the name of their religeon don't they . Much like those crazy Indian baptists who burn down mosques and temples to convert people to the true path
Yes there are. But no where near as many. There are wack jobs in every religion.
But is there a major hindu sect set on conquering the world?
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Gawain you surpass yourself yet again
Stick to Rush and O'Reilly
Thanks same to you. Your insults never cease.
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
But is there a major hindu sect set on conquering the world?
Would you care to show me a major Muslim sect intent on conquering the world ? And al-Qaeda doesn't count for reasons that should be blatantly obvious.
Plus Hinduism isn't a proselytizing "universal truth" religion anyway. It has always been rather introverted and focused on purely its own adherents and territory - which of course has not kept Hindus from the occasional campaign of external conquest.
Sort of makes the whole comparision moot.
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
Go on then , post a link to it .
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Try debating the facts instead of the source for once.
a fact , what you mean like the quote from the expert your source of "evidence" didn't want to use ....it is only through mistranslation and misinterpretation that the koran can be said to support terrorism and murder ..... hey if he is the expert they cite as their source then that must be a fact since he wrote it , doesn't quite fit with their bias though does it .
Do they include it on their site ?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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Would you care to show me a major Muslim sect intent on conquering the world ? And al-Qaeda doesn't count for reasons that should be blatantly obvious.
I knew someone would go there. Come on comparing Hindu terrorist to Muslim ones as if their some how as dangerous? Be real.
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Go on then , post a link to it .
He told you the site , Do I have to do everything for you know? :laugh4:
Not only that I gave you quotes with their sources. You claim their bad translations. Well then come up with better or contrary ones and we can continue this discussion in a reasonable manner.
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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Come on comparing Hindu terrorist to Muslim ones as if their some how as dangerous? Be real.
:dizzy2: first you write off Jewish terrorits , now you write off Hindu terrorists. a terrorist is a terrorist , even those Christian ones you dismiss, they are just as dangerous as each other and kill people in the name of their "faith" .
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He told you the site
Nope he told me you hadn't sent him the link you said you had :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
then he wrote here that it was a hindu anti islamic site , which maybe narrows it down to one of the multitude of Bajrand Dal ones (as opposed to the Christian Identity one that someone else recently cut and pasted from but wouldn't provide a link) .
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You claim their bad translations. Well then come up with better or contrary ones and we can continue this discussion in a reasonable manner.
Errrr....nope , I said there are many translations available and pointed out the official islamic status of any translation , then I quoted the expert your source apparenly uses saying that what you have claimed is a result of mistranslation or mis interpretation .
Shall I repeat Rodinson in case you couldn't read it....it is only through mistranslation and misinterpretation that the koran can be said to support terrorism and murder .. apparently he was an expert who didn't like religeons , even his own Jewish one , so he should be pretty unbiased , he wrote a lot of books on Islam so maybe he should know something about it.:yes:
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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first you write off Jewish terrorits , now you write off Hindu terrorists. a terrorist is a terrorist , even those Christian ones you dismiss, they are just as dangerous as each other and kill people in the name of their "faith" .
They are equally dangerous in that they are deluded and kill people. However there is little comparison in scope.
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Nope he told me you hadn't sent him the link you said you had
Well even if he didnt he gave you more than enuff info for a man with your intellect to go find it. How many times have you sent me looking for links to your posts?
I can find it with one google from quotes I gave here.
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Errrr....nope , I said there are many translations available and pointed out the official islamic status of any translation , then I quoted the expert your source apparenly uses saying that what you have claimed is a result of mistranslation or mis interpretation .
Again find me one contrary one. And again Ive argued this with Muslims at TWC for weeks and none of them deny these things. They say Mohamed was at war what do you expect. They give excuses for it.
Again do you deny he had people killed?
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
I knew someone would go there. Come on comparing Hindu terrorist to Muslim ones as if their some how as dangerous? Be real.
Dangerous to who ? Hindu ultras are plenty dangerous enough if you have the bad fortune to be on their hit list and living down there.
But I guess it doesn't count cuz their victims are mostly rag-head nutty Muslims and not proper civilized Westerners, hmm ?
And in the case you haven't been reading the news, the Muslim ones seem to be most dangerous to other Muslims, usually those of a different confessional branch.
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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How many times have you sent me looking for links to your posts?
errrrr...when do cut and paste ?:inquisitive:
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But I guess it doesn't count cuz their victims are mostly rag-head nutty Muslims and not proper civilized Westerners, hmm ?
Don't forget the poor missionaries and their families , death to Christians and all that jazz , cheeky missionaries trying to spread their false faith , which is kinda sad really when you think what Hindus attitude to other faiths is supposed to be
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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Dangerous to who ?
The world and me in particular :laugh4:
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
I so like it when people base their worldview on practically relevant and sensible considerations.
You do realize that drunk drivers are a greater threat to the average Westerner by several order of magnitude than Islamist militants, right ?
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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You do realize that drunk drivers are a greater threat to the average Westerner by several order of magnitude than Islamist militants, right ?
To their lives yes. To their way of living no.
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errrrr...when do cut and paste ?
You wouldnt make it that easy for me. Your far more vague.
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
So that would be described as a really really biased hate site then would it .
Certainly. However, bias does not automatically equate with innacuracy.
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
Is that why Gawain was so reluctant to show where he read his "evidence" from.
Gawain has asked site info from you in the past without receiving it. Reciprocity is a basic human interaction tool.
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
That Max Rodinson source , would that be edited very very heavily or is it more of a case of selective ommission ?
Impossible to say given article format. Such transgressions could have occurred or it could be a very faithful recitation of the points made by Rodinson and Lings. The sources are referenced in a blanket footnote and no specific attributions by passage are provided save for the Koranic quotations.
My suggestion was to check the base material if you had questions as to the solidity of the scholarship presented.
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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You wouldnt make it that easy for me. Your far more vague.
No Gawain I tend to use my own words to say what I want to say as I want to say it .
Ah so it wasn't "prophet of doom" it was "prophet of terror"
Cheers Seamus
An American based Hindu nutjob no less .
Seamus , considering that the author claims that the work is composed of bits from lots of very serious and distinguished scholars work , don't you find the writing that is on the site very .....errrr...unscholarly , amaturish and quite frankly crap ?
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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No Gawain I tend to use my own words to say what I want to say as I want to say it .
But you get them from some where dont you. I ask you where and you tell me to go find out for myself and then give me some vague clue.
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Ah so it wasn't "prophet of doom" it was "prophet of terror"
Actually there are quotes here from both and others. Now run along and do as Seamus and I suggested and check the source material. You have no excuse now.:laugh4:
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
Seamus , considering that the author claims that the work is composed of bits from lots of very serious and distinguished scholars work , don't you find the writing that is on the site very .....errrr...unscholarly , amaturish and quite frankly crap ?
I can't read any of the Hindu portions.
The quality of the English used isn't academic level by any means. However, I am willing to overlook that given the possibility that it is not the primary language of the site's writers.
I'm hoping to read the Lings' piece when I get a chance; reviews suggest it's good "storytelling" as well as solid history work.
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
To their lives yes. To their way of living no.
First time ever I hear of bin Laden and his ilk being great trend-setters and general influence on the "Western" way of life. :dizzy2:
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Re: Thousands run riot over religious insults
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First time ever I hear of bin Laden and his ilk being great trend-setters and general influence on the "Western" way of life.
Its his wish. I saw someone say all he really was bothered about was Israel. Well thats not so. He wants the world and the US #1 to convert to Islam. You people think its all rhetoric just like when Hamas says it wants the destruction of Israel.
And if you dont think has had more of an influence on us and our lives since 911 you must be living on a different planet.