Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

Heavy cavalry and frontal charges...perhaps not very historical, but today an enemy Seleucid General charged my Koinon Hellenon Phalangitais directly through the pikes...I lost over 40 men immediately (huge size, that makes 40 out of 242 men):dizzy2:.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...halangitai.gif vs. https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...d_hetairoi.gif

KH Phalangitai are a little cheaper then Pezhetairoi, but have also lower stats and very important lower morale. Of course they are the only phalanx unit available for KH, but they are inferior to all other medium Phalangitai and you need a level 4 MIC to recruit them. The AOR on the other hand is ok, Taras, Kyrene, Alexandria, Antiochia are strategical good positions.

IMO they are some of the best units that the KH have, but are suprisingly bad in comparison to the successors. Yes I know that KH is a Hoplitai faction and not a Phalangitai, but makimg the KH Phalangitai available at level 3 MIC wouldn't harm.:clown:

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

Wow, how many bodyguards did this general have? Were you playing on Medium?

Surprisingly swift to... DIE:skull:: Hoplitai Troglodutikes

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...a_hoplites.gif

First experience: One unit set to pin (but not assault) a Klerouchikon Agema phalanx, the other sent head-to-head with a thorakitai unit. Both on guard mode and not flanked. They got slaughtered down to less than half the original unit size even while every other unit in my army was hacking away at the enemy rear, two Sabaean generals among these - so in the end the enemy got routed but at a very unaccustomed price. Even Ekdromoi Hoplitai don't get butchered SO fast. Tell me the secret ingredient to make soldiers out of them... Or the proper tactic to use them. I feel badly frustrated - I was hoping for these guys to solve my problem of having no proper front-line survivor infantry in the Ethiopian area. Please don't say "...well, get Alexandreia and wait till you get a lvl 5 regional MIC there".


Even more swift to :skull:: Aithiopikoi Machairophoroi

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u..._swordsmen.gif

And they cost ~400minai upkeep... much more than peltasts and they seem to be simply --- un-capable. Is their only possible use charging three units of them simultaneously into the rear of ONE phalanx and hoping the phalanx routs within the first five seconds (before all of these guys are dead)? I am slightly exaggerating, but it was really bad - a unit of them got ripped to shreds on a wall by a quarter unit of peltasts... Had to back them up with a unit of

Great steam-rollers against anything not pointing pikes at them: Giusim Aravim 'im Garzenim

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...sea_axemen.gif

I really like these guys; the problem is that you don't get them outsike of Arabia...

To defend the Hoplitai Troglodutikes:

As their description says, they're meant to chase and fight light units from skirmishers to maximum Peltastai. Their use is similar to the one of the Ekdromoi Hoplitai.

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Originally Posted by SwissBarbar

Wow, how many bodyguards did this general have? Were you playing on Medium?

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It was a young General, so about 70-80 bodyguards. I play on M/M so no crazy bonuses, but they had a higher ground advantage. Normally (on even grounds) only a few horsemen get through the pikes, the AI seldomly makes frontalcharges, it normally walks slowly in the phalanx. I thought this would happen again, but this time the AI was 'smarter'. I also underestimate the higher ground bonus...damn 40 men in one sec!? But it looked awesome.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

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Originally Posted by Raygereio

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ilan_agema.gif

Taxilan Agema; I tried them in my current Baktria game and if they aren't bad, then I just don't now how to use them. I was expection some hidden gem of heavy cavalry considering their price, but to me they're just medium armoured skirmishers.
I tried using them like heavy cavalry, but they have no charge to speak of and in actual melee they die so fast it is humiliating realising how much money I just threw away (Note; I play medium difficulty battles).
The only way I found I could use them effectively is by using them as skirmishers, throwing javalins and harassing enemy skirmishers. But there are many more cheaper options available for that.

It kinda sad; I really like the way they look.

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Oh God, I wasted so much money getting these guys, back when I didn't look at stats and traits (fast moving, etc). Sent a bunch of these poor bastards to India with my phalangite-based army and was surprised when the only survivors of that battle were my two family members. Literally. Two people survived.

:gah:

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Originally Posted by Zett

Heavy cavalry and frontal charges...perhaps not very historical, but today an enemy Seleucid General charged my Koinon Hellenon Phalangitais directly through the pikes...I lost over 40 men immediately (huge size, that makes 40 out of 242 men):dizzy2:.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...halangitai.gif vs. https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...d_hetairoi.gif


IMO they are some of the best units that the KH have, but are suprisingly bad in comparison to the successors. Yes I know that KH is a Hoplitai faction and not a Phalangitai, but makimg the KH Phalangitai available at level 3 MIC wouldn't harm.:clown:

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

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It wouldnt harm if they were recruitable without the romans building a huge city in italy... :juggle2::juggle2:

about Taxilan Agema, I have not used them, but I do know from my Lusotanan game (their family members are very similar) that you should use sword armed cavalry for: skirmishing, fighting lance armed cavalry and chasing routers. Do not try charging infantry.

But considering the other options in the area, they probably aren't that good.

Yes, they're not bad themselves, but the point is that their price is a bit high.

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Originally Posted by seienchin

It wouldnt harm if they were recruitable without the romans building a huge city in italy... :juggle2::juggle2:

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True; actually I wouldn't be surprised to find historical reference to the KH (or rather, "parts of southern Greece") using at least some pikemen even around the starting date of EB. I mean, Korinthos had a garrison of them, right? So what happens if it is liberated from Makedonia...? But gameplay-wise, the KH would be too easy if you had them from the start. Same reason for which you don't get Hoplitai @lvl1 MIC as KH (where they are available, considering the KH really represents independent cities, they would defend their homes immediately after being liberated from other powers)...

To get phalangitai without MOT, >>MAKE A BACKUP FIRST<<
You can mod the files... Need to edit "export_descr_buildings.txt" @ "D:\Games\RTW\EB\Data" (or wherever you have your game); edit the two lines where it says "and march of time" - just delete the last part, thus removing the condition but leaving the rest of those lines un-changed.

I don't know why it's two lines for one unit, but apart from that the file's entries are pretty much self-explanatory. I changed both lines (because I made a point of aiding the Hellenes in Megale Hellas early on, thus making it necessary to sack rome, Capua, Ariminum to avoid a red flood) and it worked just fine. You still need a high MIC for them though. So given the insane growth rate of AI controlled settlements, you don't get them much earlier by removing the MOT condition without power-gaming.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...aduganganz.gif

Really they look cool, but either they are to few in nmber or they die to fast. I know they arent line inf but more like cav, but nevertheless...

upload the image to your photo-album (here @ your user account), then open it here, then rclick and "copy image url", THEN paste this into the "add image" dialog. The forum won't display images stored on your local HDD. ;P

*EDIT* ok, issue solved, admins, please delete this post or tell me how to do this myself... */EDIT*

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Originally Posted by Nachtmeister

To get phalangitai without MOT, >>MAKE A BACKUP FIRST<<
You can mod the files... Need to edit "export_descr_buildings.txt" @ "D:\Games\RTW\EB\Data" (or wherever you have your game); edit the two lines where it says "and march of time" - just delete the last part, thus removing the condition but leaving the rest of those lines un-changed.

I don't know why it's two lines for one unit, but apart from that the file's entries are pretty much self-explanatory. I changed both lines (because I made a point of aiding the Hellenes in Megale Hellas early on, thus making it necessary to sack rome, Capua, Ariminum to avoid a red flood) and it worked just fine. You still need a high MIC for them though. So given the insane growth rate of AI controlled settlements, you don't get them much earlier by removing the MOT condition without power-gaming.

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It's one line for every region and for every MIC level in which you can recruit the unit. So for KH Phalangitai, which are recruitable in 13 provinces and are availabel in MIC level 4 and 5, that makes 26 lines.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Originally Posted by Zett

To make the Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai recruitable go to the "export_descr_buildings" file in your EB/data and search for "hellenistic infantry koinon phalangitai", then delete the "and marian_reforms" at the end of the line. You have to delete it for every "hellenistic infantry koinon phalangitai" entry. That makes at all 26 "and marian_reforms" you have to delete.

!BUT FIRST! make a BackUp of the file:whip:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img518.imageshack.us/img518/...bitmap3qc5.png
https://img518.imageshack.us/img518/...ng/1/w1280.png

IIRC its savegame compatible.

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@topic:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...uirodusios.gif
I think the naked skirmishers, at least the celtic ones, are quite good against infantery and calvalery. Never used them myself, but fought sometimes against them. They are capable to hold a line and even break through the enemy (in this case my) lines sometimes.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

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Originally Posted by ziegenpeter

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...aduganganz.gif

Really they look cool, but either they are to few in number or they die to fast. I know they aren't line inf but more like cav, but nevertheless...

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They just aren't meant to actually fight, have them wait behind your line infantry, throw a few few javelins and intimidate the enemy. That being said there are better/cheaper ways to get the same or an even better result.

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Originally Posted by Tolg

They just aren't meant to actually fight, have them wait behind your line infantry, throw a few few javelins and intimidate the enemy. That being said there are better/cheaper ways to get the same or an even better result.

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Yep. To me they appear like fewer, more expensive uirodusios(sp?)

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Originally Posted by Tolg

They just aren't meant to actually fight, have them wait behind your line infantry, throw a few few javelins and intimidate the enemy. That being said there are better/cheaper ways to get the same or an even better result.

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But this would be unhistorical right?
Who would be scared of naked men when they were hiding behind the ones wearing armour? I always use them as flanking troops in close combat.

Well historically, they were used at night, and I'm not sure if it gives them a bonus.

Ekdromoi Hoplitai are proving enormously valuable in my KH campaign. They stand up pretty well on the flanks of the line. And Ligurian infantry are even better, too bad they're only recruitable in one region.

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Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

Well historically, they were used at night, and I'm not sure if it gives them a bonus.

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Sorry I was talking about the similar celtic ones, who fight at day.

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Originally Posted by Legio Caesar

The Dacian archers are not half bad, either!

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VERRI BAD AND SEKRET, U SAYS SO, I SAYS TEH OPPOSITE, MMKAY?

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Originally Posted by Soulghast

VERRI BAD AND SEKRET, U SAYS SO, I SAYS TEH OPPOSITE, MMKAY?

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I think the same way, but please ... even if posting is some kind of art, I dislike this kind of expressionism.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

I just found out that...ACCENSI are a wonderful unit for Romani at the start of the game - especially when used against heavy troops they are quite efficient, plus they are cheap and readily available in Italia. Accensi are definitely a :2thumbsup: for me!

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Originally Posted by delablake

I just found out that...ACCENSI are a wonderful unit for Romani at the start of the game - especially when used against heavy troops they are quite efficient, plus they are cheap and readily available in Italia. Accensi are definitely a :2thumbsup: for me!

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Yeah, Accensi are the weakest slingers ingame but also definitely the cheapest. It's a pity the Romani can't recruit factional Balearic slingers though... but then again this would make them even more overpowered.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Yeah, Accensi are the weakest slingers ingame but also definitely the cheapest. It's a pity the Romani can't recruit factional Balearic slingers though... but then again this would make them even more overpowered.

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But their are always like 5 units of Mercenaries on the baleares itself and you can also get them in northafrica, gaul and spain so Romans have acces to them and of course they can get cretan archers. :dizzy2:
But phalanxes are the better fighters compared to legions.

Accensi are especially good once they get some experience that will also increase their attack (first point doubles it!). Once they reach gold chevrons, they will be scoring more kills per battle than your Extraordinarii.

Also you can get some Numidian and Celtic slingers who with enough chevrons can double for the lack of Balearic or Rhodian ones.

It's a bit unrealistic though that ranged unit damage increases with experience, only their accuracy should rise. This one should get corrected in EB2.

well they aim better. An unexperienced slinger shoots his stone towards you, hoping that one of the stones of his unit hits you, while the experienced one aims for your left nipple and pierces your heart :laugh4:

Accensi are a bugger to fit into a Roman Battle line if you try and form up in a semi-historical formation, though.

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Originally Posted by SwissBarbar

well they aim better. An unexperienced slinger shoots his stone towards you, hoping that one of the stones of his unit hits you, while the experienced one aims for your left nipple and pierces your heart :laugh4:

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It pierces your heart and kills the man behind you as well.

My good unit:
Thessalian horseman. Easy to get as mercs. Curepos, great stamina plus cheap. Thoriakitai, sort of a jack of all trade.

My bad unit:
Elite African Pikeman, utterly no match for argyraspides and Armenian cataphract horse archer, too expensive but vulnerable to other heavy calvary or light horse archers.

I am finding that I love this unit. I had a remarkably terrible general and these tough guys held the line whilst said FM was pissing himself.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...e_eranshar.gif

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Originally Posted by strategos roma

My bad unit:
Elite African Pikeman, utterly no match for argyraspides and Armenian cataphract horse archer, too expensive but vulnerable to other heavy calvary or light horse archers.

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Actually Africans are the only Phalanx I've respect for, no problems breaking Agryaspides/Ptol. Agema/Epeirote Agema with a frontal charge of my cataphracts (although of course I don't want to suffer unnecessary casualties and thus usually charge their backs) Africans are a different story though.
Then again, that's against cavalry, I don't use elite phalanx, so I can't really judge how they fare against their own kin.


And Armenian catas are - though somewhat expensive - just as good as the parthian ones making them one of the best units in the game. It is however a huge drawback that they're only recruitable in the Caucasus. Mountains are the realm of foot archers, not that of HAs.

Gaesatae. They are the best heavy infantry in game. They literally hack through their opponents like flies, no matter who they are.
P.S. Can they be recruited as mercenaries and if so where?

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Originally Posted by strategos roma

Gaesatae. They are the best heavy infantry in game. They literally hack through their opponents like flies, no matter who they are.
P.S. Can they be recruited as mercenaries and if so where?

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This is surprising?

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Originally Posted by strategos roma

P.S. Can they be recruited as mercenaries and if so where?

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You can recruit mercenary Tindanotae (Galatian Gaesatae) around Asia Minor. Gaesatae themselves are not available for hire.

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Originally Posted by ziegenpeter

Yep. To me they appear like fewer, more expensive uirodusios(sp?)

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you better of recruiting celtic naked spearmen, wich cost about two time less and does the same thing

Hey guys, i've been playing EB for a year or so now, and lurking here for a while - thought i'd finally make an effort and post :laugh4:

Anyway my €0.02 on surprising units:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...s_hoplitai.gif

Hoplitai Haploi: These guys have saved me so many times in sieges - great for blocking off streets - as long as they don't get flanked they can last a long, long time


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u..._prodromoi.gif

Found the Prodromoi (both hellenic and thracian) to be incredibly versatile in battle - great stamina and speed and can also deliver some damn good charges too

Gonna have to think about some other choices...

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...medininkas.gif

Baltic Frontiersmen. Being archer-spearmen, they have been mentioned before in this thread. So they are not entirely surprisingly good. What is surprising, however, is that they are the best archer-spearmen in the game! (I've checked the EDU) They have the second best range (187) of all available archer-spearmen, the highest morale and the best melee attack and defense skill. And of course I have found them to be reliable on the battlefield. Definitely the best choice for a Swêboz player who needs some archers.

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Originally Posted by Elcmar

Hey guys, i've been playing EB for a year or so now, and lurking here for a while - thought i'd finally make an effort and post :laugh4:

Anyway my €0.02 on surprising units:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...s_hoplitai.gif

Hoplitai Haploi: These guys have saved me so many times in sieges - great for blocking off streets - as long as they don't get flanked they can last a long, long time


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u..._prodromoi.gif

Found the Prodromoi (both hellenic and thracian) to be incredibly versatile in battle - great stamina and speed and can also deliver some damn good charges too

Gonna have to think about some other choices...

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I agree on the Hoplitai Haploi, they are probably one of the best levy units in the game, but man the Podromoi are surprisingly rubbish compared to what their stats show. They have 13 Armour, but die faster than any cavallery I know in EB. Whenever they charge they loose like 3-5 men and despite beeing really fast they loose cavallery vs cavallery atacks...
I use them too really often and they are good at beeing flanking charging cavallery, but compared to their stats they suck and they arent usefull fighting longer campains.

You shouldn't compare the Prodromoi's performance to their apparent stats, but to their upkeep cost. When you do that, they're really an excellent unit.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u..._peltastai.gif

Peltasts are cheap, quick , carry a few javelins and make excelent flanking infantry. I got a heroic victory agaisnt a full stack of macedonians at the start of a KH campaign due to these guys

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Originally Posted by seienchin

I agree on the Hoplitai Haploi, they are probably one of the best levy units in the game, but man the Podromoi are surprisingly rubbish compared to what their stats show. They have 13 Armour, but die faster than any cavallery I know in EB. Whenever they charge they loose like 3-5 men and despite beeing really fast they loose cavallery vs cavallery atacks...
I use them too really often and they are good at beeing flanking charging cavallery, but compared to their stats they suck and they arent usefull fighting longer campains.

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I suppose i never really stick them into a prolonged melee - i always use them for quick flank attacks, then run them away again - useful for that, and cheap enough too compared to other similar cavalry.

The hoplitai haploi are decent. I used them in early-game Epeiros when I created an Illyrian stack (4 hoplitai haploi, 2 phylectoi Illyrioi, 3 Illyrioi Hippeis, 1 Hippeis Tarantinoi, 2 akontistai). They served fairly well against the Illyrian soldiers in Dalminion.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...t_elephant.gif

These are good for killing romans.... mmm......:smash:

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Originally Posted by Jebivjetar

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...t_elephant.gif

These are good for killing romans.... mmm......:smash:

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agreed... but it's hardly surprising isn't it jebiveter?

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Originally Posted by anubis88

agreed... but it's hardly surprising isn't it jebiveter?

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They are as surprisingly good as getting kicked in the balls is surprisingly painful.

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Originally Posted by Rilder

They are as surprisingly good as getting kicked in the balls is surprisingly painful.

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Yeah, youre right. Anyway, once when ive foolishly send them on a unit of triari (i was so thirsty for some roman blood, and i could not resist) they did not win the battle... :oops:

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Originally Posted by Jebivjetar

Yeah, youre right. Anyway, once when ive foolishly send them on a unit of triari (i was so thirsty for some roman blood, and i could not resist) they did not win the battle... :oops:

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Yeah elephants can be a bit fragile at time, i still hate fighting them though, especially in the Indian cities!

The Ethiopian spearmen aren't half bad for defensive actions. However, I was disappointed with the elite rhomphaiaphoroi. Perhaps I wasn't using them right.

keep them away from missle fire, they're ur dedicated chopper guys. Very fine heavy infantry, just somewhat limited in tactical roles. Definatly more than their worth if u use them in the right situation tho.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ioi_taxeis.gif

I wasn't expecting wonders form these guys the first time i used them, but they've proved surprisingly resilient in hand to hand against most infantry and cavalry to the extent i usually have at least 3 or 4 in most of my AS levant area armies acting as line-pluggers/phalanx flank protectors.

Racist. :clown:

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Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

Racist. :clown:

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:laugh4: lol not why i wasn't expecting much - more their skirmisher kinda look - wasn't expecting them to be decent line pluggers too!

Hellenic spearmen are better and are cheaper and can be hired in the same places or right next to where you get them.

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Originally Posted by Sdragon

Hellenic spearmen are better and are cheaper and can be hired in the same places or right next to where you get them.

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I believe ioudai taxeis have like 25% more men and thus it entirely depends upon their role... More men = more javelins = more dead enemies per volley = faster enemy rout... For def purposes, I agree: thureophoroi are awesome.

Ioudaioi Taxeis and Pantodapoi/Machimoi Phalangitai make an excellent and fairly cheap combination in early campaign.

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Originally Posted by Sdragon

Hellenic spearmen are better and are cheaper and can be hired in the same places or right next to where you get them.

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Simply: NO!!
The Jews are better. They have more men, higher morale and higher range. :book:

and semitists/human rights watch would travel back in time to throw lawyers at our enemies if they do so much as laying a finger on them.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ai_komatai.gif
When I was running my Dacian campaing, the humble Komatai (Dacian Skirmisher) was the backbone of the force. Cheap, numerous, but above all surprisingly solid. I have a tendency for employing skirmishers in very aggressive manner, but of all the ones i've used, these have been the only ones that I can honestly say have never make me wish I'd invested in some 'proper' combat infantry (though the Getai certainly allow access to those too). Their missiles tended to have little impact but put them in a knife-fight and they did me proud.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...halangitai.gif
They're the cheapest and probably crappiest of the phalanx troops, and they certainly do get overmatched at times, but I find I rarely have reason to care. They're reliable, they can overpower many units by simple dint of wholly respectable stats and the basic strengths of the phalanx formation, and against the heaviest foes they do a sterling job holding on until I can surround the enemy. And I can keep my armies stacked with a goodly number for a reasonable price. I just dont see why I would pour masses of funds into buying 'better' phalanx troops who can do the job I need them for only marginally better than the humble Hellenic Native Phalanx.

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Originally Posted by seienchin

Simply: NO!!
The Jews are better. They have more men, higher morale and higher range. :book:

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Pretty sure they have less moral. Also more men don't help them, Hellenic Spearmen still rip through them despite being cheaper and come with a larger recruitment area.

Misunderstanding - I don't think anyone else meant "one on one" - but rather which works out better in which role when supporting a whole army...
Like I said, if you want to use them to kill phalangites in an envelopment move by throwing javelins, ioudai taxeis are better, but for a defensive, "hold-the-line"- role and vs. cavalry and any frontal against infantry, thureophoroi are far better.
Is it possible that the original reference to "hellenic spearmen" a few posts ago actually meant the "pantodapoi"?

Back on topic:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...s_hoplitai.gif

I have somehow managed to win some battles with these guys - but they die much too fast for hoplites. Calling them something like "crap" would go too far - but they are certainly not the "hold main battle line" troops suggested by the word "hoplitai"...

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Originally Posted by Sdragon

Hellenic spearmen are better and are cheaper and can be hired in the same places or right next to where you get them.

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I never said that the ioudai taxeis were the best option available for their tactical role - rather that i was pleasantly surprised when i did use them, and they tend to fit in rather well with my RP'ing with the AS. And are thureophoroi not more expensive than the ioudai taxeis?

This has maybe already been raised, but i think the missile units (Totoxi(?)) in particular, run a little too fast? It's almost impossible to catch them without the light cavalry, and then only just. Surely the heavy cavalry should have an easy job of chasing them down. Perhaps the speed of cavalry is too slow?

I don't remember if these guys were mentioned, but they are monsters when defending my walls... They almost always get the better of the Ptolemaic Thorakites. In my last siege, they killed 310 of the ptolemaic kleurichon agema and thorakitai. They fought to the last man, really got the job done
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...an_hillmen.gif

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Originally Posted by zarker

This has maybe already been raised, but i think the missile units (Totoxi(?)) in particular, run a little too fast? It's almost impossible to catch them without the light cavalry, and then only just. Surely the heavy cavalry should have an easy job of chasing them down. Perhaps the speed of cavalry is too slow?

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Maybe your cavalry unit was exhausted.:dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Sdragon

Pretty sure they have less moral. Also more men don't help them, Hellenic Spearmen still rip through them despite being cheaper and come with a larger recruitment area.

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EDIT:
Enough with just stats. Tested them and the Jews won with 80 Deaths to 90 Deaths plus rout on the hellene side.
The Ioudaoi taxeis are actually more expensive than the Thureporoi, but in Melee by far better!

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Originally Posted by seienchin

EDIT:
Enough with just stats. Tested them and the Jews won with 80 Deaths to 90 Deaths plus rout on the hellene side.
The Ioudaoi taxeis are actually more expensive than the Thureporoi, but in Melee by far better!

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Yeah just had a look there, the Ioudaoi taxeis are a bit more expensive :oops: The higher unit number also comes in handy for garrison duty, although in saying that i usually use Pantodapoi Phalangitai instead - cheaper, and a phalanx. Still loving the Ioudaoi taxeis as line-fillers - helping me win back the arche! :smash:

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Originally Posted by seienchin

EDIT:
Enough with just stats. Tested them and the Jews won with 80 Deaths to 90 Deaths plus rout on the hellene side.
The Ioudaoi taxeis are actually more expensive than the Thureporoi, but in Melee by far better!

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Yes - but your results are likely as they are because you had the AI play the thureophoroi and the AI NEVER uses def mode (not in my game anyway - even with classical hoplites)...
I'm having trouble imagining a unit of thureophoroi routing to ioudai taxeis when properly handled.

Suprised that they're good? No. Suprised they are that good? Oh yes!

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...n_kambojas.gif

The aforementioned Anatolian Hillmen are also wonderful. Cheap as chips and killers of all things armoured. Latest victims Klerouch Agema Phalangitai.

Also

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...akontistai.gif

Nor quite as good as curepos, but they do the job nicely.

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Originally Posted by Nachtmeister

Yes - but your results are likely as they are because you had the AI play the thureophoroi and the AI NEVER uses def mode (not in my game anyway - even with classical hoplites)...
I'm having trouble imagining a unit of thureophoroi routing to ioudai taxeis when properly handled.

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I let them fight AI vs Ai...
And Im not sure if its Darthmod, but something in my EB let some Units of the Ki have the Defense mode from the start of the battle so they had it. Anyway why should they win? they have two more Defense, same atack and less men. There is no way they can win... Thats why the Iodaioi Taxeis got more expensive in the newer EB Versions.

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Originally Posted by Apázlinemjó

Maybe your cavalry unit was exhausted.:dizzy2:

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I save the cavalry purely to counter the missile units. But they do generally get exhausted trying to catch them - the heavy cvl anyway. It's nice that routing units don't all get run down by them though, and more realistic that most of the casualties come from the actual fighting, not in the routing.

Interesting that one of the quotes in RTW is "The enemy is more hurt by desertion than by slaughter". Which kind of puts me in mind of Achilles being AWOL in the opening scenes of "Troy". :) I'm also thinking of the TV series ROME, where Pompey explains to Lucius that he lost the battle due to his unit routing and being wiped out. But as long as the enemy is decimated on the battlefield, who cares how it's achieved so long as it's entertaining.

Which makes me think - is it still a good tactic to flank an opposing army to try and get them to rout, or is it purely down to number of casualties now?

What do you mean, "now"?

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Originally Posted by seienchin

I let them fight AI vs Ai...
And Im not sure if its Darthmod, but something in my EB let some Units of the Ki have the Defense mode from the start of the battle so they had it. Anyway why should they win? they have two more Defense, same atack and less men. There is no way they can win... Thats why the Iodaioi Taxeis got more expensive in the newer EB Versions.

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In that case I must concede your point - and for multiplayer and autocalc, sure - my experience is limited to using thureophoroi myself against AI-controlled ioudai taxeis in the campaign... Where I usually manage to win :laugh4:
But then, I not only use def mode but I am also very careful to form a wide line formation with any units not trying to run-through or pin a phalanx, sacrificing depth for a bigger killing zone which has so far cancelled out the number advantage of the AI. Could have also been due to morale boost because of my generals' presence on the field; it was a one on one fight between the units on one of the flanks...
My experience with using ioudai taxeis myself is limited to my very short Ptolemaioi campaign and I have never used them against opposing thureophoroi in one on one.

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Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

What do you mean, "now"?

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Like - my previous strategy was to hold the enemy in a battle line, then try and scare them into routing by flanking them with cavalry or some other scarey units, then wipe them out as they routed. I've always worked like this in all TW games, even on hardest levels. But now the wiping out is done on the battle line itself, as they don't tend to rout very easily. But maybe because I haven't any scarey units atm, and judging by it's description, the light cavalry doesn't sound like it's very scarey either. But I've just progressed to chariots though haven't used the in a battle yet. Maybe they will do it?

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Originally Posted by zarker

I save the cavalry purely to counter the missile units. But they do generally get exhausted trying to catch them - the heavy cvl anyway. It's nice that routing units don't all get run down by them though, and more realistic that most of the casualties come from the actual fighting, not in the routing.

Interesting that one of the quotes in RTW is "The enemy is more hurt by desertion than by slaughter". Which kind of puts me in mind of Achilles being AWOL in the opening scenes of "Troy". :) I'm also thinking of the TV series ROME, where Pompey explains to Lucius that he lost the battle due to his unit routing and being wiped out. But as long as the enemy is decimated on the battlefield, who cares how it's achieved so long as it's entertaining.

Which makes me think - is it still a good tactic to flank an opposing army to try and get them to rout, or is it purely down to number of casualties now?

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Man something is wrong with your heavy cavalry or those missile troops. But a more efficient troop for that job would be heavy javelin-and-sword-cavalry than lancers. Lancers ar for making them rout. Swordbearers are for the killing. Hippeis xystophoroi have both :skull:
But they are not as fast as hippakontistai...
Regardless, the main goal in any battle where you intend to win is to make as many enemy units rout as fast as you can - and the main enemy casualties will come from routing if you have capable units for pursuit and get them into the rout-situation in a capable way.
Example:
You are fighting against Ptolemaioi with KH and have surrounded one unit of phalangites; you are pinning their front with a hoplitai unit on def and have a unit of peltastai run around them, throw all their javelins on them and then you have both units charge into them. The phalangites will rout and many-many of them will die instantly because your melee infantry (which is the best for killing routers except that it can not catch up with them) is already all over them. I don't know which of the def stats gets cancelled by routing and what sort of boost lethality gets, but the few phalangites that get out of that melee ball will be easy prey for any cavalry you might have.
If you have to instead kill them in melee (and from the front...) without routing them - well you would simply loose the engagement.

I think routing takes away all defense stats and gives the attacker of the unit 100% lethality. Frankly, any schlub can can hit a routing unit and kill it. Apeleutheroi have done it.


Zarkler, since I presume you're playing as the Casse, yes, it is fairly normal that it is main battle line that is central to your tactics. If you were playing as one of the Hellenistic or Eastern factions, you would be using armoured horsemen to rout them for then simply rely on your phalanx.

For chasing routers, I've seen a difference between lance armed vs. sword armed cavalry; guys with swords seem to do a lot better. I am not sure, but IIRC it has to do with the attack rate of their primary weapon.

With cavalry, swords generaly have better attack than lances, but worse charge and are often not armour piercing. Routing units seem to have worse defence than units not routing, so good attack is better than good charge or armour piercing when pursuing routers.

Or something like that.

Routing units require a single hit to bring them down. You simply need to catch them. All weapons against them have 100% lethality rates, but they often move to fast for them to register as hits.

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Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

Routing units require a single hit to bring them down. You simply need to catch them. All weapons against them have 100% lethality rates, but they often move to fast for them to register as hits.

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I've seen routers (especially when a unit is down to such low numbers that every man is critical for whether the unit will show up depleted on the campaign map after battle or be "gone") get beaten, fall, and stand up again - so I'd say 100% lethality is not what happens there (maybe also due to exhaustion of pursuing units).

I'm playing Sparta, and the heavy cavalry (generals) just cannot catch the foot missile units (totoxeii), no way. Light cav can catch them after a while, but have big probs killing them. The chariots are great at causing routs, catching and killing most units.

As far as routing an enemy line, I have big probs. Even when being attacked from all sides most armies I've faced so far just stand and fight until almost the last man, and mine are hardly touched.