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Honest question, why do you think is the case? They voted strongly Remain, they will have broke off from the UK for the explicit purposes of rejoining.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
Would it be along the lines of them receiving more than they give?
And how would you dismiss London, which was strongly remain?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
London was 60/40 remain with heavy floods markedly affecting voting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Or God was trying to make you stay. At home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
When they gave their word, they gave it to the UK within the EU. It is the UK changed the rules of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
Attachment 18597Quote:
Originally Posted by I of the Storm
Attachment 18598
Cities dont get independance votes and not all of london voted remain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Scotland would have to be a major contributor as the EU arent likely in the mood for taking any more defecits right now. Aside from that; Spain wont allow it, cant be seen to support secessionists while catalonia is still waiting thier turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief
Presenter: "The £350m a week we send to the EU, which we will no longer send to the EU. Can you guarantee that's going to go to the NHS?"
Farage: "No I can't, and I would have never made that claim. That was one of the mistakes that the Leave campaign made."
Presenter: "Hang on a moment. That was one of your adverts."
https://twitter.com/jrhopkin/status/746225648306294784
‘We send the EU £350 million a week
let’s fund our NHS instead. Vote Leave.’
http://leftfootforward.org/2016/05/b...u-350m-a-week/
...Why are they asking farage? Of course he cant guarentee, he's not in power.
Let's see what Boris Johnson does then. He was the one on that bus, and he's going to be the next PM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
Excuse me it was Boris's campaign (Vote Leave) that may or may not have said that, Farage was part of Grassroots Out, not Vote Leave and plus like greyblades said Farage isn't part of the Conservative Party.
Depends on how well the conservatives hold up after this blow, right now they are slated to split.Quote:
Let's see what Boris Johnson does then. He was the one on that bus, and he's going to be the next PM.
Who would be surprised if David Cameron's next Career path lead to him being the next president of the EU? It would be just as comical as it was when Tony Blair became the Middle East peace envoy. October is a long time away for a new prime minister and I think Article 50 should be enacted and Negotiations to start right away, because the longer we wait the more volatile our currency will be. And in the mean time Negotiations with Non-EU countries for trading should take place.
Sore Losers as we speak are signing a online petition to create a 2nd referendum Claiming we need a 75 percent turn out lol and 60 percent win lol these people are idiots. Funny because that was the highest ever turn out since WW2.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
Leaked Script of Labour's response to referendum result
Binding is an incredibly difficult word it seems
So what if Cameron leaves, and then you get new elections, and a party runs on the promise of ignoring the referendum and not invoking article 50 and then this party gets >50% of the vote? :clown:
No there would be civil war if that happened
Considering Juncker told us to piss off, I donts ee it happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
The Science community is worried:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...leave-the-e-u/
In what may become a popular refrain: "gov't will compensate for shortfalls"
Cornwall pleas for reassurance it will not be 'worse off' following Brexit voteQuote:
Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny
Cornwall can piss off. London money for Londoners only.Quote:
Cornwall has issued an urgent plea for reassurance that it will not be worse off following the Brexit vote.
The county has received a "significant amounts" of funding from the EU for the past 15 years due to its "relatively weak economy".
But, after 56.5% of voters in the county chose to leave the Union, the council says it is now seeking urgent reassurance that money allocated to it will still be received.
Prior to the vote the Council said they were told by the Leave campaign that funding would still be available.
They also said they had been told Cornwall "would not be worse off" in terms of investment they received.
Now that we know the UK will be leaving the EU we will be taking urgent steps to ensure that the UK Government protects Cornwall’s position in any negotiations.
We will be insisting that Cornwall receives investment equal to that provided by the EU programme which has averaged £60M per year over the last ten years.
– JOHN POLLARD, THE LEADER OF CORNWALL COUNCIL
Are you drunk?
Come on, man! Have some imagination. Every county can be its own country! There's no limit! With the US's gerrymandering skills, you can create a geopolitical landscape unseen since the Thirty Years' War!Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
The true tragedy of this vote will be the decline of the Premier League. Needing work permits for the South American talent is bad enough, now the continental players will have to do the same. :no:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvuM3DjvYf0
Aargh. Just aargh.
Overpriced English talent to the rescue!Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
To start the "End of the World" dance party:
https://youtu.be/Z0GFRcFm-aY
I think I just heard fireworks outside.
We have then up here. Someone remarked the other day that it meant the drugs are here..
Why do you think he's putting off invoking Article 50?Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Personally, I can hardly believe it - but it's not that surprising when you consider that the "Stay" campaign devolved into "Project Fear" to the extent that a lot of people are now convinced fascism is coming.
What decided it for me, I think, was the German politicians talking about how it would be "hard" if we left and they're now saying we'll "suffer" so I think we'rem well shot. Trying to intimidate the English just causes us to set our faces, and the Welsh are the same. Ireland - as noted - voted along Sectarian lines but the split wasn't that clean, about 11%, the Scottish gap at 18% is more profound, but turnout there was also 6% lower.
Gibraltar will be upset but they won't leave, especially given how quick Spain was to try to get the knife in.
If the EU is smart they'll offer the UK a deal that's better than WTO rules but not as nice as being in the EU and leave the door open for us to come back in 10 years after we've had our fill of living democratically.
Of course, in ten years the EU might have undergone the sort of reform Britain has been demanding for a couple of decades but which Italy, France and Germany are only now considering - after the horse has bolted.
And London, which pays more into the kitty that funds services in the UK than any other region, voted strongly to remain. And Cornwall, having voted to leave, are now seeking reassurances from the Leave camp that EU subsidies will be replaced by ones from Westminster. I say screw them. London money for Londoners only. Let the Leavers make their own way, without London to soften their landing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
I would now support regional governments in England, with local taxation funding local services, with only defence and foreign affairs shared at a higher level. Let the southwest, Welsh, north, etc. fund themselves from their own tax money, without dipping into London's coffers.
I'm sorry, is the wealthy Londoner coming down to earth with a bump, realising he doesn't control the country?
You lost the vote - get over it and move on.
London hasn't been controlling the country, voting consistently Labour while the rest of England voted Tory. But these were elections and occurred regularly, and I'm ok with subsidising the rest of the country even though these regular elections put London at odds with the rest of the country. But this vote has results that will last for decades, and London, whose money keeps the rest of the country afloat (including fiscal black holes like the south west and Wales), has been dragged out of the EU despite voting 60% remain. If the south west value their pride that much, let them pay for it themselves. Break off the south east as far north as Essex, as far west as Berkshire, and everything to their south and east. Let the rest of England make their own way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
You don't really get this democracy malarky do you?
Leftists see a lost election as an out right attack.
They can always get on that wagon full of malarky and vote their way out. Then they can build a wall to keep all the unwashed ones out while they pave their streets with platinum or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
I dont understand Sturgeon or Scotland they want to leave the UK and become independent but then give it all away to Brussels?
The eurocrats will want to get even and send some bags with money, pretty smart of them really as the grapes are really sour in BrusselsQuote:
Originally Posted by Lizardo
BREXIT Happened – Please don’t Farage it up!
Well blow me down! I thought it would be 52:48 to Remain, not 52:48 to Leave. Now it has happened, how do we make the best of it? First of all; the sky is not falling in. It’s a big change, but the reason why the UK has survived over three centuries without revolution, invasion, or collapse, is because we always step up to a challenge. And because we know a changing world demands continual adaptation. Moreover, it is a victory won by Vote Leave not Leave.eu.
So we don’t need to run scared of Nige…
Don’t get me wrong, I am enormously impressed with his grit, tenacity, and perseverance, but his journey has led him to represent interests I simply don’t share.
So, Vote Leave:
Why did they pursue the £350m figure when the sensible choice would have been for the campaign to avoid it like unstable dynamite. They endured week after week or grueling headlines about “lies”, defending the figure night after night when everyone was saying that Leave was losing. On the one hand, it is perfectly reasonable to point out that Basic Rate income tax is 22p in the pound, regardless of whether you get 19p back in gov’t services. On the other, subtracting the repayments without also explaining the rebate would have been a shambles, ripe for endless ridicule in what passed for serious referendum debate. But surely they would have had a much easier time defending the straight net figure of £120m/week? After all, in terms of public debate £120m is an enormous figure just like £350m, but without all the baggage.
Is it because their plan entails joining EFTA/EEA in the event of winning the referendum? If the plan is to join EFTA then there will be a significant cost per head, roughly the same as Norway pays today, and roughly the same as the net cost we pay in total to the EU right now. “Vote Leave to save nothing!” That would have been the headline if they’d gone with the £120m/week figure. Sure, we still save nothing having joined EFTA after talking about £350m, but now we’re back to the income tax argument. ‘We’ get to decide what to do with the other £230m. A fairly nominal victory afterwards, but at least it doesn’t look ridiculous as would have been the case had they opted for a more accurate figure. Take back control!
Hold on, you say; all well and good, but doesn’t EFTA involve the four freedoms, one of which is the free movement? Why yes. But, didn’t they spend every waking minute in the debates talking about how they would reduce immigration to a trickle? I didn’t hear that claim. Gove, Johnson, and Leadsom all conspicuously avoided ever being tied down to any commitment on how much they would reduce migration by. So much so, that the Remain camp started to use it as an attack against Leave, constantly baiting the trio that they were hiding plans for even HIGHER migration than Remain. Because, isn’t that what happens under Australia’s points-based system relative to Britain. Did you lose track of that in the repeated incantation of “Take back control”?
You can’t “Take back control” when the regime of freedom of movement persists, surely? True, but somebody somewhere obviously thought the schengen crisis would in future provide some scope for revisiting this. It may not amount to much, perhaps only reducing the legal threshold by which someone may be excluded due to the threat they pose. Would this be enough? It might have to be, because the 48% that voted Remain see freedom of movement as totemic to their EUropean identity. Retaining freedom of movement within EFTA may be enough to shoot the SNP fox. The four freedoms are also deemed crucial by small but important demographics such as Gibraltar.
Would freedom of movement be a betrayal of many of those who voted “Out” from the Labour heartland towns? Sure, but that isn’t my problem, and it isn’t Tory party’s either. Seriously, I’m a middle-class classical-liberal in a tech profession with a decade of experience under my collection of qualifications. Freedom of movement is great! But why has Labour been unable to understand that freedom of movement has never been seen as a reciprocal right by its core electorate? Yes, it’s great that Mikel and Bartec can come here and work (really, it is), but of what use is freedom of movement to Damon and Jordan with the five E-C grade GCSE’s? Essentially, any betrayal is a problem for the Labour party, and a boon to the Tory’s.
This last is a warning to the left-wing that feeling salty about the referendum result isn’t good enough. If you care about your ‘constituency’ then you need to address the problem when it comes up in the negotiation, because neo-liberal conservatives aren’t going to expend political capital doing it for you. EFTA could be just a transitional thing while a more bespoke arrangement is put in place. Put your shoulder to the wheel, even if that means limiting your ability to sip Kraft beer whenever the mood takes.
One last point on trade. It should be tariff free with the developing world. It should be supported by lowering business taxes to compete with cheap imports. That should be paid for by slashing the DfID budget in half. It would make a lovely change if, having escaped the EU external tariff border, we helped developing nations get richer with trade. This, as opposed to hiding behind the EU’s tariff wall, and making ourselves feel better about their continued poverty by giving billions in aid so that despots and quangos can swan around sunny parts of the world in Toyota Landcruisers.
This objective is also achievable from within EFTA.😉
p.s. Why do pundits keep describing the result as decisive? It was not, which is why measures to assuage the fears of the 48% are important.
then we resort to article 61 in the original treaty of magna carta: lawful rebellion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
i.e. we turn up in front of parliament with burning brands and erect a gibbet.
Brexit was a flawed campaign that could have been lost if come up against someone with a good sense of public relations, bremain alas had none.
Have you considered that the reason we voted "Leave" outside of our own little Micro-London of Exeter is that we just haven't been seeing the benefit? Londoners talk about subsidising the UK the way Victorians talk about housing the poor. The South West is poor because it relies on farming and UK farming has ever been a target of the EU because the CAP benefit French farming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
BBC DeadRingers:
http://bbc.in/28QdRD6
How is London not wanting to pay for Wales any different from Britain not wanting to pay for Poland?Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
Freedom for London I say!
uhm yeah, leftist logic keeps amazing.
Anyways, we finally gotten to the bottom of it, brexit is all about Turkey and his highness in particular. finally someone who just says it
Rightist logic keeps amazing.
Turns out it was all lies and now they are falling apart.
oh, is that soQuote:
Originally Posted by Husar
And what community is not?Quote:
Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny
Yep, the English are not that easy to be intimidate:Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Attachment 18610
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3128202.stm
Anybody with a brain would be surprised when a citizen of a non-EU country becomes "president of the EU" :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizardo
This referendum is not binding. The government certainly isn't going to ignore the result, but legally it isn't required to act on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
If you're talking about Schauble (German finance minister) I think his point was that getting Britain into a similar relationship to the EU as Norway or Switzerland has would entirely defeat the point of leaving. EFTA is actually a bit of a misnomer, as it goes far beyond free trade. It includes freedom of movement and a large part, perhaps the majority, of regulations the EU has set.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Sovereignty and anti-immigration sentiment were important motivations for Brexit voters. Becoming an EFTA member goes against both, plus it actually removes the UK's say in those regulations.
If it's not Schauble, I wonder who you're thinking of, and wether or not you actually paid attention to what he or she said...instead of just going by the headlines.
Ten years seems like a fairly short time. But it could happen, and the EU could change a lot in that time - for better or worse. It seems unlikely though that the UK will get as many opt-out clauses as they currently have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Nigel Farage has reacted with fury after Vote Leave said it would exclude him from a cross-party committee which will negotiate Britain’s exit from the European Union. The UK Independence Party leader said that he would use his position as head of the Ukip group in the European Parliament – the biggest group of British MEPs – to ensure he had a say over the terms of British breakaway from the EU. Senior Vote Leave sources on Friday made clear that Mr Farage would not be invited to join the committee negotiating the Brexit. One told The Telegraph: “Nigel Farage’s involvement has come to an end.” Mr Farage responded furiously. He said: “I just don’t understand these people – they will never give me credit for anything. "I have tried for nearly a year to work with these people and fight on a common agenda and they don’t want to know.”
Makes you wonder why they wouldn't let his campaign become official and government funded. Are we going to get a bad deal now? Because Nigel Farage is a man true to his word the higher up knew this and pre planned in the event of a brexit, I bet we are going to get stuffed I trust Nigel Farage to fight for us and the common people more than Boris and Michael Gove. Carswell and his Tory team want to keep Nigel away from negotiations where they want to avoid immigration reduction.
As InsaneApache puts it "Remain was led by a buttered potato".Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
Ashame that the Liberal Democrats were decimated last election, they would have done a really good Remain campaign, since they are the most pro-EU party. I did see a trickle of their campaigning, and it was a spirited and optimistic one. Unfortunately, it was overshadowed by a buttered potato who isn't even pro-EU.
Thing is, basically everyone campaign wise neglected my local area (except for a stall in the Town Centre led by a Libdem candidate and her daughter) which led to 70% voting out.
Yes, you could see it if you wanted to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
He could want it if you saw it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
19 weeks...
As for an exit in 2017, or 2018, or 2020, or 2030, the UK will continue to decline economically beyond the scope of its ancient regional relations, or the hourly and daily fluctuations of stock exchange figures. And for all the 'more or less', sovereignty is the thing that is affected least by the outcome. More sovereignty even in maintaining membership while illegally cherrypicking standing EU obligations to the point of sanctions.
On a side note, to truly appreciate the rhetorical work of a politician with respect to the development of policy, one must be prepared to view all people as enemies - in a Hobbesian sense.
I'm not back. Not yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If1vafTxHjw
Will you have stopped sulking in 19 weeks?
I was gone for 19 weeks. I've been sulking ever since I joined the forum.
Because, to date, London has not exercised sovereignty independently of England.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Well, there used to be the Kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia, ....Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Going to go all EU-style on you and just dismiss everything you bring up even if it makes sense, and call you a hippie if I don't have an answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Wessex became England, and Wessex was the one that turned a large walled settlement into it's capital. Before that it was tossed around between sussex and the danes IIRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
All right, so the UK voted for Brexit. 52% of voters expressed their democratic opinion to leave the European Union.
Now... well, expect Scotland to do the same. Scotland desire for independence, Northern Ireland desire for either union with Eire or secession from the UK and subsequent political movements in the European Union.
You're still wrong, you hippie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Freedom for Sussex! Let Mercia take back control! Northumbria for Northumbrians!Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
I dont think there are all that many people in my area who knows that Essex used to be a kingdom either. Honestly the idea seems about as absurd as meccan independance from Arabia.
I'm still not convinced on the ireland bit.
A yes to the EU doesnt necissarily translate to a yes to independance, and the Irish dont have the same degree of pre-existing discontent that the scots have, I dare say some republicans will make the noises but unless we screw up in the near future I think it will come to nought even if scotland leaves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Npdgk_pBeU
And I think NI joining Ireland is a joke too. Remember there is approximately 40 percent of scottish people who do not want join the EU
You are doing it wrong, I am supposed to be the fascist in the Grand-EU Theater.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Winchester or Camelot?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
They will once they choose someone named Offa for their leader.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
As does the idea of Britain prospering independently from the rest of Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
But look at the cultural differences, not only does London have a completely different culture from Wessex, they also don't speak the same language as they do in Manchester. London could take back control of its money by parting from the rest of the annoying bunch. Manchester could then raise the taxes for the rich to benefit its working class, especially because there'd be no rich people left to complain. Wessex could just bask in its nationalist glory without having to share it with others and so on.
According to your own political theory, I can easily out-fascist you if I just move a bit to the left from a socialist position. ~;pQuote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
It's idiots like those in Cornwall and Sunderland who deserve to be cut off. I've already cited Cornwall's gall at voting out and demanding that Westminster make up the shortfall resulting from discontinued EU subsidies. Workers at a car plant in Sunderland have also proudly voted out then complained when the company hinted that it may move its operations continent-side as a result of likely subsequent different trade conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
IA is right, socialism is dead. There is no reason for those who make money to subsidise those who don't. Let the west and north make of life what they will, with the profitable south east breaking off.
Suck it up mate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceafx0Y3bB0
Shame on the old people for hijacking the future of the educated youth!
Well she voted like seniority, but you get the picture.
This is exactly why remain lost. The contempt and sneering against the working classes was redolent of a tory squire in the 19th century.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crandar
Back then the offspring of the working class had to assist their parents in the coal mines, so illiteracy is excused. Nowadays, not so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
Manicure, Miley Cyrus and facebook are not as valid as feeding your family.
So, ridiculing her for not knowing what referendum means is fine.
By the way, ignorance like that is not limited to the working class.
I quite agree.Quote:
So, ridiculing her for not knowing what referendum means is fine.
By the way, ignorance like that is not limited to the working class.
However the only qualification to vote is to live until you're 18 years old.
Still a nice result for all those fruitcake loon racists dontcha think!
I am confused to what point you are trying to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crandar
It is entirely natural to become agitated after a dissapointment of this magnitude, if they are still this bad in a week or two then it's getting into overreaction territory.
I wonder what you think of Farage's statement that the victory was won "without a single bullet being fired".
What about the bullet fired at Mrs. Cox?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
...I dont know, maybe he doesnt count the bullet when it being fired contriubted nothing to the victory?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
You lot have forgotten the virtue of democracy,
Government changes without a violent revolution.
We have nice and quiet and peaceful revolution every five years or so.
It's the British way.
:2thumbsup:
Guarantees wanted over the future of European millions
Devolution should press on, with Yorkshire and the north east getting its own government. And that government should tax and fund its own business themselves, without drawing on London's money. Outside defence and foreign affairs, every region should raise its own taxes and fund its own government, without having any of it hived off to support other regions.Quote:
COUNCIL leaders in Yorkshire are expected to move quickly to seek assurances from the Government in key areas in the wake of the Brexit vote.
A major priority will be to secure guarantees over the £600m of EU funding the region is due to receive to help grow Yorkshire’s economy between now and 2020.
The money became a significant issue in the campaign as concerns were expressed about the possible impact of Brexit on areas like Yorkshire, which have historically been major recipients of EU cash.
In a key moment of the campaign, Vote Leave pledged that in the event of an out vote, money saved from Britain’s EU ‘membership fee’ would be used to fill the gap.
However, with Vote Leave being a cross-party campaign organisation rather than the Government, it is not clear what weight that guarantee will carry.
Council leaders in the region are also expected to press the case for accelerated moves towards handing more powers into local control.
They are likely to seek reassurances that leaving the EU will not be a cover for concentrating decision-making in London.
Concern has already been expressed that the prospect of David Cameron’s departure from Downing St could put current devolution discussions in doubt.
Ed Cox, director of the IPPR North thinktank, said: “The people have spoken, but in the North they have shouted. The signs of malaise with the Westminster elite have been there for some time.
“Whatever you believe about the Northern Powerhouse, few can deny that our trading relationships with our (soon to be former) EU partners matter much more to northern businesses than they do to the City of London.
“We need to define the kind of economy we want to become. Our obsession with the big cities and aggregate growth must take a new turn and wake up to the cries of those on the margins who are busy manufacturing the goods we will now struggle harder to sell overseas.”
He added: “Politically, we should let devolution rip. Both major political parties must reinvent themselves from the bottom up with more plural local political systems that bring people closer to power.”
I don't know how far google-translate handles this but it is a pretty good musing of Geenstijl http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven...thof.html#more