Euro Area

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brenus

“the State has a responsibility to the whole of society though - not you as an individual.” A State is a political construction, a contract for a community to have common rule. If you don’t think a State has to protect his weaker member and care for the population, but to be an autonomous beast so we don’t have the same idea of what is a State.
So, why do you pay taxes? To give good money to Politicians?

---

Yes - a State is a political construction, a collective one.

Dieing young makes you unfortunate - not weak. Just because you might not live to retirement age doesn't mean that age shouldn't rise.

When France first had a state pension in the 1950's what was the life expectancy? 65, 68?

The system isn't meant to support a long old age and it can't be made to - it doesn't make economic sense. If the retirement age is 70 and the average life expectancy is 80 then the average citizen gets 10 years at the end of their life supported by the state. Given that average age includes all those young people, i.e. below 50, who would NEVER draw a pension the majority of pensioners will get between 15 and 20 years.

A shared currency between countries with widely different economical, not to mention cultural, outlook will never work.

I have been thinking that all along.

I don't cite a source, the world as it is should prove my point as it is.

“The system isn't meant to support a long old age and it can't be made to - it doesn't make economic sense.” I agree. So the system has to be adapted to the new technological and economic situation.
The capitalistic failing system solution is to go back to the origin (Bismarck) and put the age of pension at the average date for dying: Money and Profit first.
Or, you might consider that we civilized a little bit, and it is time to give elderlies good time, little moments of happiness before the Big Jump in the Unknown. So you can have laws and taxes taking on the increasingly profitable society to give better life and free the people.
I don’t know if you notice, but you use the same argument that the ones who were pro-slavery, for the children work in factories, against the 1 week holidays and basically all workers life improvement: We can’t afford it. Of course, each time we did. And each time it create more business and money than it cost.
In short (and simplistic), to put the children back to factories will be the end of Disney.

The problem is the distribution of the Wealth.

In term of economy what does not make sense is the accumulation. The legend actually in vogue in the Capitalist Ideology is the riches create jobs. Non sense, England should be fully employed.
The Rich became riche (sometimes) because they had a good idea and made people working for them. But most of them are rich because at one point of History, some members of the family were good at looting, killing and raping others, or exploiting.
One person got 16 million bonus will spend a little bit of it in buying a new yacht, and perhaps a new gardener. 16 million kids receiving 1 whatever currency will spend it immediately. The first 16 million are useless, the 2nd one are put back in the economy and allows factories, workers, shop keepers to live, taxes going to the States, pensions, health system, police, Army to be founded.

“Brenus, whenever has the euro obeyed any rule stood in the way of ever closer union?” I know. But I am just laughing about “experts” who even didn’t read the Treaty, the same who were selling us the Celtic Dragon, and the Spanish Economic Boom…
I regret Louis because I vote against the Treaty and he did. I wonder what he would tell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

A shared currency between countries with widely different economical, not to mention cultural, outlook will never work.

I have been thinking that all along.

I don't cite a source, the world as it is should prove my point as it is.

---

And yet - this keeps getting called the "Anglo-Saxon" heresy.

Brenus: if you read my post, you'll see I advocated an average of a decade on average, I think that's as generous as anyone has a right to expect but your Hollande wants to give an average of two decades.

That's childish, because children are the only ones who deserve to live for an extended period off the backs of the community.

"That's childish, because children are the only ones who deserve to live for an extended period off the backs of the community." In Africa, they will tell that the elders have the priority as they gave to the Community. As much they know, children are still a potential, perhaps criminals and thieves.
What is childish is to deny the fact that societies can afford to give back to the oldest a little bit of what they gave.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brenus

"That's childish, because children are the only ones who deserve to live for an extended period off the backs of the community." In Africa, they will tell that the elders have the priority as they gave to the Community. As much they know, children are still a potential, perhaps criminals and thieves.
What is childish is to deny the fact that societies can afford to give back to the oldest a little bit of what they gave.

---

Western societies give a lot back to the elderly already. In many cases a lot more than they gave, given the spiralling cost of healthcare and social care.

Those who are 65+ are no longer "the oldest". They are a significant percentage of the population.

~:smoking:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brenus

"That's childish, because children are the only ones who deserve to live for an extended period off the backs of the community." In Africa, they will tell that the elders have the priority as they gave to the Community. As much they know, children are still a potential, perhaps criminals and thieves.
What is childish is to deny the fact that societies can afford to give back to the oldest a little bit of what they gave.

---

My hundred year old grandfather who fought in the war is "the oldest" - he is currently in hospital, my 61 year of father is not.

Mumbles something about picture and thousands words

http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments

Would you vote on this man, of course not you can't. While we are distracted with the crisis the flemish ferret his Portugese waiter and a German booksalesman are completing the international socialism

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

A shared currency between countries with widely different economical, not to mention cultural, outlook will never work.

I have been thinking that all along.

I don't cite a source, the world as it is should prove my point as it is.

---

Again, take a look at the economy of Delaware and the economy of New York. What do you know, the dollar works...

They have federal taxation to slosh cash around, and a lender of last resort.

Oh, And a sense of shared familial sentiment to legitimise such transfers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Mumbles something about picture and thousands words

http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments

Would you vote on this man, of course not you can't. While we are distracted with the crisis the flemish ferret his Portugese waiter and a German booksalesman are completing the international socialism

---

Hey, I didn't know that Monty Burns was Dutch!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Again, take a look at the economy of Delaware and the economy of New York. What do you know, the dollar works...

---

Except when a Texan bank goes bust the state of Texas is not expected to shoulder the burden of it's collapse.

Same as when Northeren Rock went bust the Bank of England didnt say to Newcastle City Council to pay up for it.

Banks are too big too complex and too spread out for national governments to handle then when we have a crisis in the Eurozone.

The normal route to solving bank crisis are not available hence the fragility of banks everywhere including Germany.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rvg

Hey, I didn't know that Monty Burns was Dutch!

---

He is flemmish, and nobody knows who he are and why he is there really. But it is unlikely he is Dutch as there aren't that many owls dropping out of the tree that want to conquer europe here. I hope.

BLAM Spain also needs money, to the absolute surprise of europhiles they are flabbergasted. They knew, for a fact, that it was highly unlikely because ehhhh it just is. But Spain is too big to save it cannot be done not a thousand European anthems is going to change that.

Where was that Nigel Farrage compilation

Can someone in the UK or the US please adopt me I promise I won't chew on any cables. Brazil China or India is also fine.

Quote:

---

Can someone in the UK or the US please adopt me I promise I won't chew on any cables. Brazil China or India is also fine.

---

...Fine, but I get to legally change your name to Mr Bubbles.

Fine, my real name Johny Stardust isn't all that special anyway

Dan wades in with his thoughts I particularly like the first line.

Quote:

---

DAN O'BRIEN, Economics Editor The Irish Times

How Europe plans to prevent a repeat of banking nightmare

EUROPEANS INVENTED banks. These days it feels as if banks will end up “uninventing” Europe.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The euro crisis is – first and foremost – a financial crisis. Preventing finance from threatening economic prosperity, and, ultimately, societal stability is probably the biggest and most urgent public policy challenge facing the rich world in the medium term.

Yesterday the European Commission chipped in with its tuppence ha’penny worth, publishing a 250-page menu of proposals on how the EU and euro zone banking systems can be made safer.

It includes proposals on how the risk of banks failing can be reduced, how regulators can get stuck early to banks that are showing signs of weakness and – perhaps most importantly – how taxpayers can be spared the cost of picking up bankers’ losses.

There is no shortage of context on just how big the challenge is in achieving all these aims.

When one thinks of overblown finance, Wall Street may be the first place on the planet that comes to mind.

But, lamentably, European bankers put their American counterparts in the ha’penny place when it comes to ballooning their balance sheets.

The commission noted yesterday that of the assets of the world’s 1,000 largest banks in 2008-2009, EU banks account for 56 per cent, versus US banks’ meagre 13 per cent. In terms of assets relative to size of national economies, the largest EU banks dwarf their US counterparts.

One reason for this is because European companies depend much more on banks for their financing needs than their American counterparts. The latter are far more likely to cut out the middle men in banks and tap stock and bond markets directly when they need to raise money. According to the Institute of International Finance, a club for the world’s biggest bankers, three-quarters of all credit intermediation in Europe is handled by banks. In the US it is only one-quarter.

To summarise: Europe’s banks have grown dangerously big but the real economy remains hugely dependent on them.

The size, interconnectedness and sheer complexity of the European banking system has become a nightmare. There are enough issues and complexities to make any head hurt.

The biggest conundrum in the long term is how to handle banks that blow up so that panic is not triggered and taxpayers’ money does not have to be used to reassure or bail out stampeding financiers.

It is often said that this should be straightforward – corporate and personal bankruptcies are inevitable in a market economy because companies and individuals make bad financial decisions and get unlucky all the time. As most countries have laws and structures to ensure that these forms of bankruptcy happen as smoothly as possible, why not treat banks in the same way?

In Europe, few countries had similar laws and structures to deal with bankrupt banks when the financial crisis erupted half a decade ago (since successive administrations here never bothered to modernise even personal bankruptcy laws, it will come as no surprise that Ireland was not among the small number of European countries with the foresight to enact bank resolution laws).

One reason for this failure was because so few banks have crashed in living memory. The less something happens, the less well prepared one tends to be when it does happen.

Another understandable lament one hears frequently is why normal corporate bankruptcy laws are not simply applied to banks. The reason is confidence. If, say, a telecoms company’s bondholders are burned, there is very little danger of a knock-on effect to other companies in the industry and no chance of anything as dramatic as a run on them. Banking is different.

That said, while designing resolution mechanisms poses challenges, these are not insurmountable, as the US’s system of aggressively shutting down teetering banks shows.

For what it is worth, yesterday’s report by the commission said that the resolution measures the Government is now putting in place are not incompatible with any of its proposals for a Europe-wide resolution mechanism.

If resolution mechanisms are to be successful, says the report, the authorities will need a range of powers. One is “the power to remove or replace the senior management of an institution under resolution”.

How many objections would that raise in this jurisdiction?

---

Well thats that then "It's A Bailout" to paraphrase South Park

Spanish Economy Minister Luis de Guindos says Spain will seek financial help

Quote:

---

Spain this evening formally requested European financial assistance of up to €100bn to save its stricken banks and try to avert a broader financial catastrophe.

Fellow finance ministers in the 17-nation eurozone accepted the plea in a statement released after an emergency video conference lasting more than two hours.
"The Spanish government declares its intention to solicit European financial help for the recapitalization of those banks that need it," Economy Minister Luis de Guindos told a news conference.
The request amounts to a climbdown for Spain, as successive Spanish governments have denied any need for outside aid.
Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy's conservative government finally had to bow to rising pressure from world leaders and more importantly the markets, which have sent its borrowing costs soaring.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Defying desperate efforts by eurozone policymakers, the emergency has spread to the region's fourth-biggest economy - Spain's is twice the size of that of Greece's, Ireland's and Portugal's combined.
Irish Finance Minister Michael Noonan this evening said the Spanish deal will not mean a better deal for Ireland on its banking debts.
Speaking in Limerick, Minister Noonan said the deal agreed with Spain replicates the recapitalisation part of the deal that was done for Ireland.
He described the deal as "satisfactory" and said it would bring about much needed stablity to the eurozone.
Minister Noonan said that he would have preferred if the money was pumped directly into the Spanish banks rather than through the sovereign and he said he would expect the same to apply to Ireland.
He said today was not the day for discussing that but he told finance ministers on this afternoon's conference call that he would be returning to it at future eurozone meetings.
Spain denies deal is a 'rescue'
Mr de Guindos refused to describe the aid as a rescue, which his government had categorically ruled out even in the days leading up to the formal request for cash.
"This has nothing to do with a rescue," he insisted, arguing that the aid would be directed to the 30% of banks with the greatest exposure to the 2008 property market crash.
The deal imposed no conditions on the overall Spanish economy, and no new austerity measures, Mr de Guindos said.
"The only conditions are for the banks. There are no additional conditions for the Spanish people," he added.
After talks lasting more than two hours, the eurogroup ministers issued a statement saying they were "willing to respond favourably" to the request for financial assistance.
Up to €100bn would be provided by the European rescue mechanisms to recapitalise Spanish banks, it said, providing an "effective backstop" for all possible requirements.
The size of the aid would depend on an external audit already being carried out for Madrid by consultants Roland Berger and Oliver Wyman, and due by 21 June.
The cash would be channelled through Spain's state-backed bank Fund for Orderly Bank Restructuring, it said.
Eurozone ministers said they were confident Spain would honour commitments to cut the deficit and restructure the economy.
"Progress in these areas will be closely and regularly reviewed," they said.
Mr de Guindos stressed that the €100bn included a big safety margin.
"This announcement is good news for the Spanish economy and for the future of the eurozone," he said.
International Monetary Fund bank stress tests, unveiled yesterday three days ahead of schedule, determined that Spanish banks need about €40bn in new capital.
But an IMF official noted that the banks would probably need more than that to build a "credible firewall."
German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble hailed the deal for Spain saying he and his colleagues welcomed Spain's "determination" to recapitalise the banks with "rescue funds".

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

Well thats that then "It's A Bailout" to paraphrase South Park

Spanish Economy Minister Luis de Guindos says Spain will seek financial help

---

Can't imagine that's going to play well down your way.

Yep, again. Bank made losses, Taxes Payers will pay. What will be the Spanish? Lazy, and not paying their taxes, having retirement at 45? Well, these lies worked once, why changed a winning formula?

Considering the present crisis is as old as banking you have to wonder why it isn't better controlled. My hypothesis is that there is just too much money to be made leaving it broken.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Can't imagine that's going to play well down your way.

---

Basically everything that the government has told em for the last year will be done on the sly for Spain(except not really the sovereign is being bailed out) and we will be ignored as usual as good compliant members of the "Troika Programme"

These clowns still havent figured out the game had changed and in now it has in fact has changed utterly a terrible beuaty is born so to speak.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

Basically everything that the government has told em for the last year will be done on the sly for Spain(except not really the sovereign is being bailed out) and we will be ignored as usual as good compliant members of the "Troika Programme"

These clowns still havent figured out the game had changed and in now it has in fact has changed utterly a terrible beuaty is born so to speak.

---

Serious question: Are the IRA (whatever their current form) capable of making the intellectual leap to seeing the EU beurocracy as the "New Enemy"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Serious question: Are the IRA (whatever their current form) capable of making the intellectual leap to seeing the EU beurocracy as the "New Enemy"?

---

As long as Northern Ireland wants to remain British, I doubt that. As they will always see it as British oppression upon their homeland, even though it is the North wanting to remain within the union. So unless the north became "True Irish", which would remove the large bulk of support for the movement, they probably don't have a real momentum to switch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Serious question: Are the IRA (whatever their current form) capable of making the intellectual leap to seeing the EU beurocracy as the "New Enemy"?

---

No I doubt it but the ordinary voter and sinn fein are and lately there profitting electorally on it.

Unsurprisingly a Portugese waitor knows the answer, we need more Europe. Tellas A's party will no doubt agree since they directly democrately support anything Europe as long as it's Europe because it's Europe, no democracy needed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ISd...layer_embedded

ECB exposed to 444 billion Euros. Kinnell. :sweatdrop:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by InsaneApache

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ISdTcwC-54&feature=player_embedded

ECB exposed to 444 billion Euros. Kinnell. :sweatdrop:

---

Not as many people used to turn up, nobody cheered and people booed.

How times have changed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Tellas A's party will no doubt agree since they directly democrately support anything Europe as long as it's Europe because it's Europe, no democracy needed

---

Which party would that be?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Which party would that be?

---

EU66, you know the one of the Bilderberg meeting. The one with crownjewels

Fun fact, out of all party's the voters of EU66 are the most opposed against a referendum on the greatest heist in human history that is the ESM