What does the UK, France and the Netherlands have in common?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

So the responsibility is purely on the (formerly) oppressed? They are the ones who need to learn to forgive? The oppressor has no responsibility?

These debates always have a tendency to switch victim and abuser around. Western nations immediately go into victim-mode when faced with crimes of the past.

Man up and do like the Aussie PM did a few years ago: apologize.

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I cannot apologize for something I have not done. I can only express regret for the wrongs done by others before me (which IS worthwhile, don't mistake me). Fisherking referenced things more broadly in the line I quoted. He was implying that until we focused more on effecting a better future than on assessing blame in the past that we would be missing something. I concurred, but despaired of it being likely -- my personal experience suggests that to truly forgive is tough to do -- regardless of any apology or regret tendered.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I cannot apologize for something I have not done.

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So what?

The Aussie PM wasn't responsible, yet he apologized on behalf of Australia. The Norwegian PM didnt ship the jews off to the Nazi's, yet he apologized for it a couple of years ago.

Symbolic actions, definitely, but very meaningful for the descendants of those who were wronged.

The Brits haven't apologized to anyone, and they need to do it.

EDIT: Also, we are talking about state actions and state responsibilities here, not individual actions or responsibilities.

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The Brits haven't apologized to anyone, and they need to do it.

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Wrong.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6185176.stm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bl...e-1253790.html

So can we stop the Brit bashing now?

This thread should be renamed, "Evidence that the European Union is anything but."

I have to say, I love British culture (blasting through Sherlock right now on Netflix) and politics and food and weather and history.

But when it comes down to it, Germany will always have a special place in my heart due to Leibniz and his notation. Way to half ass it with a single dot, Newton. Jesus.

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Evidence that the European Union is anything but.

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Quite.

Yorkshire men get a pass, it is all the Midlanders and Southerners that should be strung up! (only kidding)

It is not about the British People anyway. It is about the Government, and their education system that covers over incontinent facts. Just like every other government and their educational system.

Governments seem to be a necessary evil we all must put up with and they are intertwined with Nationalism to a degree that makes them hard to separate.

It is natural to take pride in accomplishments and forget the mistakes, but when viewing others we tend to remember the bad and gloss over their accomplishments.

The problem with the EU is that countries which are not in Europe such as Britain and Turkey are considered as members in the first place.

And what Fisherking says is of course not true for the German education system. We learned numerous times about all the horrible things we did and the rest was about the glorious French revolution with some Romans and Bismarck thrown in.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

Yorkshire men get a pass, it is all the Midlanders and Southerners that should be strung up! (only kidding)

It is not about the British People anyway. It is about the Government, and their education system that covers over incontinent facts. Just like every other government and their educational system.

Governments seem to be a necessary evil we all must put up with and they are intertwined with Nationalism to a degree that makes them hard to separate.

It is natural to take pride in accomplishments and forget the mistakes, but when viewing others we tend to remember the bad and gloss over their accomplishments.

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The education system doesn't cover the bad bits of empire in much detail. It covers the good bits of empire in even less detail. During history, what I was taught was overwhelmingly domestic history. The only bit of empire that crept in was Ireland and how we variously screwed the Irish over. Other than that, it was British political reforms from the 1860s onwards, then the first world war. Other than anglo-centrism, I'm not sure what kind of nationalism was evident in my history curriculum.

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Originally Posted by Husar

The problem with the EU is that countries which are not in Europe such as Britain and Turkey are considered as members in the first place.

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errr sorry what?

Britain is IN Europe - while the public deny it at every opportunity our country has always being Geographically and politically part of Europe - its only very recent modern history which has seen us distance ourselves from Europe somewhat... I am not sure what angle you are pulling here but it sounds jingoistic to me...

as for Turkey... they aren't in the EU yet so what are you harping on about...

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

This thread should be renamed, "Evidence that the European Union is anything but."

I have to say, I love British culture (blasting through Sherlock right now on Netflix) and politics and food and weather and history.

But when it comes down to it, Germany will always have a special place in my heart due to Leibniz and his notation. Way to half ass it with a single dot, Newton. Jesus.

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This is where you lost me.

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Wrong.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6185176.stm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bl...e-1253790.html

So can we stop the Brit bashing now?

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I say we continue our most cherished activity:

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Originally Posted by article

But Mr Blair stopped short of issuing a full apology

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Originally Posted by Sir Moody

errr sorry what?

Britain is IN Europe - while the public deny it at every opportunity our country has always being Geographically and politically part of Europe - its only very recent modern history which has seen us distance ourselves from Europe somewhat... I am not sure what angle you are pulling here but it sounds jingoistic to me...

as for Turkey... they aren't in the EU yet so what are you harping on about...

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Yeah, I lied, but I don't care. Because if I had written that Europe should stop opposing EU integration and accept that it is a part of Europe, I'd be looking at another 3 pages of discussion about how Britain is special...

As for Turkey, I wrote "considered as members" for a reason...

And IA, as HoreTore hinted at, half of your BBC article is about how this was only the first step in the right direction and far from enough.

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Originally Posted by Husar

And IA, as HoreTore hinted at, half of your BBC article is about how this was only the first step in the right direction and far from enough.

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and I agree wholeheartedly - we should issue an full apology about the monsterous things the Empire did - and we should be educating the public on both the good and the bad of our Empire days - I also found the "my Monster was better than your Monster" argument laughable, I simply took umbrage at your insistence Britain wasn't part of Europe... its bad enough I have to listen to our isolationists when they try to pull that one...

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Originally Posted by Sir Moody

and I agree wholeheartedly - we should issue an full apology about the monsterous things the Empire did - and we should be educating the public on both the good and the bad of our Empire days - I also found the "my Monster was better than your Monster" argument laughable, I simply took umbrage at your insistence Britain wasn't part of Europe... its bad enough I have to listen to our isolationists when they try to pull that one...

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Our former colonies don't even want an apoligy, they just want to move on. There is no grudge in any of the former colonies to speak of.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Our former colonies don't even want an apoligy, they just want to move on. There is no grudge in any of the former colonies to speak of.

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that is true of most of our former colonies as well but that doesn't mean we should distance ourselves from the wrongs our ancestors committed... I am unsure of where I stand on reparations but an apology is a simple acknowledgment of our mistakes

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I also found the "my Monster was better than your Monster" argument laughable,...

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In a world populated solely by monsters it is the only argument you can have on the subject.

As for reparation, I dare say leaving most of the empire without needing to be kicked out in a costly war (an unusual if not almost unprecedented act) should cover a large amount of what is deemed owed. Also take into consideration the millions we have given them over the years in aid.

The thing is, who will actually pay? The taxpayer? If so there are millions of members of former colonies living and working in the UK. Do they have to contribute or will they be exempt? I not, why not? If they do have to pay then the whole thing becomes ludicrous.

Like unraveling spaghetti.

Never mind the fact that I, my children and possible my grand-children will be asked to pay for something that even my great, great grandad didn't get anything out of. Perhaps the descendents of the plantations and slave ships should pay. My guess is they can't and wont be numerous enough to make any difference.

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

The thing is, who will actually pay? The taxpayer? If so there are millions of members of former colonies living and working in the UK. Do they have to contribute or will they be exempt? I not, why not? If they do have to pay then the whole thing becomes ludicrous.

Like unraveling spaghetti.

Never mind the fact that I, my children and possible my grand-children will be asked to pay for something that even my great, great grandad didn't get anything out of. Perhaps the descendents of the plantations and slave ships should pay. My guess is they can't and wont be numerous enough to make any difference.

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which is precisely why I am unsure where I stand on reparations...

The taxpayers also bailed out the banks even if they had no responsibility for the whole real estate failure.
Sometimes life just isn't fair...it's not like slavery was fair either.

Don't you esteem fairness?

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Don't you esteem fairness?

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Yes, in no small part because of its rarity.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Don't you esteem fairness?

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Read through the thread. See how the opinions of people who lived in these former colonies are dismissed in favour of philosophical arguments made by people living thousands of miles away. The correct approach is to start with the conclusion that Britain is wrong, then work backwards to find an argument that results in that conclusion, rejecting any evidence or arguments that might divert from that approach. Fairness is useful only if it results in the desired conclusion. If not, the world being unfair is also a useful argument as long as it also results in the conclusion that Britain is wrong.

Colonials thinking that Britain on balance might not have been such a bad thing? Stockholm syndrome causing the victims to like their kidnappers. Former colonials liking Britain even more now that they've had a taste of rule by their own native rulers? Not enough time has passed to show them how evil the British were and how much better off they are now the evil Brits are gone. Former colonials dedicating history exhibitions that showcase the achievements under British rule? Bias coming from these museums being made during the British era. Nope, it all goes back to the original wrong by the Brits which has never been admitted, even though there has never been any attempt to whitewash that event. I wonder what Sun Yatsen and the founders of the Chinese republic would have made of these efforts at excoriating British Hong Kong, particularly the arguments about victims getting to like their kidnappers. Apparently Stockholm syndrome kicks in after 100 years of British rule, but is somehow absent after 300 years of Manchurian rule.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Read through the thread. See how the opinions of people who lived in these former colonies are dismissed in favour of philosophical arguments made by people living thousands of miles away. The correct approach is to start with the conclusion that Britain is wrong, then work backwards to find an argument that results in that conclusion, rejecting any evidence or arguments that might divert from that approach. Fairness is useful only if it results in the desired conclusion. If not, the world being unfair is also a useful argument as long as it also results in the conclusion that Britain is wrong.

Colonials thinking that Britain on balance might not have been such a bad thing? Stockholm syndrome causing the victims to like their kidnappers. Former colonials liking Britain even more now that they've had a taste of rule by their own native rulers? Not enough time has passed to show them how evil the British were and how much better off they are now the evil Brits are gone. Former colonials dedicating history exhibitions that showcase the achievements under British rule? Bias coming from these museums being made during the British era. Nope, it all goes back to the original wrong by the Brits which has never been admitted, even though there has never been any attempt to whitewash that event. I wonder what Sun Yatsen and the founders of the Chinese republic would have made of these efforts at excoriating British Hong Kong, particularly the arguments about victims getting to like their kidnappers. Apparently Stockholm syndrome kicks in after 100 years of British rule, but is somehow absent after 300 years of Manchurian rule.

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If you think it's unfair to make the modern British pay for past mistakes, you can start by giving me back my tax money that was spent paying reparations to Britain for a war that happened long before I was born.

Britain's vehicle by which it did it's wrongs we dismantled ourselves at our own cost and through our own volition, while yours had to be broken apart by, and at the cost of, everyone else while you fought against its destruction.

If the nazi's had been overthrown by the germans instead of requiring everyone else to enter into the most bloody and costly war in history to shift them, you wouldnt be paying, but history played out differently. People dont care who made the mess just who had to pay to clean it up.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Read through the thread. See how the opinions of people who lived in these former colonies are dismissed in favour of philosophical arguments made by people living thousands of miles away. The correct approach is to start with the conclusion that Britain is wrong, then work backwards to find an argument that results in that conclusion, rejecting any evidence or arguments that might divert from that approach. Fairness is useful only if it results in the desired conclusion. If not, the world being unfair is also a useful argument as long as it also results in the conclusion that Britain is wrong.

Colonials thinking that Britain on balance might not have been such a bad thing? Stockholm syndrome causing the victims to like their kidnappers. Former colonials liking Britain even more now that they've had a taste of rule by their own native rulers? Not enough time has passed to show them how evil the British were and how much better off they are now the evil Brits are gone. Former colonials dedicating history exhibitions that showcase the achievements under British rule? Bias coming from these museums being made during the British era. Nope, it all goes back to the original wrong by the Brits which has never been admitted, even though there has never been any attempt to whitewash that event. I wonder what Sun Yatsen and the founders of the Chinese republic would have made of these efforts at excoriating British Hong Kong, particularly the arguments about victims getting to like their kidnappers. Apparently Stockholm syndrome kicks in after 100 years of British rule, but is somehow absent after 300 years of Manchurian rule.

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You're talking about a colonial empire that covered quarter of the globe and exploited more than a billion people and dismiss it because of a few insignificant cases? Really?

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

You're talking about a colonial empire that covered quarter of the globe and exploited more than a billion people and dismiss it because of a few insignificant cases? Really?

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Why not it still was better for those 1 billion in the empire than it was for everything else on offer at the time. The world was kinda crap at the time.


Well, okay, it was better than everyone else, except France. Slightly.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Why not it still was better for those 1 billion in the empire than it was for everything else on offer at the time.

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And this is the core of the problem - average Brit still can't to grasp that colonization wasn't.a.good.thing.

To be fair, most of the other colonizers can't seem to grasp it, either...

During my time in England, I couldn't help but notice that the Englishmen themselves referred to Europe as foreign.

Had to bite my tongue on several occasions - "Where do you think you live?"

Not that it matters much, just saying; Englishmen don't take being part of Europe for granted.

They also still talk about the Empire which is laughable

I would rather live in a culture of reluctant sympathy than a culture that doesn't neglect to pile on the guilt 24/7.

Oh wait, I live in the US, we don't even give sympathy because we are #1.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Britain's vehicle by which it did it's wrongs we dismantled ourselves at our own cost and through our own volition, while yours had to be broken apart by, and at the cost of, everyone else while you fought against its destruction.

If the nazi's had been overthrown by the germans instead of requiring everyone else to enter into the most bloody and costly war in history to shift them, you wouldnt be paying, but history played out differently. People dont care who made the mess just who had to pay to clean it up.

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How is any of that my fault? Just the fact that people don't care ain't make it any more fair.