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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Redleg
Carry it in the open and I will respect your right to have a weapon. Concealed permits is not a guarntee in the Consitution. Nor should it be allowed, except in special circumstances as determined by the state. If you feel you need a concealed weapon to defend yourself - well then again you are falling into the trap of the society of fear concept.
Carry the weapon on your hip or in a shoulder harness in plain view, I have absolutely no respect for anyone that thinks a concealed permit is something they have to have to defend themselves.
Open carry is great- and I'd like to see more of it. However, there are plenty of reasons not to do so. First and most obvious, try going to your local grocery store wearing casual clothes with a gun strapped to you- wait and see how long it takes for someone to panic and call the police saying "There's a man with a gun stalking the grocery store!". You get arrested, frisked, maybe charged with disturbing the peace (typical tactic when they got nothing else on you) and then released because you weren't breaking any laws. Maybe you'd like to go through that on a regular basis- but I wouldnt. In places where it isnt common, open carry scares people.
Second, when you open carry you forfiet the element of surprise... i suppose the tradeoff is the deterent effect of it, but you're telling would be assailants that you have a gun and where you keep it on your person. Again, if more people open carried I wouldnt see this as much as a problem- but since they don't, it is one.
Lastly, I'd say its debatable whether or not concealed carry is constitutionally protected or not- but it's irrelevant right now. In 36+ states, the democratically elected legislatures have passed concealed carry permit laws and it IS legal. Allow me to quote John Stossel.
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Originally Posted by John Stossel
The government wants to say things like the Brady Gun Control Law are making a difference, but they aren't. Some maximum security felons I spoke to in New Jersey scoffed at measures like the Brady law. They said they'll have no trouble getting guns if they want them.
A Justice Department study confirmed what the prisoners said. But get this: the felons say that the thing they fear the most is not the police, not time in prison, but, you, another American who might be armed.
It's a reason many states are passing gun un-control. They're allowing citizens to carry guns with them; it's called concealed carry or right to carry. Some women say they're comforted by these laws.
Many people are horrified at the idea of concealed carry laws, and predict mayhem if all states adopt these laws.
But surprise, 36 states already have concealed carry laws, and not one reported an upsurge in gun crime.
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Originally Posted by Redleg
BTW if you can not tell I am against concealed weapons completely.
I'm glad that there are enough people can see through the hype to keep it legal most everywhere in the US. For my part,I won't live in a state that doesn't allow for concealed carry. Personally, Im intrigued by how the issue is handled in Vermont- if you can own a gun you can carry it... no permits or other nonsense.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Xiahou
Open carry is great- and I'd like to see more of it. However, there are plenty of reasons not to do so. First and most obvious, try going to your local grocery store wearing casual clothes with a gun strapped to you- wait and see how long it takes for someone to panic and call the police saying "There's a man with a gun stalking the grocery store!". You get arrested, frisked, maybe charged with disturbing the peace (typical tactic when they got nothing else on you) and then released because you weren't breaking any laws. Maybe you'd like to go through that on a regular basis- but I wouldnt. In places where it isnt common, open carry scares people.
Responsible use of the weapon - its not a toy, and if your carrying a weapon into a store the owner of such establishment as a right to know that you have brought a firearm into his establishment. Your trading his right to know what is going on in his establishment for your rights.
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Second, when you open carry you forfiet the element of surprise... i suppose the tradeoff is the deterent effect of it, but you're telling would be assailants that you have a gun and where you keep it on your person. Again, if more people open carried I wouldnt see this as much as a problem- but since they don't, it is one.
My arguement has always been about weapon is - if you want the right to bear arms - then do so openly. The constitution does not protect your priveledge to carry a concealed weapon - it grants you the right to keep and bear arms.
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Lastly, I'd say its debatable whether or not concealed carry is constitutionally protected or not- but it's irrelevant right now. In 36+ states, the democratically elected legislatures have passed concealed carry permit laws and it IS legal. Allow me to quote John Stossel.
Which is exactly why the founding fathers worded the constitution the way it is - so that individual states can determine what is the law for that area. That is following the legislative process. Licensing for Concealed weapons is a state granted priveledge which the state can take away - and can legislate away if they so chose.
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I'm glad that there are enough people can see through the hype to keep it legal most everywhere in the US. For my part,I won't live in a state that doesn't allow for concealed carry. Personally, Im intrigued by how the issue is handled in Vermont- if you can own a gun you can carry it... no permits or other nonsense.
If you talk about rifles, shotguns, and firearms and the right to keep and bear arms of anytype then the constitution supports that right. When you talk about concealed weapons permits - your talking about individual states and their legislative process. Be careful of accusing others about hype when your demonstrating it yourself.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Prince Laridus Konivaich
What normal, non-paranoid person would need to ban everyone else from having guns or knives?
Same reason we don't want Iran to have nukes. Sooner or later they will be used against you...... :book:
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Redleg
Responsible use of the weapon - its not a toy, and if your carrying a weapon into a store the owner of such establishment as a right to know that you have brought a firearm into his establishment. Your trading his right to know what is going on in his establishment for your rights.
Point out to me where I said guns are toys, why did you mention that?
A store owner has a right to know what if I carry a weapon into the store? Why? It's irrelevant and has no bearing on why Im there or what bussiness Im conducting. I suppose they do have a right to know everything I have on my person, technically, since its private property but I've no right to go out of my way to inform them of everything I have on me. If they want to know for some bizarre reason they can search people as they enter or use metal detectors or whatnot. Its their 'right' to do so afterall. Of course me and many others will stay away in droves from a store with such policies. As a matter of fact, in states where 'no firearms' signs are legally binding (not mine) many stores and chains are targetted by letter campaigns and boycotts for trying to keep people from carrying- I can post some examples if you want. Point being, if they want to control what people bring into their stores, the burden is on them- not me.
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My arguement has always been about weapon is - if you want the right to bear arms - then do so openly. The constitution does not protect your priveledge to carry a concealed weapon - it grants you the right to keep and bear arms.
I don't know where in the Constitution it says "if you want the right to bear arms - then do so openly". Im pretty sure it just says that the right to keep and bear them shall not be infringed.
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If you talk about rifles, shotguns, and firearms and the right to keep and bear arms of anytype then the constitution supports that right. When you talk about concealed weapons permits - your talking about individual states and their legislative process. Be careful of accusing others about hype when your demonstrating it yourself.
What did I hype? I stated exactly what you just said- it's allowed by state law. Just because you don't like it doesnt mean its hype. I suggested you're buying into hype because you seem to somehow think that something terrible will happen if the most law abiding people among us are able to keep weapons on their person without advertising it while riding roughshod over very valid reasons to do so. What are you afraid of? What are your reasons for disallowing it other than you just dont like it?
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Xiahou
Point out to me where I said guns are toys, why did you mention that?
Well it seems you wanted to put words in my mouth - so to speak - so I used the same arguementive style that you started.
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A store owner has a right to know what if I carry a weapon into the store? Why? It's irrelevant and has no bearing on why Im there or what bussiness Im conducting. I suppose they do have a right to know everything I have on my person, technically, since its private property but I've no right to go out of my way to inform them of everything I have on me.
When you go onto private property - that individual has certain rights that take presdence (SP) over yours
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If they want to know for some bizarre reason they can search people as they enter or use metal detectors or whatnot. Its their 'right' to do so afterall. Of course me and many others will stay away in droves from a store with such policies. As a matter of fact, in states where 'no firearms' signs are legally binding (not mine) many stores and chains are targetted by letter campaigns and boycotts for trying to keep people from carrying- I can post some examples if you want. Point being, if they want to control what people bring into their stores, the burden is on them- not me.
And its the right of the store owner to decide what he wants carried into his store - not your right.
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I don't know where in the Constitution it says "if you want the right to bear arms - then do so openly". Im pretty sure it just says that the right to keep and bear them shall not be infringed.
The constitution clearly states you have the right to keep and bear arms. Concealed permits are a legislative act and requires a license.
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What did I hype? I stated exactly what you just said- it's allowed by state law. Just because you don't like it doesnt mean its hype. I suggested you're buying into hype because you seem to somehow think that something terrible will happen if the most law abiding people among us are able to keep weapons on their person without advertising it while riding roughshod over very valid reasons to do so. What are you afraid of? What are your reasons for disallowing it other than you just dont like it?
And that is not what I stated - I said I don't beleive in concealed permits - not that law abiding individuals shouldn't have the right to arm themselves. When accusing others of hype - make sure you understand their arguement.
A concealed weapon does not offer you anymore protection from criminal behaviors then being aware of the situations around you. What am I afraid of - not much.
My non-support of concealed weapons comes from personal observation, being around weapons since before I can remember, having lived in a rural environment where everyone carries there weapons openly in their vehicles, and being in environment where a criminal has pulled a weapon on me. Guess what if a criminal intends you harm personally - you most likely will not have a chance to get your concealed weapon out, and in an environment where you might be able to use it - I doubt the average concealed gun carrying individual has the training to fire a weapon in a stressful situation. Police - who are trained in firing their weapon in stress - have enough problems as it is.
When I am in a situation I rather know who is armed and who is not. I have also worked in several convience stores while in college and was held up twice by armed robbers. If a customer in the store at the time was carrying a concealed weapon - the situation would of turned out differently. I was fixing my vehicle in the run down area and approached by a bleeding teenager being followed by the gang that initiated him, where talking allowed me to take the teenager to the hospital - where a concealed weapon might have allowed a false bravo to happen - instead of talking the gang into allowing me to take the teenager to the hospital - violence might have happened. Like I have stated - I am not afraid of much.
But I am worried about the direction a society is taking when individuals believe that teachers should be armed and carrying concealed weapons into the classroom - verus teaching childern. Which from the hype you accused me of - seems to be that you support the hype reasons for allowing teachers to carry weapons into the school.
Like I have stated in other gun threads - I support the 2nd Admendment. But don't give me the hype reasons that one must have a concealed weapon to protect oneself.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
"My non-support of concealed weapons comes from personal observation, being around weapons since before I can remember, having lived in a rural environment where everyone carries there weapons openly in their vehicles, and being in environment where a criminal has pulled a weapon on me. Guess what if a criminal intends you harm personally - you most likely will not have a chance to get your concealed weapon out, and in an environment where you might be able to use it - I doubt the average concealed gun carrying individual has the training to fire a weapon in a stressful situation. Police - who are trained in firing their weapon in stress - have enough problems as it is."
Many local ranges have tatical training courses and after that you can go to IDPA shoots. What they will do is set up real life scenarios and you have to go through them and you have to try and hit the heart or head.
And many ccw holders go to places like this to train http://www.thunderranchinc.com/
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
Many local ranges have tatical training courses and after that you can go to IDPA shoots. What they will do is set up real life scenarios and you have to go through them and you have to try and hit the heart or head.
And how many concealed weapons permit holders go through this training?
How many go through this training on a regular basis to remain in condition for stressful situation involving firearms? Does the concealed weapons permit holder go through the same training regime as a Police Officer? How many Police Officers are unsuccessful in firing their weapons accurately in a stressful situation?
Care to guess where I got this little bit of information about Police Officers and how effective they are in shoot-outs. When I was training the Oklahoma National Guard - the Battalion CSM of one unit was the Chief Investigator for the Oklahoma State Police who's main job for the state was to investigate every police officer death.
Most officer deaths that he investigated showed that the officer fired and emptied his weapon without hitting the criminal, and his revolver was empty, empty shells in his pocket, and the reload cyclinder in his hand.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
I think the chance of the US government attempting to take away the freedoms of the people is nil. For home defense there are better investments than an assault gun. The fact that homeowners could have such guns is useful as a deterrent to criminals though.
I don't care about the ban either way.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
Most police are NOT good shots most of them shoot at qualifying that is it. The local range owner was saying that except for a few of the older cops that come in the rest are not nearly as good as any of the regulars that come. Even the swat team in my home town are horrible.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by ceasar010
Most police are NOT good shots most of them shoot at qualifying that is it. The local range owner was saying that except for a few of the older cops that come in the rest are not nearly as good as any of the regulars that come. Even the swat team in my home town are horrible.
Nice information - but your not answering the questions. I am a better shot then many police officers myself - however that doesn't qualify me to fire a weapon in a stressful situation.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
I Agree with you on part of that ccw in ohio lets the instructor decide what the class has. there are some top notch classes. But I have heard of one place where if you can hit a 9 inch circle with your gun bench rested at 15 feet they will let you have your permit :help: . Not all seek further instruction and many of them have never been shooting before.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by ceasar010
I Agree with you on part of that ccw in ohio lets the instructor decide what the class has. there are some top notch classes. But I have heard of one place where if you can hit a 9 inch circle with your gun bench rested at 15 feet they will let you have your permit :help: . Not all seek further instruction and many of them have never been shooting before.
Damn, if you cant hit a 9" circle at 150 ft you shouldn't have a gun, I would say 4 out of 5 hits on a man size target at 600 feet is reasonable, with optical sights of course ~;)
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Redleg
When you go onto private property - that individual has certain rights that take presdence (SP) over yours
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And its the right of the store owner to decide what he wants carried into his store - not your right.
Where do you shop Redleg? Do they make you empty your pockets when you enter a convenience store? Sure they have a right to stop whoever they want from entering their property- but, again, when its a public place of bussiness, the burden is on the store to identify people they don't want to do bussiness with and to inform them of it. Its extremely foolish to think that banning concealed carry in a store would solve anything- people that want to conceal a weapon and use it for criminal purposes will respect no such signs or "rights" of the owners
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A concealed weapon does not offer you anymore protection from criminal behaviors then being aware of the situations around you. What am I afraid of - not much.
How's that? I'd rather be both aware of my situation and armed. If you think you've accidentally wondered into a dangerous situation, the first thing you should do is leave. But, if leaving is no longer safe or possible it'd sure be nice to have a firearm to defend myself with.
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Guess what if a criminal intends you harm personally - you most likely will not have a chance to get your concealed weapon out, and in an environment where you might be able to use it - I doubt the average concealed gun carrying individual has the training to fire a weapon in a stressful situation. Police - who are trained in firing their weapon in stress - have enough problems as it is.
What evidence do you have for that assumption? If you'd like, I can find you many instances of people using concealed weapons to successfully defend themselves- but it seems to me you've already drawn all of the conclusions yourself. If one is carrying concealed properly, it should take virtually no more time to draw than it does if carrying openly- sometimes it could even be faster. As has been said, I bet many police are wose shots than your average person who carries concealed on a regular basis.
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When I am in a situation I rather know who is armed and who is not.
And you honestly think that banning concealed carry permits will allow for this?
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I was fixing my vehicle in the run down area and approached by a bleeding teenager being followed by the gang that initiated him, where talking allowed me to take the teenager to the hospital - where a concealed weapon might have allowed a false bravo to happen - instead of talking the gang into allowing me to take the teenager to the hospital - violence might have happened.
Had you shot in that situation you could've likely been tried for it unless your life was in imminent danger. If you think that carrying a weapon gives you false bravado, then I would say you have no bussiness carrying any sort of weapon.
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But I am worried about the direction a society is taking when individuals believe that teachers should be armed and carrying concealed weapons into the classroom - verus teaching childern.
I too think they should be teaching children, I don't think I ever said otherwise. I also think, those that choose to do so, should be allowed to take steps to defend themselves and their students should the need arise.
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Like I have stated in other gun threads - I support the 2nd Admendment. But don't give me the hype reasons that one must have a concealed weapon to protect oneself.
If by "support" you mean hunters and farmers should be able to have and use guns, then its not much support at all. You still have yet to present credible reasons why people shouldnt be able to carry handguns on their person- concealed or otherwise.
The real irony here is while you advocate open carry and rail against concealed carry, according to Texas law OPEN carry of handguns is illegal- concealed is the only way of keeping a handgun on your person legally and only with a permit.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
I think the chance of the US government attempting to take away the freedoms of the people is nil. For home defense there are better investments than an assault gun. The fact that homeowners could have such guns is useful as a deterrent to criminals though.
Yep, its a great deterrent. Surveys of criminals have shown that even more than the police, or prison time.. they fear armed citizens.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Xiahou
Where do you shop Redleg? Do they make you empty your pockets when you enter a convenience store? Sure they have a right to stop whoever they want from entering their property- but, again, when its a public place of bussiness, the burden is on the store to identify people they don't want to do bussiness with and to inform them of it. Its extremely foolish to think that banning concealed carry in a store would solve anything- people that want to conceal a weapon and use it for criminal purposes will respect no such signs or "rights" of the owners
I shop in a whole bunch of different locations - some that are not in the favorable parts of town. And I still see no reason to carry a concealed weapon. So your are advocating that your rights take overwhelming consideration over the property owners?
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How's that? I'd rather be both aware of my situation and armed. If you think you've accidentally wondered into a dangerous situation, the first thing you should do is leave. But, if leaving is no longer safe or possible it'd sure be nice to have a firearm to defend myself with.
If your aware of your surroundings and what the situation is - then there is no need to go armed.
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What evidence do you have for that assumption? If you'd like, I can find you many instances of people using concealed weapons to successfully defend themselves- but it seems to me you've already drawn all of the conclusions yourself. If one is carrying concealed properly, it should take virtually no more time to draw than it does if carrying openly- sometimes it could even be faster. As has been said, I bet many police are wose shots than your average person who carries concealed on a regular basis.
And I can find many instances where carrying a concealed weapon did more harm then good.
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And you honestly think that banning concealed carry permits will allow for this? Had you shot in that situation you could've likely been tried for it unless your life was in imminent danger. If you think that carrying a weapon gives you false bravado, then I would say you have no bussiness carrying any sort of weapon.
Mixing the apple with the orange again - I have stated that its an individual state legislative process concerning concealed permits. That I am against concealed permits does not mean that I advocate going and ban them. Let the legislative process work, the way its intend to. And yes I see to much evidence on this board of false bravado concerning weapons from several different posters in this forum. Plus I see it out on the streets. Give me my mind to keep myself out of harm's way. Like I said I don't need a weapon to protect myself from possible harm - my mind and paying attention to my surroundings have worked for close to 40 years now.
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I too think they should be teaching children, I don't think I ever said otherwise. I also think, those that choose to do so, should be allowed to take steps to defend themselves and their students should the need arise.
Not in the schools - weapons in the hands of untrained school teachers - yea right.
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If by "support" you mean hunters and farmers should be able to have and use guns, then its not much support at all. You still have yet to present credible reasons why people shouldnt be able to carry handguns on their person- concealed or otherwise.
The constitution states we have the right to keep and bear arms - I support that concept. The concealed weapons permit - is a legislative process not part of that admendment. I don't need to have a credible reason in your opinion for supporting a position on what is a legislative process, because its a simple matter of principle and how one thinks about the current law. However it seems that your one main reason to have a concealed permit - is to override the private property owner's right to know what people are bringing onto his property.
Talking about credible reasons for having a concealed weapon - you have not presented anything creditable yourself.
Like I have stated don't accuse other's of hype when you yourself are guilty of the very thing.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Xiahou
The real irony here is while you advocate open carry and rail against concealed carry, according to Texas law OPEN carry of handguns is illegal- concealed is the only way of keeping a handgun on your person legally and only with a permit.
I don't carry a weapon - so its absolutely no Irony at all. And then you might want to check the law out a little more closely.
Unlawful Carrying Weapons (Texas Penal Code)
A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his person a handgun, illegal knife or club.
Except as provided in Subsection (c), an offense under this section is a class A misdemeanor.
An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if it occurs on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.
and the futher part of the penal code
Section 46.03 - Non-Applicable (Texas Penal Code)
The provisions of Section 46.02 of this code do not apply to a person;
in the actual discharge of his official duties as a member of the armed forces or national guard or a guard employed by a penal institution;
on his own premises or premises under his control unless he is an employee or agent of the owner and his primary responsibility is to act in the capacity of a private security guard to protect person or property, in which event he must comply with subdivision (5) of this section;
traveling;
engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity if the weapon is a type commonly used in that activity;
who holds a security officer commission issued by the Texas Board of Private Investigators and Private Security agencies, if:
he is engaged in the performance of his duties as a security officer or traveling to and from his place of assignment;
he is wearing a distinctive uniform, and
the weapon is in plain view, or
6. who is a peace officer
Care to guess how many states I have lived in? Texas isn't even where I was born. Making assumptions again - your starting to show why its always bad to assume.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
Of course there are exceptions- for soldiers, police, prison guards, ect. I hope that really isnt a suprise to anyone. The fact remains that open carry of handguns in TX is illegal for the general public- you havent refuted that.
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I don't carry a weapon - so its absolutely no Irony at all. And then you might want to check the law out a little more closely.
I never thought you carried, but you are saying over and over that everyone should open carry if they're going to carry at all, when all the while someone could get arrested for doing so in the state where you live.
Again, I ask you to explain what awful things will happen if law abiding citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons. And please don't refer to criminals do (they're almost never permit holders) or what you would do if you carried (you admit you dont).
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Xiahou
Of course there are exceptions- for soldiers, police, prison guards, ect. I hope that really isnt a suprise to anyone. The fact remains that open carry of handguns in TX is illegal for the general public- you havent refuted that.
And is irrevelant to my point about concealed weapon permits. No need to refute it all all.
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I never thought you carried, but you are saying over and over that everyone should open carry if they're going to carry at all, when all the while someone could get arrested for doing so in the state where you live.
Now your getting there. What reason is there to carry a sidearm in today's world. There are very few reasons for carrying a weapon on the public street. If your scared of criminals and fearful of being a victim of a crime - then you have absolutely no business carrying a weapon in the first place.
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Again, I ask you to explain what awful things will happen if law abiding citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons. And please don't refer to criminals do (they're almost never permit holders) or what you would do if you carried (you admit you dont).
Never said there was an awful thing that will happen if law abiding citizens have concealed weapons. All I stated was the the vast majority of those that carry concealed weapons are not adequately trained in the use of the weapon nor are they trained to fire a weapon in a stressful situtation.
That is the direction you wish to assume of my position on them. Just stated that I am against concealed weapon permits.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Redleg
Now your getting there. What reason is there to carry a sidearm in today's world. There are very few reasons for carrying a weapon on the public street. If your scared of criminals and fearful of being a victim of a crime - then you have absolutely no business carrying a weapon in the first place.
There are plenty of reasons. Read a few here.
A few samples:
Columbia, South Carolina: As two gas station employees left work just after midnight, two men attempted to rob them, beating them about the head and neck with a shovel handle. The male employee broke away long enough to draw a handgun from his pocket and shot at his attacker, who later died.
Detroit, Michigan: A mentally disturbed man,veiled that the President was going to have him killed, and started firing at people in passing cars. A man at the scene who had a permit to carry a concealed handgun fired shots that forced the attacker to run away.
West Palm Beach, Florida: After being beaten during a robbery at his home, a home owner began carrying a handgun in his pocket. When another robber attacked him just two days later the homeowner shot and wounded his assailant.
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Never said there was an awful thing that will happen if law abiding citizens have concealed weapons. All I stated was the the vast majority of those that carry concealed weapons are not adequately trained in the use of the weapon nor are they trained to fire a weapon in a stressful situtation.
Do you know how many times more people police accidentally shoot and kill than concealed permit holders? The numbers of people accidentally killed by a legally held concealed weapon is almost nil, whereas police accidentally kill hundreds. Maybe you should be more concerned about police carrying handguns? If your argument amound to concealed carry being bad because permit holders could possibly do something bad, by accident while having no evidence to support that view Id say its not a very strong position.
You claim to be libertarian right? Read this when you get some time- maybe it can make a dent. ~;)
edit: You know, I used to hold the same view about concealed weapon permits. I bumped into a guy in college who said he had one- it was very unnerving to me to think that this nobody could be toting around a gun. Years later, after I was married, my wife began pressuring me to get a handgun for when I wasn't around (her mother had defended herself from a possible rape using one before). I thought sure, why not- I will enjoy target shooting with it at least.. So, like I always do when I'm going to spend hundreds of dollars on something, I spent some time on the net trying to make sure I got the best for my money. I invariably came across many arguments on both sides- and it opened my eyes. I now know many people who have permits and not one of them isnt a decent, level-headed guy who is easy to get along with.
BTW, I got a really great gun too- Ruger GP-100. ~D
http://ruger.com/Firearms/images/Products/53L.gif
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Xiahou
There are plenty of reasons.
Read a few here.
A few samples:
Columbia, South Carolina: As two gas station employees left work just after midnight, two men attempted to rob them, beating them about the head and neck with a shovel handle. The male employee broke away long enough to draw a handgun from his pocket and shot at his attacker, who later died.
Detroit, Michigan: A mentally disturbed man,veiled that the President was going to have him killed, and started firing at people in passing cars. A man at the scene who had a permit to carry a concealed handgun fired shots that forced the attacker to run away.
West Palm Beach, Florida: After being beaten during a robbery at his home, a home owner began carrying a handgun in his pocket. When another robber attacked him just two days later the homeowner shot and wounded his assailant.
Should I now post an article that shows the opposite side of the story on concealed weapons. Because they are out there as well.
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Do you know how many times more people police accidentally shoot and kill than concealed permit holders? The numbers of people accidentally killed by a legally held concealed weapon is almost nil, whereas police accidentally kill hundreds. Maybe you should be more concerned about police carrying handguns? If your argument amound to concealed carry being bad because permit holders could possibly do something bad, by accident while having no evidence to support that view Id say its not a very strong position.
LOL - your attempting a circular arguement because I don't agree with concealed permits. The police have a job to do which they are paid for by the taxpayer to do such a job. So you want to remove all police and allow citizens to carry weapons with concealed permits? Because I can easily state that from this attempt of an arguement.
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You claim to be libertarian right? Read
this when you get some time- maybe it can make a dent. ~;)
Yep I am more of a libertarian then anything else - and because I am - doesn't mean I have to agree with everything or disagree with it either. Another attempt at straw-man arguement I see.
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edit: You know, I used to hold the same view about concealed weapon permits. I bumped into a guy in college who said he had one- it was very unnerving to me to think that this nobody could be toting around a gun. Years later, after I was married, my wife began pressuring me to get a handgun for when I wasn't around (her mother had defended herself from a possible rape using one before). I thought sure, why not- I will enjoy target shooting with it at least.. So, like I always do when I'm going to spend hundreds of dollars on something, I spent some time on the net trying to make sure I got the best for my money. I invariably came across many arguments on both sides- and it opened my eyes. I now know many people who have permits and not one of them isnt a decent, level-headed guy who is easy to get along with.
And again you miss the point. You seem to be claiming that its a right - in this you are incorrect. Concealed weapons are a legislative act - not a constitutional one. If I can not disagree with the current law, and voice my opinion on that law - then why am I living in the United States?
I got one better then that. A fully functional '73 winchester - been in the family for generations. Plus an assortment of rifles and shotguns I leave at my father's house.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Redleg
Should I now post an article that shows the opposite side of the story on concealed weapons. Because they are out there as well.
First of all- you said "What reason is there to carry a sidearm in today's world." So, I gave you some very good examples of why it can be beneficial. But yeah- I'll call that... find me 3 published news stories of permit holders using their concealed weapons in the commission of a violent crime.
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And again you miss the point. You seem to be claiming that its a right - in this you are incorrect. Concealed weapons are a legislative act - not a constitutional one. If I can not disagree with the current law, and voice my opinion on that law - then why am I living in the United States?
I do say its a right- however, that is irrelevant to this discussion since it is also passed as law by state legislatures. You're free to disagree with a law or even a constitutional right if you want- its none of my concern. What I want to get to the root of, for the benefit of anyone else who may still be reading this, is why? You still haven't said why law abiding citizens who meet strict requirements should not be allowed to obtain government permits allowing them to legally carry concealed weapons. What harm comes from it? If your argument is that there's no need for it we can start adding alot more things to your list that we are legally allowed to do but don't need.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
I have my CCW permit, but I never actually carry on my person. I have it because if you ever get pulled over on your way to the gun range, and your gun isn't in plain sight (and who really drives around like that) you could be in a world of hurt if the officer doesn't care for armed citizens and decides to write you up for carrying concealed (concealed in your vehicle counts) without a permit.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Don Corleone
I have my CCW permit, but I never actually carry on my person. I have it because if you ever get pulled over on your way to the gun range, and your gun isn't in plain sight (and who really drives around like that) you could be in a world of hurt if the officer doesn't care for armed citizens and decides to write you up for carrying concealed (concealed in your vehicle counts) without a permit.
That was basically the reason that I originally got mine. :bow:
Of course, now I probably carry a good 2/3 of the time I'm out...
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
Xihauo i know of a gun forum you might like pm me if you want to join it. (there is a political section but alot of paranoid yahoos hang out in there) the rest of it is just people talking about tatics gear fire arms etc. I wont post it here cause i dont want the anti gun people to go over there and start trouble.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Xiahou
First of all- you said "What reason is there to carry a sidearm in today's world." So, I gave you some very good examples of why it can be beneficial. But yeah- I'll call that... find me 3 published news stories of permit holders using their concealed weapons in the commission of a violent crime.
Again what is the reason to carry a concealed weapon. Are you living in fear of the criminal element that is out there? Are you living completely unaware of your surroundings? I don't think so - neither do I live in a fear state of what criminals might or might not do.
So you want to see stories - I guess you might want to check out the Bradley site about concealed weapons permits and thier holders.
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The gun lobby claims that only law-abiding citizens get CCW permits. But an August 2000 study by the Violence Policy Center revealed that, from January 1996 through April 2000, the arrest rate for weapon-related offenses among Texas concealed handgun license holders was 66% higher than that of the general adult population of Texas. CCW license holders are committing crimes - including murder, rape, assault and burglary - but because the gun lobby makes it difficult if not impossible for the public to determine if a shooter has a CCW license in most states, the full story has not yet been told.
Now of course its a baised site. http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=ccw
just like the one where you got your stories from.
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I do say its a right- however, that is irrelevant to this discussion since it is also passed as law by state legislatures. You're free to disagree with a law or even a constitutional right if you want- its none of my concern. What I want to get to the root of, for the benefit of anyone else who may still be reading this, is why? You still haven't said why law abiding citizens who meet strict requirements should not be allowed to obtain government permits allowing them to legally carry concealed weapons. What harm comes from it? If your argument is that there's no need for it we can start adding alot more things to your list that we are legally allowed to do but don't need.
The need to carry a weapon in today's society is different then it was back when the constitution was written. Now the constitution states we have a right to keep and bear arms. Which I support because its a constitutional right, and it can be shown where weapons are a functional tool of society. The concealed weapons permits are not as strict as you would like every one to believe. But that is also a different subject. You accused me of hype on the issue - but it seems again you are falling into that same trap yourself.
I don't have to provide any overwelming reason why I disagree with the concealed weapons permit - other then the fact I do not believe in the necessity for a conceal weapons permit. For every situation where you show how an individual protected himself on the city street with his concealed weapon - there is another story about how it is misused.
Do you want an overwhelming justification for my postion about Concealed Weapons permits to convince you of the error of your thinking. Frankly is not going to happen when you are claiming that its a fundmental right granted by the constitution. And can you provide an overwelming reason why conceal weapons permits should be granted?
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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I got one better then that. A fully functional '73 winchester - been in the family for generations.
ichi = jealous
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
the bradies are more biased then the nra and thats pretty hard to do :dizzy2:
listen to their little propaganda recording on the home page notice it never says how these killers get guns ~:confused:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Redleg
For every situation where you show how an individual protected himself on the city street with his concealed weapon - there is another story about how it is misused.
Im still waiting for even 1.
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Do you want an overwhelming justification for my postion about Concealed Weapons permits to convince you of the error of your thinking. Frankly is not going to happen when you are claiming that its a fundmental right granted by the constitution. And can you provide an overwelming reason why conceal weapons permits should be granted?
Any overwhelming reasons? I've said it several times- it saves lives.
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
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Originally Posted by Xiahou
Im still waiting for even 1.
And I am waiting for 1 from you also
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Any overwhelming reasons? I've said it several times- it saves lives.
Same thing can be said about not having concealed weapons permit
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Re: !!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!
Here are some statistics i found not sure if the first one is true
Medical Advice:
>>
>> Number of physicians in the US: 700,000. Accidental deaths
>> caused by physicians per year: 120,000. Accidental deaths per
>> physician.... 0.171
>> (U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Services)
>>
>> Number of gun owners in the US: 80,000,000. Number of
>> accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) 1,500.
>> Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.0000188
>>
>> Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more
>> dangerous than gun owners.
>>
>> "FACT: Not everyone has a gun, but everyone has at least
>> one doctor."
>>
>> Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban
>> doctors before this gets out of hand. As a Public Health
>> Measure, I have withheld the statistics on lawyers for fear that
>> the shock could cause people
>> to seek medical aid.
Here is a good reason to carry read the bottom lines
http://www.amfire.com/php/container....earmsFacts.htm
Here is why the awb is pointless
http://www.amfire.com/php/container....olentCrime.htm
